TFC off-season - 2017-2018

[harrycoyster]

20 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Is there a big difference in spending between TFC and the Whitecaps if we ignore the DPs?

It would be pretty minimal, but ignoring DPs is ignoring a $14 million gap. The entire Whitecaps team makes a combined $7 million.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

It would be pretty minimal, but ignoring DPs is ignoring a $14 million gap. The entire Whitecaps team makes a combined $7 million.

That's what I thought. It is not a TAM or GAM thing. It's a DP thing.

TFC are not the only team to pay massive DP money...

NYCFC paid Villa and Pirlo nearly 6 million each and shelled out 2 million for Maxi Morales. Yeah, that is 14 million to Toronto's 18 million-ish, but replace Maxi with Lampard (6 million) and NYCFC spent the same amount as TFC.

And...New York was arguably better (with Maxi) when they spent less.

Point being, It is less about the money you pay for DPs and more about finding the right DPs.

Whitecaps could spend TFC money and still struggle because they don't pick DPs well. That's their problem. Has little to do with a lack of spending.

[harrycoyster]

10 minutes ago, Obinna said:

That's what I thought. It is not a TAM or GAM thing. It's a DP thing.

TFC are not the only team to pay massive DP money...

NYCFC paid Villa and Pirlo nearly 6 million each and shelled out 2 million for Maxi Morales. Yeah, that is 14 million to Toronto's 18 million-ish, but replace Maxi with Lampard (6 million) and NYCFC spent the same amount as TFC.

And...New York was arguably better (with Maxi) when they spent less.

Point being, It is less about the money you pay for DPs and more about finding the right DPs.

Whitecaps could spend TFC money and still struggle because they don't pick DPs well. That's their problem. Has little to do with a lack of spending.

 

Pointing out a team that mismanaged their DP money doesn't mean that spending huge money on DPs isn't a major advantage. You're right, its about finding the right DPs...but it's a lot easier to find DPs who will be MLS difference makers when you're spending $6 million on a DP than when you're spending $400k on a DP.

It's fully within TFC's rights to do that, and I wish we did. But TFC would be hard-pressed to be as successful as they are now with a team budget roughly equivalent to what Giovinco makes.

[Obinna]

32 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Pointing out a team that mismanaged their DP money doesn't mean that spending huge money of DPs isn't a major advantage. You're right, its about finding the right DPs...but it's a lot easier to find DPs who will be MLS difference makers when you're spending $6 million on a DP than when you're spending $400k on a DP.

It's fully within TFC's rights to do that, and I wish we did. But TFC would be hard-pressed to be as successful as they are now with a team budget roughly equivalent to what Giovinco makes.

I figured you'd make that counterpoint.

Yes, in theory you can get more production if you spend more, but in reality it doesn't always play out that way.

I think you are overstating it and that's why I am pushing back a bit here.

In reality, spending more on DPs is simply a matter of taking on more risk, that's all. 

If Vancouver haven't figured out how to nail their DPs, they are better off taking less risk.

It's like investing in the stock market. Putting a lot in is only a major advantage if you know what you are doing.

The level of spending is a minor point as far as I am concerned.

 

 

[harrycoyster]

22 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I figured you'd make that counterpoint.

Yes, in theory you can get more production if you spend more, but in reality it doesn't always play out that way.

Sure it doesn't always play out that way, but it does usually play out that way. Only once in the last ten years has a team with a bottom half of the league salary won MLS Cup. 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

There is a big difference now with discretionary TAM. I am pretty sure Vancouver will not be spending nearly what TFC will be. So TFC will likely have 1 or 2 more starters of high quality, plus the extra quality in the 3 DP positions. It doesn’t seem to make a big difference, but when you think about how many goals came from the DP positions in Toronto compared to other lower spending cities it makes a huge difference. Add in players in on discretionary TAM this year and it will make a huge difference.

i do agree that some teams aren’t smart with their DP positions and TAM though. For example, TFC got Vazquez who then had the second most assists in the league. All in all, money makes a huge difference, but only if it’s spent well.

[Bison44]

 So the only spot where a team can be ahead (a have vs a have not) is by paying the 3 DP's more??  My best 3 guys make way more as your best 3 guys but the rest of the roster is paid exactly the same?? I would argue that is still better than the anything goes model you see elsewhere.  The big spending clubs can go WAYYYYYY over on 3 guys...but there is no limit to how much over they can go.  The League would be happy if most clubs brought in 3 big expensive talents. And they can still say we have a semblance of parity because of the cap on the rest of the roster (and provide jobs to american kids that dont rate the huge salaries).  .  

[Obinna]

11 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

All in all, money makes a huge difference, but only if it’s spent well.

@harrycoyster this.

Since Vancouver don't spend small money well, your point is moot, isn't it?

There is no indication they would spend big money well if they decided to go that route.

[Obinna]

TFC have had more success recently than Vancouver, but I think it's a lazy argument to say it's simply down to a lack of spending on Vancouver's part.

It is easy to say "they pay 18 million for DPs we can't match that" without looking deeper.

TFC does not get enough credit for the GAM part of their roster.

A big part of the reason the DPs thrive is because they are supported by a good GAM core. That is one of the differences between them and NYCFC, for example.

Aside from how the DPs mesh with the GAM players, it must be stated that the DPs themselves are good fits with one another.

Bradley and Altidore had prior chemistry with the USMNT

Altidore and Giovinco play together and compound their abilities doing so.

What about Vancouver? Montero comes in on loan to play in a system and position that isn't to his strength. It was painful to watch Robinson try and force a square peg in a round hole. Fortunately they resolved that with Kamara, who should be a better fit, but why not get a similar player last yeat if that's how you are going to play?

Vancouver's issues are far beyond spending. That is a cop out.

 

[harrycoyster]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

TFC have had more success recently than Vancouver, but I think it's a lazy argument to say it's simply down to a lack of spending on Vancouver's part.

Vancouver's issues are far beyond spending. That is a cop out.

 

I've never claimed that. TFC's coach is better, TFC's GM is better, TFC's players under the salary cap are better. TFC is a better run team. 

But to claim that the money TFC spends on DPs doesn't give them a major advantage in MLS is crazy.

 

[Obinna]

15 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I've never claimed that. TFC's coach is better, TFC's GM is better, TFC's players under the salary cap are better. TFC is a better run team. 

But to claim that the money TFC spends on DPs doesn't give them a major advantage in MLS is crazy.

 

Okay, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth there, but if you know that is the case, how can you also claim the money they spend on DPs is a major advantage?

To me, having a good coach and good GM is a far greater advantage than the money they choose to spend.

Spending a lot of money is only a major advantage if you are smart about how you spend it. 

TFC spent poorly in the past. They spent a lot of money in fact, with poor results.

Things changed when management changed and they brought in the right players. They were always high spending, as you know.

[harrycoyster]

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Okay, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth there, but if you know that is the case, how can you also claim the money they spend on DPs is a major advantage?

It is only a major advantage if you are smart about how you spend it. 

TFC spent poorly in the past. They spent a lot of money too, with poor results.

 

Because you are comparing TFC to the Caps. I'm comparing TFC to the rest of the league. There are well run teams in the league that just didn't have the resources to compete. If Columbus or NYRB had an extra $15 million to spend last season, does TFC get out of the east? I'm not sure.

I think those teams have  better coaches,  similar GMs, and a better roster under the cap. They just have almost no money to spend on DPs. 

[Obinna]

Just now, harrycoyster said:

Because you are comparing TFC to the Caps. I'm comparing TFC to the rest of the league. There are well run teams in the league that just didn't have the resources to compete. If Columbus or NYRB had an extra $15 million to spend last season, does TFC get out of the east? I'm not sure.

I think those teams have  better coaches,  similar GMs, and a better roster under the cap. They just have almost no money to spend on DPs. 

NYCFC had that extra money. 

They lost to Columbus. Toronto didn't.

That would suggest that having a good GM / coach is more important than your ability (or decision) to spend.

As an aside, NYRB can probaably afford to spend extra. They choose not to for whatever reason.

[harrycoyster]

7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

NYCFC had that extra money. 

They lost to Columbus. Toronto didn't.

That would suggest that having a good GM / coach is more important than your ability (or decision) to spend.

As an aside, NYRB can probaably afford to spend extra. They choose not to for whatever reason.

You keep bringing up NYCFC, that's not the point. If Columbus and NYRB had TFC level DPs they are in the conversation for best team in the league. TFC isn't better than those teams because of their supporting cast or coaching staff or academy. Nearly every roster move those teams have made in the last 3 years was a home run.They are better because they have $17 million worth of DPs and those teams had a combined $4.5 million last season. That's indisputably why TFC is better. 

 

[Obinna]

Just now, harrycoyster said:

You keep bringing up NYCFC, that's not the point. If Columbus and NYRB had TFC level DPs they are in the conversation for best team in the league. TFC isn't better than those teams because of their supporting cast or coaching staff or academy; they are better because they have $17 million worth of DPs and those teams had a combined $4.5 million last season. That's indisputably why TFC is better. 

 

TFC, NYCFC, NYRB and Columbus are all good teams. We can agree on that.

Now, you are comparing TFC to other teams in MLS and your point is that TFC have an advantage because of what they spend on DPs, right?

So I bring up NYCFC and you don't like that comparison. You like comparing them with Columbus and NYRB to prove your point. I like the NYCFC comparison because it proves my point. 

If Columbus/NYRB spent more on DPs they'd be better.

If NYCFC had a better management team, they'd be better.

Toronto has both. That is the fact why they are indisputably better.

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Obinna said:

If Columbus/NYRB spent more on DPs they'd be better.

And since they don't have ownership willing to do so they are at a sizable disadvantage. That's the only point I was ever making.

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

And since they don't have ownership willing to do so they are at a sizable disadvantage. That's the only point I was ever making.

Yes they would be better only because they have good management behind them. 

First, you compared TFC with the Whitecaps because Vancouver doesn't spend. 

Then you said you were comparing TFC to MLS.

Now you say the only point you were ever trying to make was that Columbus and NYRB are disadvantaged compared to TFC.

Okay man, you are going to have to forgive me for not following your (seemingly shifting) point. 

Cheers

[harrycoyster]

19 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Yes they would be better only because they have good management behind them. 

First, you compared TFC with the Whitecaps because Vancouver doesn't spend. 

Then you said you were comparing TFC to MLS.

Now you say the only point you were ever trying to make was that Columbus and NYRB are disadvantaged compared to TFC.

Okay man, you are going to have to forgive me for not following your (seemingly shifting) point. 

Cheers

I never brought up the Whitecaps, I was asked about them twice. 

I just hate hearing the "we win because we are so well run" argument from the highest spending team in the league. As somebody currently living in New York Yankee territory, I can't believe how many people down here think the Yankees haven't had a significant advantage for the last 100 years.

Anyways, I think our points are stated at this point. 

[dbailey62]

JFC! You two are killing me! I'm turning off the notifier for this thread. I'll be back on Monday! 

[BearcatSA]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 9:03 PM, BearcatSA said:

I really feel that this is now a buying club, not a grow-your-team, for the most part.  They got the dosh to purchase not just DP talent but the league edicts gives them the green light to buy top notch second level support players, especially for the attacking positions.

Minutes are going to be scarce for the younger (Canadian) guys for a long time to come.

I see that they may be signing a young attacking mid from Atletico Bilbao.  Right now, I'd take it with a grain of salt, but it could happen.

[Obinna]

54 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I never brought up the Whitecaps, I was asked about them twice. 

I just hate hearing the "we win because we are so well run" argument from the highest spending team in the league. As somebody currently living in New York Yankee territory, I can't believe how many people down here think the Yankees haven't had a significant advantage for the last 100 years.

Anyways, I think our points are stated at this point. 

I went back and re-read everything and I now see where you are coming from, but I only see your point because you made it clear at the end. 

I think if your point was made clear at the beginning it would have prevented a lot of confusion. And for my part, I should gotten clarity sooner on the point you were trying to make. I should have known things had gone astray when you said you weren't specifically talking about the Whitecaps.

At any rate, I hate that too and as a general rule I dont like teams that buy success. Yankees, Real Madrid, PSG (i'm happy one will be eliminated from UCL), etc.

That being said, we can hardly call it a "yankee" situation. It's MLS man.

I know you aren't saying it's exactly the same, but the fact you'd even make the comparison is a shame. It comes off as a dismissal of how well TFC did to manage the squad and get it to where it is.

It is particularly disrespectful considering how far the club has come. From worst to first essentially, while not really changing the level of investment on the way to the top.

[Obinna]

25 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

I see that they may be signing a young attacking mid from Atletico Bilbao.  Right now, I'd take it with a grain of salt, but it could happen.

He has only played 14 league games for Bilbao. He is a good age though.

Mavinga played a similar number of games for Zenit I think, which are probably a comparable club talent wise, so we could still be looking at a good player here, despite the lack of La Liga games. 

Put up good numbers in the Segunda, which is a strong league. 

[Bison44]

Not to keep this argument going, but it wasnt that long ago (5 years) when the red bulls had 2 DP's making over 10million between them.  And TFC had a couple guy making around 2mil a season (Frings/Deguz). Red bulls paid twice as much for their marquee players as TFC.  Lets not pretend that the red bulls didnt recently outspend most of the league and never won the cup.  We all know that you cant just buy championships.  There are more than 1 way to skin a cat, plenty of recent MLS champs (Portland, SKC, Colorado) didnt have the top heavy DP laden rosters.  So now TFC has finally gotten 3 better than average DP's.  We paid through the nose for them.  They were still lucky to win their first MLS cup.  The DP system still isnt the advantage a NY Yankee team or some of the european giants have with much more open systems.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 15/2/2018 at 1:43 AM, Obinna said:

He has only played 14 league games for Bilbao. He is a good age though.

Mavinga played a similar number of games for Zenit I think, which are probably a comparable club talent wise, so we could still be looking at a good player here, despite the lack of La Liga games. 

Put up good numbers in the Segunda, which is a strong league. 

I can't really read this signing, unless he has some motivation for going to MLS. 

At Bilbao are having a weak season in league, and even then he has not gotten minutes. It is possible he was still on an original contract from before being loaned out last year, and being an academy player (they only play those either born or raised as Basques as you may know), I would imagine he was not making good money. Instead of looking for another half-season loan out or waiting on the bench until season's end, he has made this move. 

He is still going to be bench and late minutes coverage for TFC, would think.

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I can't really read this signing, unless he has some motivation for going to MLS. 

At Bilbao are having a weak season in league, and even then he has not gotten minutes. It is possible he was still on an original contract from before being loaned out last year, and being an academy player (they only play those either born or raised as Basques as you may know), I would imagine he was not making good money. Instead of looking for another half-season loan out or waiting on the bench until season's end, he has made this move. 

He is still going to be bench and late minutes coverage for TFC, would think.

Yeah I know At Bilbao only play Basque players. Similar to Chivas only playing Mexicans. I think it's cool they remain competitive with a limited pool of potential players.

They are not having the best season in the league, but they are in the Europa league and if I recall correctly, he played 5 matches in the group stage, but didn't go a full 90 in any of them. So not great, but not bad. Shows they have some level of trust in him.

He also has a value of 1.8 million pounds (or was it Euros?) On transfermarkt. I know it is largley ficticious and not the best way to judge a player, but at least it's something. That kind of value goes to an MLS starter-type player.

Not saying he will be a starter (if he even signs at all), but I would not be surprised. I checked out his highlights and he looks as clean on the ball as Osorio or Delgado, with perhaps better technique and vision than both.

It is something to get excited about, but lets see if the deal gets done first.