ottawaguy2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck Ben Knight brought the idea up, again, on the "It's Called Football" podcast, of expanding the V-Cup. I'm mulling the idea also with the thought of the CSL being "certified" by the CSA (I still don't know what that means). How about a March Madness style cup with 16 teams, the 10 CSL teams and the top 6 from the senior nationals of the previous year. So in 2009 it would have been, Calgary Callies, Corfinium de St-Leonard, Avondale Islanders, Gorge FC, Halifax City and AEK London. If the CSL expands in the future, then the number from the Seniors drops. These 16 teams play down for the 1 spot to make the V-Cup a 4 team round robin. There would be 4 sites each hosting 4 teams for 3 games in the first round and one site for a final four. Two long weekends of a commitment for these clubs. The breakdown by province for the 16 teams would be: BC-1, AB-1, SK-0, MB-0, ON-10, QC-2, NB-0, PE-1, NS-1, NL-0. I know it is still very GTA based but if that is where the money is then you just have to follow it. Maybe it shows a team like Corfinium that they can play in the CSL on regular basis. Maybe a few extra players get noticed and signed to pro contracts. I LIKE THIS. This is how the CSA needs to be thinking if the game is ever to expand outside of the big 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottawaguy2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy You're probably right. Only Montreal could lose by five goals. [8D][}] After watching an INCREDIBLE game played by the Ottawa Fury last night (how they got they get that good with only a few months of playing time a year is beyond me)I would love to see TFC or a USL-1 club take them on. Those guys are hungry to prove themselves and they know what they're doing out there. The PDL deserves much more credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottawaguy2009 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy Ok... Once again I'd like to point out that it was CONCACAF that made the call on limiting the tournament to the three teams. The CSA was involved in the discussions, as were the three teams, but ultimately it was up to CONCACAF to sign off. At this time they weren't willing to agree to sanction a tournament that involved a team outside of the three that are in it. I've asked CSA executives directly what would happen if another Canadian city came in at the USL-1 level. There was no hesitation - they would be involved in the tournament. Getting the CSL/PCSL/whateverSL involved right now isn’t realistic. It would do nothing but create a greater degree of fixture congestion for the fully pro teams and I’m not sure how valuable it would be to have some semi-pro team losing by five goals. I am in full agreement that we need to develop our pro infrastructure at the division two level and I fully support the CSL’s efforts to try and become a more national league. I hope that they can re-establish an open cup and I feel that such a competition would be a worthwhile goal for those teams along with the PDL clubs, the PCSL teams and top armature teams across the country. as far as having those teams compete with the ‘Caps, TFC and Impact…are you sure they even want to. I mean, who would pay for it? It’s not like the V-Cup is making boatloads of money right now so that it can underwrite travel expenses for the Doug’s Plumbing Greater Peterborough Old Boys… I would love to see a fourth team in it -- another USL-1 team This bias that USL-1 and MLS squads are so superior to anything and everything else in Canada is ridiculous. It's frustrating because it holds back on success. As vpjr said, the CSL would rise to the challenge in grand fashion if a team from its league was able to compete. The CSL is wealthy enough to cover some of the expenses for a squad competing in the V - Cup. CSL teams have a fair amount of money and I'm sure they could pay their way as well. I don't feel that a CSL team is any more qualified than a PDL or strong men's amateur team to make a run for the V - Cup and therefore I would prefer an Open Cup format so that PDL, PCSL, CSL, etc. teams could compete. The English FA Cup is brilliant. I love how it allows the underdog to have a fair crack at success. (Crooked bookies and match fixers no doubt make a killing on games where the odds are 350 : 1. When a team like "Devonshire" FC takes on a bigname club and "wins" an upset) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by ottawaguy2009 This bias that USL-1 and MLS squads are so superior to anything and everything else in Canada is ridiculous. Why would Canada be any different than anywhere else in the world? MLS and USL-1 are fully professional teams. Everything else, at best, is semi-pro. Stating the obvious -- that fully pro teams are superior to semi-pro clubs -- does not disrespect the semi-pro teams. It is reality. MLS--USL-1--------CSL/PCSL/PDL In my opinion that's ^ the way the game shakes out in this country right now. We need it to be: MLS--USL-1--CSL/PCSL/PDL ...before it makes a lot of sense to start worrying about getting those teams into the V-Cup. I know some will argue that the way to close that gap is to fast track them in (which partly ignores that it's CONCACAF's call), but, to me, it's more important that those "division 3" teams all get on the same page and institute a truly national competition with themselves first. Let's get a national open cup back up and running and after a couple years evaluate whether the winner is V-Cup ready (I like Dino's suggestion to have a play-in with the previous season's last place team in the V-Cup.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy to me, it's more important that those "division 3" teams all get on the same page and institute a truly national competition with themselves first. Let's get a national open cup back up and running and after a couple years evaluate whether the winner is V-Cup ready (I like Dino's suggestion to have a play-in with the previous season's last place team in the V-Cup.) just to re-iterate, we already have a national senior championship. The only thing that is wrong with it is that players on a pro contract are ineligible, even if that pro contract only nets them $100 per game. that is stupid and the CSA and provinces need to look at changing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 There is another problem (actually there really are a gazillion) that nobody has yet mentioned. The last time I checked, Trois Rivieres had the best record in CSL. And, after a trying first year, the TFC Academy is not doing too bad (third place in the same division). That's quite the progress for a second year team and at that pace and with kind of resources and support that these two team have, it might not be inconceiveable that they win ( maybe even consistently). What kind of V-Cup do you then have? senior teams playing academies or reserve sides. What is emerging in canada is something that doesn't resemble the structures in the British Iles but rather something more like Germany where the lower divsions consist of feeder teams for upper divison sides. Hence, more reasons why you cant have an open cup in the british style mode like some are advocating here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Free kick There is another problem (actually there really are a gazillion) that nobody has yet mentioned. The last time I checked, Trois Rivieres had the best record in CSL. And, after a trying first year, the TFC Academy is not doing too bad (third place in the same division). That's quite the progress for a second year team and at that pace and with kind of resources and support that these two team have, it might not be inconceiveable that they win ( maybe even consistently). What kind of V-Cup do you then have? senior teams playing academies or reserve sides. If they add a rule stating that an organization can only enter their top-of-the-pyramid side, there would be no issue. No associated academy or reserve sides allowed. Otherwise you might see the 1st team "loaning" players to their reserve side. So you will not see TFC Academy, TR Attack, etc. playing in the V-Cup qualifiers if CSL teams are ever admitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Free kick There is another problem (actually there really are a gazillion) that nobody has yet mentioned. The last time I checked, Trois Rivieres had the best record in CSL. And, after a trying first year, the TFC Academy is not doing too bad (third place in the same division). That's quite the progress for a second year team and at that pace and with kind of resources and support that these two team have, it might not be inconceiveable that they win ( maybe even consistently). What kind of V-Cup do you then have? senior teams playing academies or reserve sides. What is emerging in canada is something that doesn't resemble the structures in the British Iles but rather something more like Germany where the lower divsions consist of feeder teams for upper divison sides. Hence, more reasons why you cant have an open cup in the british style mode like some are advocating here. It is not uncommon for both the full and amateur sides of a German club to be in the DFB Pokal. What is your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Free kick There is another problem (actually there really are a gazillion) that nobody has yet mentioned. The last time I checked, Trois Rivieres had the best record in CSL. And, after a trying first year, the TFC Academy is not doing too bad (third place in the same division). That's quite the progress for a second year team and at that pace and with kind of resources and support that these two team have, it might not be inconceiveable that they win ( maybe even consistently). What kind of V-Cup do you then have? senior teams playing academies or reserve sides. What is emerging in canada is something that doesn't resemble the structures in the British Iles but rather something more like Germany where the lower divsions consist of feeder teams for upper divison sides. Hence, more reasons why you cant have an open cup in the british style mode like some are advocating here. Germany does have an open Cup in the style of England, the only difference being that there is a regional competition in each Bundesland for the lower clubs before they get to enter the national stage with the pro clubs. The reserve teams do take part and sometimes do well in these competitions. There are rules about who can play for the reserve sides but sometimes players from the first team are loaned and there are have been abuses. A player can only play for one team in a competition though so it is mostly fringe 1st team players who are loaned. However, when Dynamo Dresden was banned from the competition for a year they loaned some of their players to the reserve team which was still allowed to compete. Abuses like this can be avoided though by making proper rules for the competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Only two years ag, there were many on this board who said that Montreal Impact and Vancouver Whitecaps could not compete past September, because they disband for the season. That has been shown a non-reason, and would be applicable to anyother club in Canada, CSL, PDL PSL or whatever. There may be many reasons not to have an Open Cup beyond the present structure, but the "disbanding at the end of the season" should not be one of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Vic Until then, why not have the best PDL team play the best CSL team for the honour? Who is the best PDL team in Canada ? Thunder Bay Chill won the PDL Championship last season, but otherwise, it would be very difficult to simply choose a PDL club as 'the best' without some interlocking games. The top senior amateur teams in Canada could make a reasonable claim that they are just as good as many PDL clubs. How about the PCSL, which has been operating for many years ? There's simply no way to pick a top team from all the options/leagues spanning Canada. VPjr makes a very good point about the crazy PDL season, but what I do find very promising about some of these PDL clubs, is they appear to be the only clubs laying the foundation for bigger and better things. Thunder Bay are getting respectable crowds, Victoria and London are getting great crowds and rumours persist that Toronto Lynx and Victoria Highlanders may mover up a division. There's many teams across Canada that can field quality squads that could easily compete with many of these PDL squads, but from an organizational perspective, they get a zero grade. Many of these clubs may play them as equals on the field, but they aren't getting 500-1700 in attendance, and personally I find that far more encouraging for the development of the game, than results on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 quote:Originally posted by beachesl Only two years ag, there were many on this board who said that Montreal Impact and Vancouver Whitecaps could not compete past September, because they disband for the season. That has been shown a non-reason, and would be applicable to anyother club in Canada, CSL, PDL PSL or whatever. There may be many reasons not to have an Open Cup beyond the present structure, but the "disbanding at the end of the season" should not be one of them In the case of the PDL teams it is a valid point though. The PDL is full of college players who can not play past September. Unless this was to change there is no way that the PDL teams could take part in CCL. On the other hand there would be the argument that it would be completely unlikely that a PDL team would win the tournament so that might be unimportant. Nevertheless, it is pretty hard to enter teams in a competition if they were unable to complete it. The other leagues also have some college players but are not as dependent on them and would have a lot more flexibility in the unlikely event that they would win the tournament. I am still against a team from this level entering the competition because it would skew the results too much especially goal differential. However, it would indeed provide some incentives for these teams and leagues to improve themselves. I think a good compromise would be a two game series between the winner a Cup competition of the amateur and semi-pro teams and the 3rd place team from the previous year which has already been mentioned for the 3rd spot in the Cup. One would assume the third place team would win this series until the semi-pro clubs raised their level enough to compete in the Voyageurs Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly In the case of the PDL teams it is a valid point though. The PDL is full of college players who can not play past September. Unless this was to change there is no way that the PDL teams could take part in CCL. On the other hand there would be the argument that it would be completely unlikely that a PDL team would win the tournament so that might be unimportant. Nevertheless, it is pretty hard to enter teams in a competition if they were unable to complete it. The other leagues also have some college players but are not as dependent on them and would have a lot more flexibility in the unlikely event that they would win the tournament. I am still against a team from this level entering the competition because it would skew the results too much especially goal differential. However, it would indeed provide some incentives for these teams and leagues to improve themselves. I think a good compromise would be a two game series between the winner a Cup competition of the amateur and semi-pro teams and the 3rd place team from the previous year which has already been mentioned for the 3rd spot in the Cup. One would assume the third place team would win this series until the semi-pro clubs raised their level enough to compete in the Voyageurs Cup. Your falling into the bias of "team" the tournament is for clubs, you nominate your best team of players on any given week and play in the tournament, each player when played becomes cup tied. A club with a PDL team might enter its normal PDL roster in June or July and then add players in October or Novemeber as required. Its a process to advance clubs not teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottawaguy2009 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury dont forget that ottawa is now 11 - 0 -4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 quote:Originally posted by ottawaguy2009 How are the crowds ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Trillium Your falling into the bias of "team" the tournament is for clubs, you nominate your best team of players on any given week and play in the tournament, each player when played becomes cup tied. A club with a PDL team might enter its normal PDL roster in June or July and then add players in October or Novemeber as required. Its a process to advance clubs not teams. I am 100% biased towards teams or in other words defining a club by its team. Any competition that allowed clubs to field a completely different team in the 2nd half of the competition to the one they fielded in the first half a couple of months ago would be ridiculous and illegitimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nazzer Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly I am 100% biased towards teams or in other words defining a club by its team. Any competition that allowed clubs to field a completely different team in the 2nd half of the competition to the one they fielded in the first half a couple of months ago would be ridiculous and illegitimate. Both the UEFA and CONCACAF Champions League do this. Teams must submit a player list for the prelim and group stage, and then before the knockout stage they submit a new player list. This accomodates the transfer window and is not ridiculous at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 ^^^I am not sure the exact rules of the different lists though I image there must be some regarding how many new players the team is allowed to introduce on the second list. However, we are not talking about adding a few transferred players to the team like is common in these competitions but rather the PDL teams would have to enter almost an entirely different team. This I have never seen in UEFA Cup or Champions League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly ^^^I am not sure the exact rules of the different lists though I image there must be some regarding how many new players the team is allowed to introduce on the second list. However, we are not talking about adding a few transferred players to the team like is common in these competitions but rather the PDL teams would have to enter almost an entirely different team. This I have never seen in UEFA Cup or Champions League. The only restriction you need is to Cup tie a player, that is once you play for one club in the competition you cannot play for another. Otherwise it should be open season.. put out your best team each time, and progress through .. if you get some big paydays on the way and sign a new player so be it .. your advancing the club and making the competition one driven on improvement and excellence. The reason you dont see the same thing in Europe is your talking about players who dont go on to college in the fall .. the PDL is rather unique in that quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury They average about 300-350 a game. Could be better with a bit of publicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themodelcitizen Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Why not minimize the amount of extra games by having the 3 top-level teams (hopefully soon joined by Hamilton in USL-1) have to play a playoff against a lower-level team. They'll likely crush them, but at least do it to prove their right to be in the final 3-team round-robin (preserving the existing setup) and make it a "true" FA Cup. Early rounds (straight knockout with teams drawn randomly against teams from their zone): Ontario/Quebec zone</u> CSL teams PDL teams (FC London, Thunder Bay Chill, Toronto Lynx etc) West zone</u> PCSL teams PDL teams (Abbotsford, Victoria etc) This leaves open dramatic ties like FC London - London City, Lynx - Croatia, etc. Semifinals</u> Toronto FC, Vancouver and Montreal drawn against one each of the West zone winner, the Ontario/Quebec zone winner, and the Canadian Challenge Cup winner. Hypothetically this means any amateur/semi-pro team in Canada could qualify through the Challenge Cup, no? Or am I missing semi-pro leagues somewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 ^ Hmm. Interesting set-up. Perhaps acceptable in the future. The challenge right now is that the Voyageurs Cup (Nutrilite Canadian Championships) has only ONE SPOT for the CONCACAF CL. So from a feasiblity perspective, having it only open to professional teams (3) is reasonable. The costs involved (travel, liability, salary, venue hosting, etc) are too exorbitant for a semi-pro or amateur team. American teams (amateur and professional) have the US Open Cup, but then again they have several spots for the CCL. Do Mexican amateur or semi-pro squads compete against the pro teams for their CCL spots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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