RJB Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Pride? Credibility? If they crash out of this tournament, is that saying something about them and MLS, or something about USL-1? To answer my own question, I think that it would be a huge stain on the club, albeit a temporary one. Cup losses always disappear the next season, however if the 'Caps or Impact are in the Champions League at their expense, and then they finish near the bottom of MLS, not only could heads roll at the club, but the casual fan could then have more ammunition against the level of play in MLS. On the flip side, if they win, it's really no big deal because people will say they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSwede Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 I agree with everything you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Who is expecting TFC to win it? They are so bad it's not funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Pretty much nailed it. But I'm not so cynical. I think this tourny can benefit TFC, one way or another, no matter the final results. You know though, this is an important "getting to know you" introduction between the MLS and Division 1 clubs. TFC has an important stake in both Vancouver and especially Montreal putting up a valid fight in this tourny. Showing well enough that TFC shouldn't take things for granted (and damn it, they better not). Montreal can improve the argument for joining MLS sooner rather than later by doing well in the tourny and that could be as important to TFC as much as winning. The whole MLS experience in Toronto would be refreshed with Montreal's entry into the league, even with a couple of bad seasons under TFC's belt. Would be a real shot in the arm Montreal coming in and by '09-'10, TFC may need it. So I don't know. TFC can still win if they lose if you follow me. Profiting from Montreals increased attractiveness to MLS. And I also agree that administrative changes could occur as a result of TFC crashing out. Not so sure that wouldn't also be a positive. Sure, a bitter medicine, but possibly by this fall a medicine which no one will be able to deny is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead Who is expecting TFC to win it? They are so bad it's not funny. Pretty much any casual fan or someone who doesn't know the intricacies of each team, only the league in which they play. No one in Canada would normally expect a lower-league team to beat a major league team. Even people here in Montreal who don't follow the Impact think that they will "get killed", because they just assume that TFC is that much better because they're an MLS team. Would anyone bet on the Manitoba Moose against the LA Kings? If you know the players and understand the variables, it's another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesW Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 After last season and the way this one could go, I'm not sure how much pride TFC has left to lose. Or perhaps they have too much and yet another fall will help them? Or should I say, help Mo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead Who is expecting TFC to win it? They are so bad it's not funny. With respect, the only arrogance and assumptions I'm seeing about this tournament is coming from the non-TFC fans. So, I'll add fuel to the fire. Toronto will win. Why? Because the worst MLS team is better than the best USL team. If this tournament was a single knock out, I'd give the USL teams a shot. Over the course of a home and home...no. The USL sides simply don't have players that are the quality of Edu, Wynne, Brennan, Robert, Robinson or, if the rumours are true--which they appear to be--Guevara. Even players like Samuel, Dichio, Dunivant and Sutton would be stars in USL. We all saw how Toronto's USL signings did last year. Prediction: Toronto - 10 pts (edit - I originally posted an impossible 11 pts) Montreal - 5 Vancouver - 1 pt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdroze Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 quote:We all saw how Toronto's USL signings did last year. Ditto for this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy With respect, the only arrogance and assumptions I'm seeing about this tournament is coming from the non-TFC fans. So, I'll add fuel to the fire. Toronto will win. Why? Because the worst MLS team is better than the best USL team. If this tournament was a single knock out, I'd give the USL teams a shot. Over the course of a home and home...no. The USL sides simply don't have players that are the quality of Edu, Wynne, Brennan, Robert, Robinson or, if the rumours are true--which they appear to be--Guevara. Even players like Samuel, Dichio, Dunivant and Sutton would be stars in USL. We all saw how Toronto's USL signings did last year. Prediction: Toronto - 11 pts Montreal - 5 Vancouver - 1 pt Well of course...TFC is Canada's only "real" professional "footy" team <insert sarcasm here> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead Who is expecting TFC to win it? They are so bad it's not funny. They are bad for MLS, that is for sure. But I still expect them to beat Montreal and Vancouver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piltdownman Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 From watching both leagues very regularly. I can say that the bottom half of the MLS is quite comparable to top half of the USL. Montreal always has a very solid USL club, and with their performance and signings in preseason this year I fully expect them to win both the Canada Cup and the USL first Division. And I say that as a Whitecaps supporter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piltdownman Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 quote:Originally posted by rdroze Ditto for this year. Compared to the rest of TFC's signings? [:I] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 quote:Originally posted by piltdownman From watching both leagues very regularly. I can say that the bottom half of the MLS is quite comparable to top half of the USL. Montreal always has a very solid USL club, and with their performance and signings in preseason this year I fully expect them to win both the Canada Cup and the USL first Division. And I say that as a Whitecaps supporter. As it stands TODAY, I believe that the Impact will win the Canada Cup. TFC's current roster is no better than a good USL1 side in my opinion. However, things change quickly. With the addition of Robert and Guevara (apparently), TFC's midfield will be upgraded. They still need help on D and at least 1 more viable option at forward but they should be a lot tougher to match up against for either Impact or Whitecaps. I definitely look forward to the Toronto-Montreal game in Montreal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy With respect, the only arrogance and assumptions I'm seeing about this tournament is coming from the non-TFC fans. I'll take the comment about being arrogant (you must be talking about me since you quoted me) as a compliment. With respect, the rest of your quote is just donkey balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead I'll take the comment about being arrogant (you must be talking about me since you quoted me) as a compliment. With respect, the rest of your quote is just donkey balls. Thankfully, we'll get to see just who is talking donkey balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvroArrow Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Wasn't Marco Velez a defender of some calibre in the USL (captained Puerto Rico Islanders)? He doesn't seem to be quite as dazzling for Toronto in MLS thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvroArrow Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Wasn't Marco Velez a defender of some calibre in the USL (captained Puerto Rico Islanders)? He doesn't seem to be quite as dazzling for Toronto in MLS thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Honestly, let’s compare rosters…. Vancouver: Nicholas Addlery – cut from MLS after 11 appearances for DCU in 2007 Vicente Arze – From NCAA Luca Bellisomo – From CIS Adrian Cann – Cut from MLS after limited appearances for Colorado Jeff Clarke – career USL level player Srdjan Djekanovic – cut from TFC after a limited amount of games Tony Donatelli – Career USLer Takashi Hirano – Veteran player with lots of experience in J-League and former Japanese international Omar Jarun – young, non-MLS drafted USLer Jason Jordan – career USLer Diaz Kambere – from CIS Steve Kindel – briefly played in Belgium third division, USLer since Stefan Leslie – From CIS Geordie Lyall – Cut from English league 2 after brief time, USLer since Lyle Martin – MLS supplemental draft pick, played entire career in USL Dave Morris – Career USLer Martin Nash – played 16 games in England league 2, and 15 games in league 1. Career USLer otherwise Jay Nolly – Cut from MLS after playing eight games Eduardo Sebrango - career USLer Alfredo Valente – career USLer Mason Webb – from NCAA Nick Webb – From NCAA Toronto Nana Attakora-Gyan – MLS development player Andrew Boyens – Current New Zealand international. MLS draft pick. Only played in MLS. Jim Brennan – Current Canadian international. Played 10 seasons in England, the majority at the Championship level Jeff Cunningham – Has scored 96 career MLS goals Danny Dichio – Played in the EPL and Serie A in his early career and the CCC prior to coming to MLS Todd Dunivant – Occasional US international. First round MLS pick. Played entire career in MLS. Maurice Edu – Current US International. First overall pick in MLS draft and 2007 MLS rookie of the year. Brian Edwards – from NCAA. MLS draft pick. Gabe Gala – development player Kevin Harmse – Occasional Canadian international. Mostly played in USL prior to moving to MLS in 2007. Tyler Hemming – development player Julius James – From NCAA. First round MLS draft pick Andrea Lombardo – Played youth soccer in Italy before joining TFC as development player. Tyrone Marshall – Current Jamaican international. Career MLSer. Joey Melo – development player Pat Phelan – From NCAA Laurent Robert – Former French international. Played for Newcastle United, Benfica, and Paris Saint Germain and Derby prior to coming to MLS. Carl Robinson – Current Welsh international. Played 12-years in England, mostly at CCC level Tyler Rosenlund – development player. From NCAA Collin Samuel – Current T&T international. Played at the 2006 World Cup. Played in SPL prior to MLS. Jarrod Smith – development player Greg Sutton – Four time USL goaltender of the year Marco Velez – USLer prior to joining MLS Marvell Wynne - First overall pick in MLS draft and occasional US international. Amado Guevara – Honduran international and 2006 MLS MVP If you were to show these rosters to a neutral observer, who do you think they would pick? Yes, a USL side can nick a game now and then, but can you seriously—logically—argue that Toronto shouldn’t be the favourite in this? Different competition, but…USL supporters love to point to US Open Cup results as proof that the league’s teams can play with MLS in competitive fixtures. Rochester won the thing in 1999, you know… Fan fact: Since 1996 when MLS teams started to compete for the trophy 22 of the 24 finalists have been from MLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piltdownman Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 You can't really use Open Cup as any benchmarks. I agree that the best clubs in MLS are better than the best in the USL; however, the real question that the Canada Cup will answer is 'is the best team in the USL better than the worst team in the MLS?' and I for one think Montreal will beat Toronto. I don't know about Vancouver, but Montreal is really strong this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cashcleaner Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 ^ Montreal is REALLY strong this year and I would agree that a match between them and Toronto would be a tight race. Obviously I'm rooting for Toronto, but I won't even begin to predist what the outcome of the tournament will be. Personally, I don't think Montreal is as strong a side as some think, and I don't believe Toronto is going to lay over and take it (like they have been in recent MLS games). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 quote:Fan fact: Since 1996 when MLS teams started to compete for the trophy 22 of the 24 finalists have been from MLS. Go to Top of Page ...and that has absolutely no bearing on whether Toronto FC is a good enough team to beat Montreal and Vancouver. There's no point in bringing up a tournament that no Canadian team takes part in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead ...and that has absolutely no bearing on whether Toronto FC is a good enough team to beat Montreal and Vancouver. There's no point in bringing up a tournament that no Canadian team takes part in. It's the only comparison available that pits USL teams against MLS teams in competitive matches. So, I fail to see how it isn't relevant. What is irrelevant is bringing up what country the clubs play in. They are in US leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 I for one think Montreal will beat Toronto. I don't know about Vancouver, but Montreal is really strong this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Overall TFC has the more impressive looking roster but I think you are being harsh on some of those Montreal players. I don't think Braz was TFC's worst senior player last year and Nunez is a Montreal boy so there's always an asterisk next to the word "cut" considering TFC would pay him about $13,000 to live in Toronto for about 6 months (good luck with that!) whereas if he had the same pitiful payment in Montreal at least he could live at hom - so it may have been his choice or mutually agreed upon. Also Gervais was still used by Yallop well after the 2004 WCQ & Hart was still using him in the 2007 Gold Cup friendlies until he got injured. He's a million miles better than the likes of Marco Velez who is the worst player I have ever seen in a TFC uniform. I'd also say Adrian Cann in Vancouver is better than Velez for that matter. Heck, so is Adam Braz! Now, hopefully we sent Velez back to Puerto Rico & send Marshall back to Jamaica, but until we do....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Overall TFC has the more impressive looking roster but I think you are being harsh on some of those Montreal players. I don't think Braz was TFC's worst senior player last year and Nunez is a Montreal boy so there's always an asterisk next to the word "cut" considering TFC would pay him about $13,000 to live in Toronto for about 6 months (good luck with that!) whereas if he had the same pitiful payment in Montreal at least he could live at hom - so it may have been his choice or mutually agreed upon. Also Gervais was still used by Yallop well after the 2004 WCQ & Hart was still using him in the 2007 Gold Cup friendlies until he got injured. He's a million miles better than the likes of Marco Velez who is the worst player I have ever seen in a TFC uniform. I'd also say Adrian Cann in Vancouver is better than Velez for that matter. Heck, so is Adam Braz! Now, hopefully we sent Velez back to Puerto Rico & send Marshall back to Jamaica, but until we do....... Sure. There is no doubt that there are players in USL that could be middle class MLSers, but chose to play USL for a multitude of reasons (lot the least of which is the development salaries). But, at the top end it isn't close...the worst MLS teams are far superior to the best USL teams. You can't look at those rosters--other than with the most USL biased eyes--and not understand that. TFC could have a bad game in this and lose. But, they aren't going to come out flat in all four. And, I see no way in hell that the USL teams are going to win at BMO. Despite pretty much every TFC supporter posting that they think the games are going to be a challenge and that they aren't 100% certain that TFC will win, there are still many from outside Toronto that are accusing the Toronto fans of being arrogant. It isn't surprising, a knee jerk reaction against all things Toronto is often the norm here. But, it's not accurate either. So, I'm going to play the role of arrogant Toronto guy and say it plainly. This won't be close. Toronto will win. Easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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