Canadian Division 1A - Why We Need It

[Redcoatsforever]

I really hope this new league leads to a second champions league slot.

[ted]

So much excitment, so much to reply to...

 

So this makes more sense in terms of being the "1A" that co-exists with NASL and MLS. Really more of a "2A" but whatever.

 

Not "whatever", it will be a D2. No modifiers needed, no silly gamesmanship.

That does not however prevent us from the same fun they have in England (and even here already) of arguing that the top teams in this league are better than the lower table teams in the league above.

 

 

Makes it kind of too bad that the Caps are starting a USL Pro team in Vancouver....

 

That makes no sense. There is no conflict or missed opportunity.

 

The MLS cities are not going to participate in this new league for sound business reasons. At the same time VWFC (and the other two as well) need a D3 club affiliation to develop players.

 

Could Victoria step up a level?

 

Actually that would be two levels and while I would love to say, "yes please!" I don't know if the ownership is ready for that move. I think the supporters and sponsors might be and the facility is barely adequate.

 

 

3.  Having national 3rd division league isn't sustainable which is why CSA has left provincial soccer bodies to create their own league which will be sanction as 3rd division league by CSA. 

 

I have no problem with a regionally-based D3 which could easily be "national" simply by having the CSA involved and ending the season with a tournament amongst the regional top finishers. So, yes a national D3 was entirely feasible but now rendered irrelevant by the move to USL Pro by the MLS clubs.

 

 

For Toronto, if Argos build their own stadium instead of joining BMO field, then except Toronto to join this all Canadian NASL league.  

 

Did you mean "expect"? I think you missed the part where the MLS cities will not be part of this league.

 

 

You also have to keep in mind, all the locations that have CFL teams, typically also have smaller, 5,000 seat facilities available to them, typically because they have a nearby CIS Football stadium as well.

 

That is not really relevant as the whole point of this, from a CFL perspective, is to add event dates to existing CFL stadiums. If they host games in other stadiums then there is no additional revenue benefit to the teams.

 

 

Winnipeg is a fan owned team; how does that work with the USSF requirements for an individual, not corporation entity(?), principal owner (min 35%) to have a net worth of > $20 million? 

 

The CSA sanctions teams in Canada. The USSF rules would not apply to this league which would be affiliated with the NASL but separate. Otherwise they would have to also follow the 25% rule which limited the number of Canadian clubs.

 

[madmonte]

Apologies for the long-winded reply (I seem to be doing that a lot lately) but I think it is a very complex situation with a lot of contributing factors.

And of course the team would be named Inter Regina. If memory serves, that was my first post on the forum several years ago. Chuckle.

 

lol the question I asked demanded a long winded answer, as far as I'm concerned you could have gone on about it for a few more paragraphs, the situation in Saskatchewan is fascinating right now.  Same as Calgary, actually, but everyone talks about Calgary already.

 

I'm sure you're aware Rob, but for the benefit of others that don't know, Saskatoon's population growth...

 

2006: 202,340

2011: 222, 189 (which on it's own is significant growth, but then...)

2014 estimate: 253,000 

 

Which is "holy crap" type growth.  

 

2011 metro population for Saskatoon: 260,000

2014 estimate: 300,000

 

And for those wondering, Saskatoon is the 2nd largest growing city in Canada, while Regina is the 4th fastest growing.

 

If those numbers continue, I THINK Saskatoon will surpass Calgary as the fastest growing city in Canada.  Calgary is about to become bigger than Ottawa for those curious, as well.  (in terms of METROPOLITAN population, which is what matters for sports)

[Kibby]

wow

[Tuscan]

Rob, I have to ask you as a Saskatchewanite, and probably more involved with that scene, a couple of questions.  Enlighten me, you or Jeff...

 

1) Saskatoon and Regina are two of the fast growing cities in Canada.  Growing so fast it is crazy.  Would you say that the market for soccer, with all the new residents, is a lot different now than it would have been even in, say, 2006?  If so, in a positive way, or negative?

 

2) Right now, the CFL is THE ticket in Saskatchewan.  In your opinion, is that because American Football (Canadian?) is the only game in town, or is the CFL just that popular?  The Roughriders don't have a lot of professional competition.  Is it possible that Saskatchewan could go as crazy over another sport, if granted a professional franchise of a different flavor?

 

I'll toss my two cents in here (only to have Teddy shit on them...I kid Ted let's have a pint next time I'm out in your neck of the woods):

 

1. I can vouch for Saskatoon still being a very difficult market to get people out. The Huskies Men's and Women's squads have been very successful for the last 5 years, yet attendance at their games is still limited to people who are connected to the players, so that means they probably both average maybe 100 for a game. Now, the U of S does NOTHING to market the soccer teams, so most probably don't even know they play and where they play. I always have to keep an eye out for the small sign they put up next to the cow barn (I'm not even joking, it's on College Dr and Preston Ave) on the U of S grounds to see when they play. Marketing for a team here would have to be quite intense and would probably have to be backed by some big names before people would take it serious. That's always been the problem for the U of S, there aren't any big corporate names that back the teams, so the general public doesn't feel it's a big enough event to plan for.

 

2. The Riders dominate all sports in the province, and are a subculture associated with popularity and kind of the small town/hickness of the province that people here are so eager to embrace. That's one reason why I secretly despise them, it propagates some of the Deep South of Canada mentality that I really dislike about this place. And don't kid yourself if you don't think Saskatchewan is the deep south of Canada, it is. People will probably need to have the Riders back the teams in both Regina and Saskatoon to add legitimacy, because the Riders have managed to build both legitimacy and big-ticket status with people here. The fact the Riders are the only professional sports team in the province has given them a monopoly that they use to the fullest. Soccer will have a VERY difficult time getting through the Rider marketing noise unless they are somehow involved.

 

Outside of the soccer playing community I really don't know who the target market should be for a pro club here in Saskabush. Most of the people I've already talked to about the new Div 1A prospect for the city laugh at it and think it'll be a joke, because things here tend to be done very poorly. This club would have to hit the ground running and would have to prove legitimacy quickly. A known signing, perhaps a player from one of the MLS clubs, would be crucial to growing that legitimacy.

[rob.notenboom]

lol the question I asked demanded a long winded answer, as far as I'm concerned you could have gone on about it for a few more paragraphs, the situation in Saskatchewan is fascinating right now. Same as Calgary, actually, but everyone talks about Calgary already.

I'm sure you're aware Rob, but for the benefit of others that don't know, Saskatoon's population growth...

2006: 202,340

2011: 222, 189 (which on it's own is significant growth, but then...)

2014 estimate: 253,000

Which is "holy crap" type growth.

2011 metro population for Saskatoon: 260,000

2014 estimate: 300,000

And for those wondering, Saskatoon is the 2nd largest growing city in Canada, while Regina is the 4th fastest growing.

If those numbers continue, I THINK Saskatoon will surpass Calgary as the fastest growing city in Canada. Calgary is about to become bigger than Ottawa for those curious, as well. (in terms of METROPOLITAN population, which is what matters for sports)

A short article to back that up. Holy crap growth describes it nicely.

http://www.leaderpost.com/touch/story.html?id=9553267

[ted]

I'll toss my two cents in here (only to have Teddy shit on them...I kid Ted let's have a pint next time I'm out in your neck of the woods):

 

Challenge accepted!  Oh, and yes please.

 

Oh, wait, I know sweet fuck all about Saskatoon other than my uncle lives there and my dad went to UofS a lifetime ago.

 

Given my dad loves the riders and even went with my mom for the Grey Cup last year I hear what you are saying about the Riders dominance and target market.

[Tuscan]

Challenge accepted!  Oh, and yes please.

 

Oh, wait, I know sweet fuck all about Saskatoon other than my uncle lives there and my dad went to UofS a lifetime ago.

 

Given my dad loves the riders and even went with my mom for the Grey Cup last year I hear what you are saying about the Riders dominance and target market.

 

Excellent, now that I've lulled you into a false sense of security the trolling shall begin hahahaha mwuahahahaha MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!

[football_world]

So much excitment, so much to reply to...

 

 

Not "whatever", it will be a D2. No modifiers needed, no silly gamesmanship.

 

 

That makes no sense. There is no conflict or missed opportunity.

 

The MLS cities are not going to participate in this new league for sound business reasons. At the same time VWFC (and the other two as well) need a D3 club affiliation to develop players.

 

 

If the this domestic league accepts itself as division 2, and they get rid of the ugly grid iron football lines for their matches, I think it would be a good idea for the Whitecaps to have their 2nd div team join in.

 

However, it looks like the Whitecaps have made their decision, even knowing about the possibility of this league.

 

Having said that, using CFL stadiums will not look good on TV or at the game if the attendance is 5K or so.

[Trillium]

A fully Canadian full pro league with league management, marketing and franchise development contracted out by CSA to NASL the business entity.

League owned by CSA sanctioned by CSA.

Annual North American cup challenge #1 in Canada vs #1 in US NASL.

Annual Canadian Voyageurs Cup for CCL spots. MLS teams in V Cup.

Stadium standards min 10k soccer specific after five to seven years for each club, playing on natural grass.

250,000 franchise fee.

Promotion / relegation understood from day one is possible so new clubs know the could face such in future.

No geographic protection for clubs in league.

Start with eight clubs.

Edmonton,Ottawa,Ville de Quebec,Halifax,Calgary,Winnipeg, Toronto,Hamilton.

Eventual expansion.

Victoria, Lower Mainland, Regina, Montreal.

Final configuration 12 clubs in NASL Canada and 3 MLS franchises.

MLS franchises who sell franchise to be moved to USA get automatic entry to NASL Canada.

[ted]

If the this domestic league accepts itself as division 2, and they get rid of the ugly grid iron football lines for their matches, I think it would be a good idea for the Whitecaps to have their 2nd div team join in.

 

Why do the VWFC need a D2 team?

The USL Pro team (D3) provides all they need for development purposes.

 

 

 

A fully Canadian full pro league with league management, marketing and franchise development contracted out by CSA to NASL the business entity.

League owned by CSA sanctioned by CSA.

Annual North American cup challenge #1 in Canada vs #1 in US NASL.

Annual Canadian Voyageurs Cup for CCL spots. MLS teams in V Cup.

Stadium standards min 10k soccer specific after five to seven years for each club, playing on natural grass.

250,000 franchise fee.

Promotion / relegation understood from day one is possible so new clubs know the could face such in future.

No geographic protection for clubs in league.

Start with eight clubs.

Edmonton,Ottawa,Ville de Quebec,Halifax,Calgary,Winnipeg, Toronto,Hamilton.

Eventual expansion.

Victoria, Lower Mainland, Regina, Montreal.

Final configuration 12 clubs in NASL Canada and 3 MLS franchises.

MLS franchises who sell franchise to be moved to USA get automatic entry to NASL Canada.

 

What is all this? Your idea?

[Tuscan]

http://saskatoon.ca/DEPARTMENTS/Community%20Services/PlanningDevelopment/Documents/Mapping/Wall_maps/index_nhoods_map.pdf

Here's the new neighbourhoods growth map for Saskatoon for the next ~20 years I believe. Got the city Twitter account to send me the link. It is quite ambitious, we don't have the roadway infrastructure to handle this in my opinion, but hey, who said city decisions actually have to be reasonable?

 

Trillium, forgot to add Saskatoon to that list of expansion cities. I'll buy you a beer when the Saskatoon club drubs the Ottawa club in the future 

[Redcoatsforever]

Highlights from Duane Rollins podcast providing details:

 

- 3 major sources confirming and multiple other, smaller sources

- CFL Stadiums will use turf with the football lines scrubbed off

- This a big component of the CSA's World Cup 2026 bid

- The business model is similar to that of MLS in Seattle with shared resources between different sports teams

- Lions hoping to buy into Highlanders, Alouettes looking at Quebec City, Argos aren't a part of the proposed league

- The goal of the league is to get a lot more Canadians playing a lot more professional soccer

[youllneverwalkalone]

Are the Argos still owned by Lions owner David Braley? I guess that would explain their non-participation. It seems to me that they will need to build a stadium that's not BMO in the near future to survive, no?

[-Hammer-]

Are the Argos still owned by Lions owner David Braley? I guess that would explain their non-participation. It seems to me that they will need to build a stadium that's not BMO in the near future to survive, no?

 

Yes, and Mr. Braley is getting his affairs in order. Realistically he wants to find the Argos a home and sell them to someone who is actually going to keep the team running. That's why a sale to MLSE has been often talked about. He's also intending on selling the Lions after the Argos have been sold.

[Trillium]

Why do the VWFC need a D2 team?

The USL Pro team (D3) provides all they need for development purposes.

What is all this? Your idea?

Yes. I think it addresses the kick off issues and long term structure being open and merit based.

I have doubt's about CFL running a Canadian Pro soccer league so I think it should not be a MLS single entity or a franchise model.. But real club model with eventual up and down possibility.

With stadia standards up and down is moderated, you need a club from lower levels coming up and support to finance a stadium.. Now if you have stadia which are not all seaters a 10k stadia is not as expensive to develop on a modular base.

I am still convinced the game needs natural turf and Soccer specific stadia where fans can reach out and touch players.

[Trillium]

http://saskatoon.ca/DEPARTMENTS/Community%20Services/PlanningDevelopment/Documents/Mapping/Wall_maps/index_nhoods_map.pdf
 

Here's the new neighbourhoods growth map for Saskatoon for the next ~20 years I believe. Got the city Twitter account to send me the link. It is quite ambitious, we don't have the roadway infrastructure to handle this in my opinion, but hey, who said city decisions actually have to be reasonable?

Trillium, forgot to add Saskatoon to that list of expansion cities. I'll buy you a beer when the Saskatoon club drubs the Ottawa club in the future

I would gladly at a Saskatoon and a number of other city's...

But to make it happen city's need to have 10k stadia to sustain 8k average attendance with average ticket at 20.00 and 15 home dates to sell.

If a city has 150k population you need to draw 5% of the population to go to games... That kind of penetration is achieved by top Junior A hockey franchises with a slightly smaller average ticket price.

Will folks drive thirty minutes or sixty to a game? I think if you have market data on how far folks drive for movies or regional shopping you get a good image of your market area, then you need good marketing that is consistent.

[ted]

Can we pleas stop discussing this topic in mutliple threads and use the first one: http://www.thevoyageurs.org/index.php?/topic/26936-a-new-canadian-league/

 

Could a mod lock the duplicate threads?

[ThiKu]

Told my u17 boys about the Canadian pro league - they were very excited! Selfishly I hope the team doesn't go to Victoria so I can actually support them live. 

 

My best guess is once the league kicks-off with CFL-only, you'll get others joining. Big city centres such as Surrey, BC will want in.

[baulderdash77]

If, big IF, the league takes off and starts to really make a TV draw and good attendance; Do you think that the MLS teams would join it at a later time?

 

The reason I say this is that the Canadian MLS teams get their own sponsors and attendance.  The MLS is not really giving them anything that they're not earning right now.  Their will be a TV deal from the US eventually that may make some money; but there could also be a TV deal in Canada that makes some money.

 

Right now tv ratings in Canada & the US are fairly terrible, so the potential of a real national TV audience for the Canadian MLS teams must offer as much or more money than the MLS arrangement they get now doesn't it?

[lazlo_80]

If, big IF, the league takes off and starts to really make a TV draw and good attendance; Do you think that the MLS teams would join it at a later time?

 

The reason I say this is that the Canadian MLS teams get their own sponsors and attendance.  The MLS is not really giving them anything that they're not earning right now.  Their will be a TV deal from the US eventually that may make some money; but there could also be a TV deal in Canada that makes some money.

 

Right now tv ratings in Canada & the US are fairly terrible, so the potential of a real national TV audience for the Canadian MLS teams must offer as much or more money than the MLS arrangement they get now doesn't it?

 

 

I think your IF is a massive hypothetical. Despite the low ratings of the MLS I'd be surprised if the Canadian league did better or matched the MLS teams in attendance. With that said, when you are part of an American league part of the value is based on potential, despite not being that great right now you're banking on the fact that a population 10x the size of Canada COULD provide far more lucrative tv contracts and such than the all Canadian league ever could.

 

For example, there was a point in time when the CFL and NFL competed for the same players, in fact way back in the day some players would come to Canada because the dollar was stronger than the US dollar. However, the NFL exploded largely because you have a waaaaay bigger market to exploit. once they figured out how to get ratings, advertising and all the rest of the craziness that the NFL is now the CFL was never able to come close to keeping up.

[baulderdash77]

What I mean is this:  The Canadian MLS teams are self sufficient without getting a major national TV contract.  An all Canadian division featuring those teams plus the other Canadian markets has the potential to get CFL-like TV ratings.

 

Would Vancouver, Montreal & Toronto fans stop attending games if they were playing Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa & Hamilton instead of playing Kansas City, New York, Portland and Columbus?  I don't think they would.  In fact I believe there's a chance for better rivalries to develop there.

 

Now would more TV viewers tune in for a Toronto-Hamilton game or a Toronto-New York game?  I'm fairly positive that more would tune in for a Toronto-Hamilton game.

 

Sponsorship dollars go to where TV viewers and attendance go.  So the established MLS teams wouldn't lose sponsors as long as the games are on TV and people are in the stands.

[Keano]

Too bad the Alouettes are looking at QC. I'd be really interested in a Montreal cup derby and I think given the geography of the thing there would be a division of MTL soccer fans along those lines. Plus Percival stadium is magnificent.

[Yohan]

SUM is worth too much over what anything Canadian league can offer

[baulderdash77]

SUM is worth too much over what anything Canadian league can offer

 

How much money does SUM give to the 3 Canadian MLS teams each year?