Canadian Division 1A - Why We Need It

[TFC07]

I find it a little unnerving, honestly, that Ottawa and Edmonton don't consistently get 5k attendance in a legitimate D2 league that includes a team like the Cosmos.  (Granted, when the Cosmos come to town, attendance spikes.  But not every Canadian team will cause an attendance spike).

 

Let's get in depth here.

 

If we have a Canadian "D1" (or whatever you choose to call it)) league, here are my questions.

 

1) Is it amateur, semi-pro or fully pro?  Think carefully.  At fully pro, it HAS to have attendance and sales in every city.  Players cost money.  Can you propose revenue sharing?  Is revenue sharing feasible, would teams that knew they would HAVE to revenue share eventually want to pull out to maximize their profits, instead choosing the NASL route anyways?  That would make Canada a definite D3, D4 regardless.  At the AMATEUR level, the goal of having kids play past a certain age sort of disappears, as eventually a player wants to be paid to continue as a career.

 

2) What are the cities, and how big is the league, to start?  A huge, valid question.  If you are saying Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver, there may be a bit of a CSA battle, but I think you'd still be able to place teams in those cities.  But then you'd have to consider that they'd be in competition with TFC, Whitecaps, etc.  Which is fine.  Now, how many other cities, and where would you place them?  What are your expected attendances?  No matter whether your league is amateur or pro, there are travel costs to consider.

 

3) For your smaller markets, to get it jump started, who are the owners?  What if not enough owners step up?  Is there a contingency plan?  If you build it, they will come? 

 

We already know that CFL owners are looking for professional soccer clubs to play in their stadiums.  This is common knowledge and one of CFL owners openly talk about possible all Canadian league.   I can't speak for other two MLS cities, but Toronto is big enough market to support two soccer teams.  

 

I don't understand why people asking these sort of questions when we sort already have an idea who investors are in this Canadian league.  

[TFC07]

So CSA Should ask NASL to form a Canadian div 2 domestic league. Eight imports 16 Canadians. Cap league at eight teams, minimum 10 k stadium soccer specific after ten years.

Grandfather MLS franchises with playing out rights. Close down any other pro teams playing in USA leagues includes PDL, and US Pro.

 

NASL is American league sanction by USSF.  They will need USSF approval if they want to add more Canadian teams.  Also money wise, investing in NASL isn't good idea unless your goal to play in MLS one day.  

[TFC07]

You're saying the CFL can afford to spend the same amount on a soccer team that it spends on a CFL team?

Also, CFL stadiums don't work. If the average attendance of a Canadian Div 1a league is under 10000, a CFL stadium is too big. And I'm being generous about 10000 because the CSL averaged 4.7k for the 86ers - the attendance for the other teams that folded was worse. MLS showed you have to have soccer specific stadiums to be viable. CFL can't afford to build soccer specific stadiums but using CFL stadiums is not a solution either.

 

So why isn't MLS sticking with SSS requirement?  How come we're getting teams playing in football and even baseball stadiums (NYCFC) if SSS is so important for MLS?  

 

Comparing what happend to 20-30 years ago to now is stupid.  Reality is that there's demand for professional soccer in this country while interest for soccer is all time high in Canada.  Not every Canadian city is going to play in MLS (like old NASL) so CSA needs to find a way to get pro teams into those cities.  NASL isn't working and upside isn't there compare to all Canadian league.  

[madmonte]

We already know that CFL owners are looking for professional soccer clubs to play in their stadiums.  This is common knowledge and one of CFL owners openly talk about possible all Canadian league.   I can't speak for other two MLS cities, but Toronto is big enough market to support two soccer teams.  

 

I don't understand why people asking these sort of questions when we sort already have an idea who investors are in this Canadian league.  

 

I know about Hamilton trying to do that...FC Edmonton isn't...certain games they play at Commonwealth, that's it...and ask anyone in Calgary (myself included) and there's no way I would want to see a Calgary based soccer team start in McMahon stadium, thereby absolutely killing the atmosphere.  

 

You aren't being specific.  We do NOT have an idea who investors are.  We have an idea who one or two investors are.  That doesn't make a league.  

 

I, for one, certainly wouldn't toss out the idea of an NASL Canadian division, but at this point and time, is that something NASL would go for?  I'm sceptical.

[TFC07]

I know about Hamilton trying to do that...FC Edmonton isn't...certain games they play at Commonwealth, that's it...and ask anyone in Calgary (myself included) and there's no way I would want to see a Calgary based soccer team start in McMahon stadium, thereby absolutely killing the atmosphere.  

 

You aren't being specific.  We do NOT have an idea who investors are.  We have an idea who one or two investors are.  That doesn't make a league.  

 

Of course, that's why I said "Sort" have an idea who these investors are.  

[madmonte]

I don't understand why people asking these sort of questions when we sort already have an idea who investors are in this Canadian league.  

 

Of course, that's why I said "Sort" have an idea who these investors are.  

 

You CAN understand why the question needs to be asked then?  I can tell you who potential investors in Calgary are as well.  What about Winnipeg?  WSA Winnipeg is already a team, but that begs the first question...are we pro, or amateur?  Winnipeg, as an example, would need to be convinced that their attendance would be higher than what WSA Winnipeg is currently doing.  Not that it isn't an admirable team, they are doing quite well...but if they were to bump up to pro, they would need higher to be able to pay for travel, salaries, and everything else that goes into becoming a profitable organization that is expected to pay taxes.

 

Let's be real, owners, they do it in part for love of the game...but noone wants to get in on something and lose their shirt.

 

I can understand the argument someone posted on here a while back, can't remember who, that you can't compare opening a McDonalds to opening some food truck on the side of the road.  MLS right now is the McDonalds.  What, then, what Canadian D1 be, and how much would it improve the attendance in Winnipeg?  Significant?  You can't take a one-off woman's game that drew thousands as a benchmark, because that's a one-off event.  You need the people willing to come week in, week out to a much less significant product than a World Cup competitive, very famous woman's team has to offer.  So what, then, is the guess?  That's up to the projections of a potential owner to figure out during risk evaluation, and COULD shut it down before it even starts, right?

 

So again, what is the goal?  Pro, or amateur?  

 

 

(Edit:  In regards to Winnipeg's women's attendance being an indicator of what their league attendance would be, I would like to point out that Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton holds the record for the highest-ever attendance at a women’s international fixture in Canada: a crowd of 47,784 attended the final of the FIFA U-20 Women’s World Cup in 2002 between Canada and USA.  That doesn't mean even 10000 fans attend Edmonton games regularly)

[madmonte]

Going more into depth with WSA Winnipeg and current HOME attendance in USL-PDL, here are current stats for 2014 season.

 

Attendance - 175 (Thunder Bay Chill, May 31)

Attendance - 200 (Thunder Bay Chill, June 1)

Attendance - 110 (Springfield Demise, June 5)

Attendance - 225 (St. Louis Lions, June 8)

Attendance - 200 (Des Moines Menace, July 5)

Attendance - 275 (Des Moines Menace, July 6)

 

Average of around 200 over 6 games.  So clearly, it would need to be considered to be a higher level than PDL currently offers to draw more fans (which means going at least semi-pro, which by the way is an option they can already exercise in the PDL) , and probably have better facilities, both of which cost money.

 

This is not me naysaying.  My GUESS is that if Canada D1 were to be perceived on the same level as, say, NASL, or indeed if Winnipeg were granted an NASL franchise, that Winnipeg in likelihood may be able to scrape between 1000 (low end) - 3000 (high end) fans average per game.  My heart says it would be around 1700-1900, but again that's a guess.  I think it would start that size, and like Edmonton, grow. Is that enough to maintain a pro franchise?

[TFC07]

I think it's pretty clear that division 1 = fully professional league.  Rumour is that investors, CSA and TSN/Bell are working together about possible all Canadian league.  Does that sound like amateur league to you?  When someone like Bob Young rejects USL Pro to play at Tim Horton field, is he doing it so he can have an amateur soccer league to play there instead?  

 

I can't answer your Calgary question, but Winnipeg need another tenant for their new stadium (Investor Field).  Soccer is one option they're looking at.  

[ted]

You don't understand business side of things.  If there's going to be Canadian league, then it needs to be "first division" league where they can get TV money and sponsors.    

 

Well OK then oh amazing business guru please enlighten me how a business is going to succeed when an already established competitor is successful in the key markets required? How much is customer acquisition going to cost when the product is measurably inferior quality? On the same line, how will lesser quality lead to repeat customers and/or positive word of mouth? Why would sponsors invest in a league that is insignificant to the thee largest media markets in Canada?

 

Look, I accept that a full-on D1 league could be built in Canada but as I have said many times before in many different ways it makes no business sense unless you have two things:

1. The transfer of existing MLS and NASL clubs to the new entity.
2. Investors ready to spend a minimum of $30-40M over 3-5 years to establish the league.

If we have those two things, let's do it. Otherwise, let's be realistic.

 

 

I'd just like to see 8 teams play for a spot in the Canadian Championship.

 

We are practically there. We have five currently. If the VWFC USL Pro team is allowed in then we have 6. We could easily add 2 or 3 more USL Pro clubs in the next 3-5 years and maybe one more NASL club.

 

All of that is a much more affordable and realistic business plan than trying to create a whole new league.

[TFC07]

Well OK then oh amazing business guru please enlighten me how a business is going to succeed when an already established competitor is successful in the key markets required? How much is customer acquisition going to cost when the product is measurably inferior quality? On the same line, how will lesser quality lead to repeat customers and/or positive word of mouth? Why would sponsors invest in a league that is insignificant to the thee largest media markets in Canada?

 

Look, I accept that a full-on D1 league could be built in Canada but as I have said many times before in many different ways it makes no business sense unless you have two things:

1. The transfer of existing MLS and NASL clubs to the new entity.
2. Investors ready to spend a minimum of $30-40M over 3-5 years to establish the league.

If we have those two things, let's do it. Otherwise, let's be realistic.

 

 

 

We are practically there. We have five currently. If the VWFC USL Pro team is allowed in then we have 6. We could easily add 2 or 3 more USL Pro clubs in the next 3-5 years and maybe one more NASL club.

 

All of that is a much more affordable and realistic business plan than trying to create a whole new league.

 

MLS isn't doing that well in Canada, best example is their TV ratings which is below 100K per game.  All Canadian league has potential to get better TV ratings than MLS which means more money from sponsors and TV networks.  Secondly, Toronto is capable supporting couple of teams given size of market alone (I can't speak for Vancouver or Montreal). Lastly, we don't need MLS clubs joining all Canadian league while NASL is lost cause (there's no upside in that league to make money) which I am sure current Canadian NASL clubs will be happy to leave NASL if they see potential to make money in all Canadian league.  

 

Quality of league?  In short team, yes it will be "inferior", but if you develop your domestic players, then quality will increase.  

 

So far, we know there are people out there with stadiums that need tenants to make their money back from their investment.   They see an opportunity with professional soccer that they're willing to make that investment.  

[ted]

All Canadian league has potential to get better TV ratings than MLS ...

 

Really? On what, exactly to you base this hypothesis?

 

This would appear to fly in the face of the conventional wisdom that says the people of Toronto want an NFL team because they want to see the best competition.

 That would be like saying that if the Canadian teams in the NHL split off and formed their own league without the Americans the ratings in Canada would go up.

 

Secondly, Toronto is capable supporting couple of teams given size of market alone...we don't need MLS clubs joining all Canadian league...

 

Yes maybe TO could support two teams but not if they are competing for the same audience. I could see two teams in the GTA setting up a lovely derby what I cannot see is fans being asked to choose between teams in different leagues. Nor can I see fans supporting an inferior product that claims to be equal.

 

If MLS exists then without at minimum cooperation and commitment to not compete for business there is no hope of a team being successful while TFC exists.

 

...while NASL is lost cause (there's no upside in that league to make money) which I am sure current Canadian NASL clubs will be happy to leave NASL if they see potential to make money in all Canadian league.  

 

WTF are you talking about? AFAIK the NASL is doing OK in the building/expansion phase. Edmonton is a still  new club and Ottawa literally just got started so you need to do some research on the NASL or point me to the credible reports that NASL is in trouble.

 

That said, because they are still in that phase it may be possible to poach those two teams and bring them in before they become established and the league really has a chance to consolidate.

 

Quality of league?  In short team, yes it will be "inferior", but if you develop your domestic players, then quality will increase.  

 

You are putting the cart before the horse. Sponsors, investors and spectators are not interested in vague promises of better things to come. They want to watch the best games possible played by the best players available. This is Sports Marketing 101 stuff.

 

Unless such a league can demonstrate they have better players than the MLS and NASL teams from the get-go the thing will never get off the ground.

 

So far, we know there are people out there with stadiums that need tenants to make their money back from their investment.   They see an opportunity with professional soccer that they're willing to make that investment.

 

Actually we "know" no such thing. It may be true but all we have right now are rumours. I have no doubt the idea is being floated but for all the reasons I have articulated already I hope that particular trial balloon bursts quickly.

 

Why are you so opposed to a national 3rd division? Even if your plan for a D1 came off we would still need a D3.

[-Hammer-]

So this is a thing

 

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/world-cup-2014/csa-cfl-and-nasl-to-launch-canadian-league-r4701

 

CSN has confirmed that the CSA is involved in negotiations with the CFL and NASL to launch an all-Canadian league.

There could be as many as seven teams involved, all affiliated with local CFL teams and playing in CFL stadiums.

Hamilton's Bob Young is said to be the leading voice on the CFL side. The Ti-Cats owner was previously involved in professional soccer in Carolina. Although he had a falling out with Traffic Sports, sources say that relationship has been healed.

The league would likely begin play in 2016, which the possibility of up to two teams coming in for 2015 (Hamilton and Calgary have been suggested).

The three MLS markets will likely opt out. There is no word on whether teams independent of CFL teams (with the exception of the pre-existing FC Edmonton) will be considered. It's likely that such arrangements would be considered after the league was established.

The league would be affiliated with the American NASL. The format would likely resemble Major League Baseball with two distinct leagues operating in close cooperation. There would be some inter-league play and the Soccer Bowl would likely be played between the two champions.

CSN reached out to the CSA. We will update their response when we receive it. Attempts were also made to reach the CFL.

[madmonte]

I like it, it's actually what others were suggesting...NASL affiliated, like an NASL division. 

[-Hammer-]

I like it, it's actually what others were suggesting...NASL affiliated, like an NASL division. 

 

It makes sense too, basically a Canadian NASL where Canadian expansion is the focus with the occasional US team. It would really help to build rivalries, like say Buffalo/Hamilton, Winnipeg/Minnesota or Windsor/Detroit?

[Soccerpro]

It seems like it has legs, but how are they going to play in cfl stadiums? It just doesn't work.

[ted]

It seems like it has legs, but how are they going to play in cfl stadiums? It just doesn't work.

 

Would it be practical to do what some have suggested and tarp off like in BC Place?

 

I cannot imagine 3/4 empty stadiums looking good on TV.

[An Observer]

On tarping, the same question I asked in another thread on this topic. I said a canadian league needs 3 things to to succeed. Owners tv contract, and right venues. The cfl and tsn bring the first two but playing in cfl stadiums without some sort of tarping and preferably bc place like canopy but on the cheap will mean these guys will lose their shirts. Tarp of the top decks and sides which are behind the goal line, and hang a canopy down from the roof or build some sort of movable one above the concourse between lower and top decks of seating.

[shermanator]

So this makes more sense in terms of being the "1A" that co-exists with NASL and MLS. Really more of a "2A" but whatever.

 

I think tarping would work in Winnipeg, Ottawa and Hamilton where there are separated sections. Somewhere like McMahon would be a little more difficult to do as there is only a single section. 

[Footscray]

This is big news, should almost be a new thread.

 

9 cfl teams and 3 opting out... not sure how they come up with 7 teams?  Makes it kind of too bad that the Caps are starting a USL Pro team in Vancouver....

 

Of the remaining six four make sense to me:

Calgary - ya bad stadium but I could see it working, Flames own them and have one of the richest ownership groups in pro sports, big city with growing population... also there is a lot of noise that the Flames are going to be building a new arena and stadium complex soon.

Hamilton - yep, willing owner and big catchment area with new stadium built with soccer in mind

Edmonton - already there, assuming FC Edmonton would just move into the new conference/league and keep pushing to expand their stadium.  Since the oilers sucked so much money out of the local government surely they will have to support the expansion of Clarke if this happens.

Ottawa - same as Edmonton, assuming since Lansdowne has been renovated with soccer in mind that the stadium is suitable

 

then Winnipeg is a question mark to me; don't really know much about their new stadium, can the lines be removed?  Sounds like there hasn't been much support for their current team but a decent population and a soccer history

 

and

 

Regina - really can't see Regina ever supporting a pro soccer team... am I alone in that?  Their stadium is ancient and the new one is designed solely with CFL in mind.  Small city with limited economic base too.

 

so 4 solid teams, 1 maybe and 1 almost suicidal business venture.

 

Right now there are 8 american NASL teams and will be 11 next year.  Seems like pretty unbalanced conferences.

 

Maybe Quebec City has interested parties, or Halifax?  Could Victoria step up a level?  Surely Toronto could support another team as well, maybe out in one of the huge burbs.

[jonovision]

^ Winnipeg field lines can be removed, as you all saw watching the women's friendly in May. As for support for their "current team", are you referring to the Bombers, or the current PDL soccer team?

[An Observer]

If, and this is a big if, it's only teams playing out of existing cfl stadiums, and there is up to 7, it's interesting to think who the 2 are that are opting out. I think Vancouver is one for sure as can't see the lions taking on the whitecaps and in their own venue. They probably could'nt even get the dates. Also, whitecaps just launched the new west side. That leaves Montreal and Toronto of the mls cities. I couldn't see the existing Argos ownership taking on tfc but if they are sold to mlse, I could see them placing a side in bmo but that would mean 3 teams incl the Argos. Not sure about Montreal either as unlikely to take on the impact and it's a university stadium but a great location. The other possibility is both Montreal and Toronto are in but Regina is out for the reasons outlined above.

[football_world]

MLS isn't doing that well in Canada, best example is their TV ratings which is below 100K per game.  All Canadian league has potential to get better TV ratings than MLS which means more money from sponsors and TV networks.  Secondly, Toronto is capable supporting couple of teams given size of market alone (I can't speak for Vancouver or Montreal). 

 

You can't say a Canadian Domestic league will get better TV ratings than MLS because a Canadian Domestic league won't have Kaka, Villa, Defoe, Henry, Keane, Cahill, etc.  Now there is news that Xavi may also sign with MLS (it isn't finalized yet).  A Canadian vs Canadian team may get more viewers in general, but MLS stars also attract viewers.

[Footscray]

^ Winnipeg field lines can be removed, as you all saw watching the women's friendly in May. As for support for their "current team", are you referring to the Bombers, or the current PDL soccer team?

PDL team, I noted that they are drawing between 110-275 people for their PDL matches (and not taking a run at Winnipeg but that seems low compared to my frame of reference in victoria around 1-1.5K a game)

 

Also thanks for the field lines info... I didn't see the women's friendly.

[football_world]

So if I am reading this right, it sounds like this Canadian league will really be division 2 if they are partnering with the NASL:

 

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/world-cup-2014/csa-cfl-and-nasl-to-launch-canadian-league-r4701

 

Also, according to that article, the MLS markets will "opt out".  That makes a lot of sense - no point competing against the MLS teams in the same city.

 

The main problem they have are the CFL stadiums.  We know from past MLS experience, several thousand people in a 30K stadium will look really bad.  I really hope the CFL and TSN and whatever other owners think this over.  Even if it is division 2 quality, you can't play in CFL size stadiums - that looks bad on TV, bad at the game, and will lead to lower and lower attendance in the long run.

 

And no grid iron football lines.  If they don't get rid of the grid iron football lines, this league will be a joke and will fail rather quickly.  This is something MLS eventually rectified because it was hurting them a lot.

[Dub Narcotic]

The TV ratings won't be worse than non-Canadian MLS games, but that's not a great bar to overcome. This is a big risk, but reasonably exciting. If I'm being honest, I'd rather just see Calgary and Quebec City, and maybe Winnipeg, join the NASL proper and add to that the USL affiliate teams. The level of play is going to be pretty poor and seeing Winnipeg play Regina four or five times in a three-quarters empty CFL stadium will get stale pretty fast.