BREAKING NEWS: Rob Friend is leading the Fraser Valley bid in BC

[Unnamed Trialist]

Fraser Valley Mariners were in PDL, then changed to Abbotsford, played out of Bateman Park. So there is tradition, and a lot of clubs and fans. 

The key problem is geographic dispersion, and what fans are used to doing and how they identify. Everyone in the Greater Van area will say they are from Vancouver, and associate with the brand, no problem. And this considering the municipality of Van is actually just marginally larger in population than many of its suburbs, and as a % of Greater Vancouver is low, comparing to other urban centres and their suburbs.

What I am saying is that a fan feels Vancouverite from Surrey and will go to a Caps game, but someone from a neighbouring municipality to Surrey may not do the same. Vancouver is in the corner of the regional district, basically, but still benefits from radial mentality and also road system, public transit.

Hence calling it Fraser Valley, to not be associated with any one. And then, trying to get those 6-8 municipalities and their fan base to come out and support the team. 

Just to add: the most central location would probably be in Cloverdale, in eastern Surrey, or next door in Langley, thinking that the population is actually higher closer in to Vancouver.

Another edit: just saw that they changed the name this year, now called Metro Vancouver Regional District. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Apparently the source on this is a professional journalist so this has to be taken seriously. VWFC 2 are playing in Langley this year (in what is rumoured to be their last season) presumably at the best facility that is currently available in the Fraser valley? The permanent turf markings are horrific but at least there is reasonable width to the field as the facility was clearly designed with soccer very much in mind unlike what tends to happen in Ontario with university stadia, so with a panel type soccer only artificial surface added on top along with some additional bleachers on the track, it might work OK?

Too bad they put the fieldturf in. Looks like it would have been much better for soccer when they had grass;

[grasshopper1917]

I think obviously they would have to look at erecting a pop up stadium if there is any truth to this. I have watched some clips of whitecaps2 playing on that field. If CPL is serious about being a 'tier' one league there is no way they can present their games on fields like this.

[ironcub14]

If you want CPL to be viewed as tier 1 and looking proper on Sportsnet or beIn or whatever, I would have guessed that the proper place to put a CPL club in the Lower Mainland would be at Swangard, or where they had the pop-up at Hastings that the Caps used in their transition to MLS, or somewhere else in Vancouver, Burnaby or Surrey that's easily accessible by transit.

Anything outside of that, including most of the Fraser Valley, seems to me like a CPL2 vibe at best, or at worst, the never-launched BCRT3. Old Vancouver boy here, I do think the Lower Mainland is crucial for the success of CPL, and I really hope for the best there.

[ironcub14]

The little that I know about the Fraser Valley is that the official B.C. regional district is based around Abbotsford and Chilliwack, and if you google the Fraser Valley's official tourism site, then they'll include Langley in there as well.

I can see how people in Surrey would often talk about the Fraser Valley, but I would have always guessed that with Surrey being such a big city on its own, that for the most part, the city would have its unique identity distinct from the Fraser Valley.

In Ontario, I noticed that many people know Surrey as the Hamilton to Vancouver, and it being one of the most populous cities in Canada, but that not many people have heard much about the Fraser Valley or Abbotsford. All that ties into what I commented above about a vibe of CPL1 vs CPL2.

[rob.notenboom]

When evaluating a potential market for a team, I feel like many of us are either completely missing important considerations or giving them less weight than we should. Perhaps this is because we are seeing things through soccer supporters eyes with the additional filter of whether or not we think the league will be a smash success or has already failed before it has launched. 

Now I'm not saying that supporters aren't important. But I would suggest that if an ownership group is looking at aiming to have 6000+ butts in seats, the vast majority of these are not going to be soccer supporters (although that would be something to behold). They are going to be 18-35 yr olds who may or may not have any prior interest in soccer but are keen to do something fun on a weekend. So there are a number of questions the answers to which are pretty important:

- What is the size of the population within a reasonable distance?

- Is the population growing?

- What are the age demographics/How youthful is the population?

- What is the employment rate?

- What is the disposable income of the population?

- How mobile is the population?

- What is the level of 'event competition' for this population?

 

I think the answers to those questions might give some  indicators as to how Friend & Co might judge the viability of Surrey/Langley/etc. 

Also, one only need look at the success of the Saskatchewan Rush's to see some of the answers to those questions in action. Now clearly, the fact that the Rush are winning can't be ignored as a factor in their success. And the fan base of the Rush doesn't necessarily translate to a fanbase for a potential Saskatoon CanPL team. But the Rush situation definitely provides some lessons. And it's a guarantee that CanPL owners are aware of those lessons considering the former Rush president is the current face of the Sask CanPL team. And I have a feeling that the various owners ability to apply those lessons in a soccer context will determine the success or failure of their teams and of the league. 

[ironcub14]

20 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

When evaluating a potential market for a team, I feel like many of us are either completely missing important considerations or giving them less weight than we should. Perhaps this is because we are seeing things through soccer supporters eyes with the additional filter of whether or not we think the league will be a smash success or has already failed before it has launched. 

Now I'm not saying that supporters aren't important. But I would suggest that if an ownership group is looking at aiming to have 6000+ butts in seats, the vast majority of these are not going to be soccer supporters (although that would be something to behold). They are going to be 18-35 yr olds who may or may not have any prior interest in soccer but are keen to do something fun on a weekend. So there are a number of questions the answers to which are pretty important:

- What is the size of the population within a reasonable distance?

- Is the population growing?

- What are the age demographics/How youthful is the population?

- What is the employment rate?

- What is the disposable income of the population?

- How mobile is the population?

- What is the level of 'event competition' for this population?

 

I think the answers to those questions might give some  indicators as to how Friend & Co might judge the viability of Surrey/Langley/etc. 

Also, one only need look at the success of the Saskatchewan Rush's to see some of the answers to those questions in action. Now clearly, the fact that the Rush are winning can't be ignored as a factor in their success. And the fan base of the Rush doesn't necessarily translate to a fanbase for a potential Saskatoon CanPL team. But the Rush situation definitely provides some lessons. And it's a guarantee that CanPL owners are aware of those lessons considering the former Rush president is the current face of the Sask CanPL team. And I have a feeling that the various owners ability to apply those lessons in a soccer context will determine the success or failure of their teams and of the league. 

I think the points you raise above are quite valid, when considering non-MLS cities.

When you consider MLS cities/census metropolitan areas though, such as Greater Vancouver, I think you have to also ask the question of

- How are we going to interest local sports fans in a team that will be competing at a lower competitive level than the MLS club that already represents that CMA?

I think many people would answer that question by saying, we need to draw on the local civic pride of a smaller city within the CMA. My answer though would be to draw more on the soccer fans in that CMA that are already well-established in following the MLS club, and are looking for something that can appeal more to the Canadian pride that comes with supporting CPL/CanMNT/CanWNT.

And for me, that's why I'm always advocating for more of a central location for a CPL club in the Toronto and the Vancouver CMAs. I think CPL has to appeal to soccer fans in those two CMAs that get behind CanMNT, and consider themselves fans of Canadian soccer first and foremost. And the best way to get as many of those fans out to the game is to put the club in a central location within the GTA or Greater Vancouver.

It's not just a pure population game. It's about finding people who are willing to spend money and time to watch NASL-level football.

[Levi Oakey]

@rob.notenboom is wrong. Just wrong. Try again.

;)

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

I hope it's Surrey.  I feel like there is a massive potential for a rivalry with "Vancouver City" so to speak.

Maybe you could do it near the Langley "border" in the hopes that that eventually sort of becomes known as Greater Surrey as opposed to Greater Vancouver.

But I'm also not from there so grain of salt.

[SpursFlu]

You are correct. Langley, White Rock, North Delta are really just suburbs of Surrey and the communities are all very fluid. The issue has always just been the reputation and stigma associated with Surrey. Even communities within Surrey like Cloverdale, Clayton & South Surrey have traditionally not associated themselves as being Surrey. That's all changing with so much positive activity happening in Surrey. Any stereotype you have of Vancouver does not apply to the Surrey area. Anything crappy that happens in Van, like just say a riot, everyone just blames on Surrey. There is a very natural rivalry because the cultures are so different. There really just has never been a platform for that rivalry to take place 

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

You are correct. Langley, White Rock, North Delta are really just suburbs of Surrey and the communities are all very fluid. The issue has always just been the reputation and stigma associated with Surrey. Even communities within Surrey like Cloverdale, Clayton & South Surrey have traditionally not associated themselves as being Surrey. That's all changing with so much positive activity happening in Surrey. Any stereotype you have of Vancouver does not apply to the Surrey area. Anything crappy that happens in Van, like just say a riot, everyone just blames on Surrey. There is a very natural rivalry because the cultures are so different. There really just has never been a platform for that rivalry to take place 

Good point about negative associations regarding Surrey, true enough and has been that way for decades. But wrong saying White Rock or Delta are "suburbs" of Surrey, there is no metropolis/periphery relationship at all between them. A suburb means you go to the centre to get certain basic services, work, go for dinner or entertainment, shop. No one in WR or Delta goes to Surrey for any of that, ever.

I agree, though, that if you play the cards right, you can use the counter-Vancouver argument to build an identity. But you have to do it right, and with a bit of humor. You say "Canadian soccer starts on the south side of the Fraser", something like that (since Caps don't do much for Canadians soccer, just the minimum as I see it).

to @rob.notenboom above, you missed a key factor and I think a big one, I guess I missed it too: the venue has to be of top quality. It has to be accessible, easy to be in, fun for kids. The best example is Nat Bailey where the Canadians play single A baseball, a low level club, but a great venue and atmosphere, phenomenal. You have to do something like that. Which is why imo you have to say no to a track, have fans in close, have a tight friendly atmosphere. Kids hate being far away, they want to see players really close in. 

You also have to be smarter than MLS in a few things like scheduling: play at home at least every 2 weeks all season. MLS leaving fans without home games for almost a month, that is so disrespectful, so a CPL has to look at the little details where it can say "we pick you up and won't let you down".

A CPL with a proper schedule, single purpose or optimal stadiums, however small. Reasonable pricing and simple pricing (not 16 different ticket prices, maximum 3 or 4). Sharp branding of clubs, with overall graphic unity for the league. A bit of humor and fun, since you can't beat MLS on play level. Canadian pride through and through. Promos and incentives. An effort to sign local players and promote them. And then, as I see it, some kind of connection with youth clubs, and younger players working their way onto first teams, as a way of celebrating that sort of narrative.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

5 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

You are correct. Langley, White Rock, North Delta are really just suburbs of Surrey and the communities are all very fluid. The issue has always just been the reputation and stigma associated with Surrey. Even communities within Surrey like Cloverdale, Clayton & South Surrey have traditionally not associated themselves as being Surrey. That's all changing with so much positive activity happening in Surrey. Any stereotype you have of Vancouver does not apply to the Surrey area. Anything crappy that happens in Van, like just say a riot, everyone just blames on Surrey. There is a very natural rivalry because the cultures are so different. There really just has never been a platform for that rivalry to take place 

i'm getting fired up already.

alright so what would be on a surrey crest?

[El Hombre]

24 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

i'm getting fired up already.

alright so what would be on a surrey crest?

Rob Fucking Friend.  What more do you need?

[SpursFlu]

2 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

i'm getting fired up already.

alright so what would be on a surrey crest?

Here is my 2 cents on what I believe to be the 2 viable options 

Fraser Valley United would be the way to go because it cast the largest net. I dont typically like euro monikers but hre it would actually make sense. Fraser Valley is known for agricultural and the Fraser River and any kind of Canadiana imagery plays better there then the more Cascadia type culture along the coast and Van Island. 

Surrey FC (or whatever) would be the more interesting play. If they're working with the city on some kind of stadium plan I could see the city pressuring them to use Surrey because they seem desperate to brand themselves. Even with an attempt to change their image Surrey folks definitely embrace their trouble maker reputation and would consider themselves as kind of a Raiders fan type supporters. Actually silver&black would be a good colour scheme for a Surrey club.

*I think the wildcard for either would be pulling in the Sikh community. They are very passionate, large, energetic and influential not only in the community but the soccer community in that area. I think at least they would be smart to bring in some known people from that community in to the ownership group. If they get indo Canadians in the Valley fully on board it could be a big hit. My 2 cents

 

 

[rob.notenboom]

10 hours ago, ironcub14 said:

I think the points you raise above are quite valid, when considering non-MLS cities.

When you consider MLS cities/census metropolitan areas though, such as Greater Vancouver, I think you have to also ask the question of

- How are we going to interest local sports fans in a team that will be competing at a lower competitive level than the MLS club that already represents that CMA?

I think many people would answer that question by saying, we need to draw on the local civic pride of a smaller city within the CMA. My answer though would be to draw more on the soccer fans in that CMA that are already well-established in following the MLS club, and are looking for something that can appeal more to the Canadian pride that comes with supporting CPL/CanMNT/CanWNT.

And for me, that's why I'm always advocating for more of a central location for a CPL club in the Toronto and the Vancouver CMAs. I think CPL has to appeal to soccer fans in those two CMAs that get behind CanMNT, and consider themselves fans of Canadian soccer first and foremost. And the best way to get as many of those fans out to the game is to put the club in a central location within the GTA or Greater Vancouver.

It's not just a pure population game. It's about finding people who are willing to spend money and time to watch NASL-level football.

A couple of things:

1) Many people who a club will absolutely need to engage will not know the difference between high level and low level soccer (I'd say 50-75% of your initial fan base tbh). If the game is an event, and if it's one of the most fun things to do in the immediate geographical region, then the level of play is not going to make a terribly huge amount of difference to the fan who is simply coming for the event. It will certainly mean something to the hard core supporters and to people who are already soccer fans, so clubs will need to take care of business on that end (make it at least not terrible in year one and have the level steadily increase over the subsequent years).

2) The issue with making a concerted effort to attract many of already established soccer fans that the Caps have for example, is it is almost certainly a losing strategy. You could make the civic pride argument, the Canadian pride argument, the disenfranchised soccer fan/supporter argument. You could put your team in downtown Vancouver, try to win over a bunch of the Caps fans, and when you find that most of the 20,000 people that go to a Caps game don't really care about any of the arguments above, then you're hooped.

The plain and simple fact is that most of the people who these clubs will need to attract would have virtually no interest in being on this forum. Very few people are so soccer obsessed that you can build a fan base out of them. Out of the 6000/game needed for a CanPL club to be financially stable (some quotes say 5000 ... but I'm sticking with the higher number) hard core supporter types that would frequent this board will likely only be 50 or 100 or 200. Even if you reach the lofty heights of 1000 hard core supporters, you are still 5000 short. And there are only so many soccer moms, dads, and kids, so many people who are soccer fans already and are willing to graduate from watching Man U every weekend on TV to come to the stadium, and so many club TDs and coaches who will coax their players to go to games. So basing your success on your ability to attract these groups, in my mind at least, is a recipe for disaster.

You need new fans and you need a lot of them (although 6000 isn't really that large of a number, especially if we are talking about drawing from a population of between 3/4 of a million and a million depending on how you cast your net). And as much as people might think that this is a guarantee that the league is doomed, I'm actually very encouraged. The current 20 somethings might be the first generation of people who are more interested in doing something different than they are in doing what everyone else is doing. And that could be just the thing on which CanPL can capitalize.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

27 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Here is my 2 cents on what I believe to be the 2 viable options 

Fraser Valley United would be the way to go because it cast the largest net. I dont typically like euro monikers but hre it would actually make sense. Fraser Valley is known for agricultural and the Fraser River and any kind of Canadiana imagery plays better there then the more Cascadia type culture along the coast and Van Island. 

Surrey FC (or whatever) would be the more interesting play. If they're working with the city on some kind of stadium plan I could see the city pressuring them to use Surrey because they seem desperate to brand themselves. Even with an attempt to change their image Surrey folks definitely embrace their trouble maker reputation and would consider themselves as kind of a Raiders fan type supporters. Actually silver&black would be a good colour scheme for a Surrey club.

*I think the wildcard for either would be pulling in the Sikh community. They are very passionate, large, energetic and influential not only in the community but the soccer community in that area. I think at least they would be smart to bring in some known people from that community in to the ownership group. If they get indo Canadians in the Valley fully on board it could be a big hit. My 2 cents

 

 

For surrey.. what about dark purple and silver - like deep deep purple.  Kind of like somewhere between the baltimore ravens and the raiders?  any symbols that come to mind?

or perhaps orange as a subtle nod to the sikh community?  Don't like going over the top but a colour is subtle enough

[rob.notenboom]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

to @rob.notenboom above, you missed a key factor and I think a big one, I guess I missed it too: the venue has to be of top quality. It has to be accessible, easy to be in, fun for kids. The best example is Nat Bailey where the Canadians play single A baseball, a low level club, but a great venue and atmosphere, phenomenal. You have to do something like that. Which is why imo you have to say no to a track, have fans in close, have a tight friendly atmosphere. Kids hate being far away, they want to see players really close in. 

I'd agree that that certainly is a factor. A 3rd or 4th rate stadium situation and it would take a ton of work and luck to be able to pull off a game day event such that people would want to keep coming back. A superior stadium situation, one where you are close to the action, one that is soccer specific, and one where the stadium is appropriately located, would be such that the atmosphere might create itself. So I completely agree that stadium situation is very important.

I'm making some assumptions based on some of the things that have been said in the media as well as some of the people involved. I am also drawing on a few things that I know to be true (take that how you will). But I'm less concerned with the stadium situation (and didn't mention it in the post above) not because it's not important (it clearly is in my mind) but because I think the league and owners are critically aware of its importance as well. And if they can't find the right situation they will, reasonably quickly and at a reasonable cost all things considered, create it if they can. That is why we are following the upcoming Halifax City Council vote to approve a pop-up stadium tomorrow and that is why the single mainstream media article on the SK team mentioned building their own stadium regardless of whether the team was in Saskatoon or Regina.

[rob.notenboom]

Edit: technical difficulties

[rob.notenboom]

 

[pasquatch]

I think Rob will find a "friend" in the City of Surrey. They've been very ambitious with the last couple councils in "urbanizing" a centre core in Whalley and I've heard Binnie Park (also Lions training/HQ) as a juicy prospect.

A spot like this, you get the best of everything: rising (young) population density, proximity to restaurants/pubs/shopping, close to SFU Surrey campus, Skytrain for the city folk, "this side of the bridge" for Valley folk. There's more synergy potential in Whalley than anywhere, IMO (even though I love the idea of Swangard) and I think Surrey council would be the people to see it & act on it.

[SpursFlu]

1 hour ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

For surrey.. what about dark purple and silver - like deep deep purple.  Kind of like somewhere between the baltimore ravens and the raiders?  any symbols that come to mind?

or perhaps orange as a subtle nod to the sikh community?  Don't like going over the top but a colour is subtle enough

Your best bet would be red and black. Surrey United is a big club and they're all red. I would emphasize the black for strength. Think Besiktas, Flamengo or Atlanta Falcons. Can't think of any symbolism, maybe just and SFC lettering like Nycfc? As far as Fraser Valley, see Fraser Valley fc logo from the HPL for an example of Fraser valley imagery. That's really all I got

[pasquatch]

Kwantlen or Salish FC for territorial acknowledgement (with permission/cooperation of course).

Needs to happen.

[ironcub14]

13 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

A couple of things:

1) Many people who a club will absolutely need to engage will not know the difference between high level and low level soccer (I'd say 50-75% of your initial fan base tbh). If the game is an event, and if it's one of the most fun things to do in the immediate geographical region, then the level of play is not going to make a terribly huge amount of difference to the fan who is simply coming for the event. It will certainly mean something to the hard core supporters and to people who are already soccer fans, so clubs will need to take care of business on that end (make it at least not terrible in year one and have the level steadily increase over the subsequent years).

2) The issue with making a concerted effort to attract many of already established soccer fans that the Caps have for example, is it is almost certainly a losing strategy. You could make the civic pride argument, the Canadian pride argument, the disenfranchised soccer fan/supporter argument. You could put your team in downtown Vancouver, try to win over a bunch of the Caps fans, and when you find that most of the 20,000 people that go to a Caps game don't really care about any of the arguments above, then you're hooped.

The plain and simple fact is that most of the people who these clubs will need to attract would have virtually no interest in being on this forum. Very few people are so soccer obsessed that you can build a fan base out of them. Out of the 6000/game needed for a CanPL club to be financially stable (some quotes say 5000 ... but I'm sticking with the higher number) hard core supporter types that would frequent this board will likely only be 50 or 100 or 200. Even if you reach the lofty heights of 1000 hard core supporters, you are still 5000 short. And there are only so many soccer moms, dads, and kids, so many people who are soccer fans already and are willing to graduate from watching Man U every weekend on TV to come to the stadium, and so many club TDs and coaches who will coax their players to go to games. So basing your success on your ability to attract these groups, in my mind at least, is a recipe for disaster.

You need new fans and you need a lot of them (although 6000 isn't really that large of a number, especially if we are talking about drawing from a population of between 3/4 of a million and a million depending on how you cast your net). And as much as people might think that this is a guarantee that the league is doomed, I'm actually very encouraged. The current 20 somethings might be the first generation of people who are more interested in doing something different than they are in doing what everyone else is doing. And that could be just the thing on which CanPL can capitalize.

When I was talking about the soccer fans in Greater Vancouver or in the GTA that already follow the Caps or TFC, and are looking for something that can appeal more to the Canadian pride that comes with supporting CPL/CanMNT/CanWNT, I'm not talking just about the guys that go on the V's board to talk CPL/CanMNT.

I'm talking about the guys that go on twitter to talk about CanMNT/Caps/TFC. Or on Facebook groups. Or on the Southsiders or the RPB forums. Or at the pubs pre and post game. I'm also talking about the people that sit in the stadiums watching Caps and TFC while wearing Canada gear, and can talk a bit about the WCQs or the Gold Cup or the WWC. You can find a bunch of them in and outside the supporter sections, all over the stadium.

Or really, just anybody that came to watch Canada play WCQs at BC Place or at BMO Field. We had a solid 15,000+ people at BMO, and 20,000 to 50,000 at BC Place to come watch a Canada WC qualifier over the last few years.

These are the people I am referring to when I talk about Canadian soccer fans. I'm not talking about just the Voyageurs in the supporter sections or on the board. These Canadian soccer fans above are the ones you want to hit up for CPL Toronto and CPL Vancouver.

[ironcub14]

You don't want to rely on people living in the burbs purely, whether they follow CanMNT, Caps or TFC. I have good friends who live in Langley and in Burlington and all these other suburbs who follow European soccer closely and don't care about CanMNT, Caps or TFC at all. These guys might check out 1 or 2 CPL games if it's close by, but they aren't the ones that are going to stick around, they have no interest in NASL-level soccer whatsoever, they don't even have interest in MLS-level soccer, and it has nothing to do with the fact that the stadium is in downtown.

The guys that are going to form the fanbase for CPL in Greater Vancouver and GTA already follow CanMNT, Caps and TFC. And you are going to want to make it as accessible for as many of these fans as possible. Putting the team in one geographical corner of the CMA, as opposed to near the downtown core where they already are used to going for matches, is not going to make it very accessible for many people at all.

TFC II is the best example of a team I have for you where it was initially supported by both TFC supporters, most notably by Inebriatti, and the local Vaughan community, that eventually got less and less support due to it being in the corner of a CMA where it was only accessible by a 45-minute drive from downtown. And the Vaughan suburban appeal isn't there either. The stadium may be crap, and the biggest reason for the terrible attendance TFC II gets, but it most definitely serves as a cautionary tale for CPL if they want to follow the MLS 1.0 suburban strategy for the Big 3. And don't tell me about the 1,200 fans that came last week, those were all school kids on a field trip.

[Macksam]

13 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

For surrey.. what about dark purple and silver - like deep deep purple.  Kind of like somewhere between the baltimore ravens and the raiders?  any symbols that come to mind?

or perhaps orange as a subtle nod to the sikh community?  Don't like going over the top but a colour is subtle enough

Yeah, even though I said catering to one demo would not be for the best, colours are okay. 

Orange is definitely heavily associated with us, and it is one of our main colours, but I think dark royal blue and yellow/gold represent us a little better. 

Have blue as the main colour with yellow as the secondary akin to Boca Juniors for example. One of either Brampton or Surrey should utilize this scheme. It is a great combo.