Canadian Division 1A - Why We Need It

[TFC07]

Really? On what, exactly to you base this hypothesis?

 

This would appear to fly in the face of the conventional wisdom that says the people of Toronto want an NFL team because they want to see the best competition.

 That would be like saying that if the Canadian teams in the NHL split off and formed their own league without the Americans the ratings in Canada would go up.

 

 

Yes maybe TO could support two teams but not if they are competing for the same audience. I could see two teams in the GTA setting up a lovely derby what I cannot see is fans being asked to choose between teams in different leagues. Nor can I see fans supporting an inferior product that claims to be equal.

 

If MLS exists then without at minimum cooperation and commitment to not compete for business there is no hope of a team being successful while TFC exists.

 

 

WTF are you talking about? AFAIK the NASL is doing OK in the building/expansion phase. Edmonton is a still  new club and Ottawa literally just got started so you need to do some research on the NASL or point me to the credible reports that NASL is in trouble.

 

That said, because they are still in that phase it may be possible to poach those two teams and bring them in before they become established and the league really has a chance to consolidate.

 

 

You are putting the cart before the horse. Sponsors, investors and spectators are not interested in vague promises of better things to come. They want to watch the best games possible played by the best players available. This is Sports Marketing 101 stuff.

 

Unless such a league can demonstrate they have better players than the MLS and NASL teams from the get-go the thing will never get off the ground.

 

 

Actually we "know" no such thing. It may be true but all we have right now are rumours. I have no doubt the idea is being floated but for all the reasons I have articulated already I hope that particular trial balloon bursts quickly.

 

Why are you so opposed to a national 3rd division? Even if your plan for a D1 came off we would still need a D3.

 

1. Two Canadian markets playing against each other draw more audience than one Canadian market playing against non-Canadian market.  Look at CFL ratings as proof and compare it to other sports league.

 

2.  How many years have FC Edmonton been in NASL?  Aren't they struggling at the gate and TV ratings?  

 

3.  Having national 3rd division league isn't sustainable which is why CSA has left provincial soccer bodies to create their own league which will be sanction as 3rd division league by CSA.  

 

4. Sponsors,  investors etc. spend into something based on  popularity or has potential to be popular.  MLS isn't popular and their TV ratings is proving that.  MLS has failed to capture Canadian market so far and they haven't done anything to improve on that.  

[TFC07]

You can't say a Canadian Domestic league will get better TV ratings than MLS because a Canadian Domestic league won't have Kaka, Villa, Defoe, Henry, Keane, Cahill, etc.  Now there is news that Xavi may also sign with MLS (it isn't finalized yet).  A Canadian vs Canadian team may get more viewers in general, but MLS stars also attract viewers.

 

CFL doesn't have biggest names in the game, but they still outdraw NFL.  Besides, if owners have deep pockets, then they have potential to sign "big name" players. 

 

EDIT: MLS on Canadian TV haven't capture anything despite "star" power in their league.  So using that part of argument is useless

[Guest ClaytonA]

FWIW of CSL

 

Winnipeg Fury

 

1988 3,207

1989 4,404

1990 4,246

 

Ottawa various

1987 1,537

1988 1,823

 

 

If I were Winnipeg, then I start play in an expanded Winnipeg Soccer Complex, then try a few feature games at Investors, before using Investors regularily.

[TFC07]

FWIW of CSL

 

Winnipeg Fury

 

1988 3,207

1989 4,404

1990 4,246

 

Ottawa various

1987 1,537

1988 1,823

 

Yeah, using stats 20-30 years old is useful to compare today's reality and how it's still the same 

[TFC07]

This is big news, should almost be a new thread.

 

9 cfl teams and 3 opting out... not sure how they come up with 7 teams?  Makes it kind of too bad that the Caps are starting a USL Pro team in Vancouver....

 

Of the remaining six four make sense to me:

Calgary - ya bad stadium but I could see it working, Flames own them and have one of the richest ownership groups in pro sports, big city with growing population... also there is a lot of noise that the Flames are going to be building a new arena and stadium complex soon.

Hamilton - yep, willing owner and big catchment area with new stadium built with soccer in mind

Edmonton - already there, assuming FC Edmonton would just move into the new conference/league and keep pushing to expand their stadium.  Since the oilers sucked so much money out of the local government surely they will have to support the expansion of Clarke if this happens.

Ottawa - same as Edmonton, assuming since Lansdowne has been renovated with soccer in mind that the stadium is suitable

 

then Winnipeg is a question mark to me; don't really know much about their new stadium, can the lines be removed?  Sounds like there hasn't been much support for their current team but a decent population and a soccer history

 

and

 

Regina - really can't see Regina ever supporting a pro soccer team... am I alone in that?  Their stadium is ancient and the new one is designed solely with CFL in mind.  Small city with limited economic base too.

 

so 4 solid teams, 1 maybe and 1 almost suicidal business venture.

 

Right now there are 8 american NASL teams and will be 11 next year.  Seems like pretty unbalanced conferences.

 

Maybe Quebec City has interested parties, or Halifax?  Could Victoria step up a level?  Surely Toronto could support another team as well, maybe out in one of the huge burbs.

 

For Toronto, if Argos build their own stadium instead of joining BMO field, then except Toronto to join this all Canadian NASL league.  

[Guest ClaytonA]

Winnipeg is a fan owned team; how does that work with the USSF requirements for an individual, not corporation entity(?), principal owner (min 35%) to have a net worth of > $20 million?  So is Saskatchewan.  They might still both need money men (or women) beyond the CFL club.

[Guest ClaytonA]

Yeah, using stats 20-30 years old is useful to compare today's reality and how it's still the same 

 

 

Probably more relevant than PDL numbers...

 

What's with the tone?

[Gordon]

Winnipeg is a fan owned team; how does that work with the USSF requirements for an individual, not corporation entity(?), principal owner (min 35%) to have a net worth of > $20 million?  So is Saskatchewan.  They might still both need money men (or women) beyond the CFL club.

Winnipeg Saskatchewan and Edmonton are the community owned cfl teams. One can get to "7" teams with those three opting out and existing Edmonton team opting in.

[-Hammer-]

Here's another link with some more info.

 

http://the11.ca/2014/07/10/nasl-commissioner-talks-about-canadas-long-term-plans-expansion-and-league-format/

 

You also have to keep in mind, all the locations that have CFL teams, typically also have smaller, 5,000 seat facilities available to them, typically because they have a nearby CIS Football stadium as well. It's just a matter of washing the lines out in some cases, and then for your big games, and big friendlies, you move it to the bigger arena. I mean, I know TFC fans would likely some to THF to watch a Hamilton vs Toronto friendly, just because it's the only way to get tickets.

[rob.notenboom]

Regina - really can't see Regina ever supporting a pro soccer team... am I alone in that? Their stadium is ancient and the new one is designed solely with CFL in mind. Small city with limited economic base.

If I take off my 'please, please, please bring any pro-soccer team to Regina' rose-coloured glasses for a moment, I would say the likelihood of drawing enough fans in Regina is 50-50. On the downside, it is a small population, it is not a city with a significant soccer history, and there are very few focal points for the game, so even fans have trouble getting together. In the recent past it was even difficult to get a CMNT game on in most of the sports bars and if you got it on TV you would almost certainly not get sound as well. Finally, part of what makes the Riders work is drawing significant numbers of fans from as far as 4 or 5 hrs drive away and no soccer team is going to draw people from North Battleford of Tisdale in any kind of numbers.

On the upside, there are a ridiculous number of ppl in Regina with a lot of money and little to spend it on. In fact much about the province has changed from when I grew up. SK has gone from a have not province with a have not attitude to one that is young, energetic, wealthy, and with an attitude that anything is possible. It's bizarre.

I can honestly see a team in Regina drawing 5000+ per game. If the Riders are involved this is more likely as everything they are involved in these days turns to gold. In fact they seem to mirror the greater cultural change in the province as a whole. If Jim Hopson tells everyone it's a good thing, ppl will eat it up.

I can also see it being a flop. Really hard to know for sure.

If I remember hearing correctly, the new stadium is designed to be configured for soccer but I can't remember for sure.

Finally Saskatoon would be a better location as the sport has deeper roots in S'toon IMHO.

[deschamp86]

McMahon Stadium (Calgary) - 35,650

Mosaic Stadium (Regina) - 33,427

TD Place Stadium (Ottawa) - 26,559

Tim Hortons Field (Hamilton) - 22,500

PEPS Le Stade Exterieur (Quebec City) - 12,257

University Stadium (Kitchener-Waterloo) - 6,000

TD Waterhouse Stadium (London) - 8,000

Royal Athletic Park (Victoria) - 5,700

University Stadium (Winnipeg) - 5,000

Foote Field (Edmonton) - 3,500

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stadiums_in_Canada

 

Just some info I grabbed off Wikipedia.

 

Here are a list of stadiums that are 3,500-30,000 capacity in each of the respective non-MLS CFL cities. I also added the next largest in population non-CFL Canadian cities.

 

I can't comment on the state of the facilities other than the numbers presented, but most CFL cities have smaller stadia available other than Calgary and Regina

[Footscray]

The thing with Calgary is that the Flames own the CFL team and are collectively one of the richest ownership groups in pro sports.  There have been rumblings for a very long time that they are planning to build an entertainment district type concept with a new hockey and outdoor stadium, what that looks like has been under pretty close wraps though... they've been consciously avoiding the public purse begging and threats to move that went on in Edmonton.

 

Right sizing it is key though.  McMahon is where soccer teams go to die in Calgary, partially because of the awful surface but also because it is cavernous.

[shermanator]

 

McMahon Stadium (Calgary) - 35,650

Mosaic Stadium (Regina) - 33,427

TD Place Stadium (Ottawa) - 26,559

Tim Hortons Field (Hamilton) - 22,500

PEPS Le Stade Exterieur (Quebec City) - 12,257

University Stadium (Kitchener-Waterloo) - 6,000

TD Waterhouse Stadium (London) - 8,000

Royal Athletic Park (Victoria) - 5,700

University Stadium (Winnipeg) - 5,000

Foote Field (Edmonton) - 3,500

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stadiums_in_Canada

 

Just some info I grabbed off Wikipedia.

 

Here are a list of stadiums that are 3,500-30,000 capacity in each of the respective non-MLS CFL cities. I also added the next largest in population non-CFL Canadian cities.

 

I can't comment on the state of the facilities other than the numbers presented, but most CFL cities have smaller stadia available other than Calgary and Regina

 

 

Foote Field is an absolute dump. Clarke Stadium (capacity 4200) is where FC Edmonton currently plays and is the much better option.

[toontownman]

If I take off my 'please, please, please bring any pro-soccer team to Regina' rose-coloured glasses for a moment, I would say the likelihood of drawing enough fans in Regina is 50-50. On the downside, it is a small population, it is not a city with a significant soccer history, and there are very few focal points for the game, so even fans have trouble getting together. In the recent past it was even difficult to get a CMNT game on in most of the sports bars and if you got it on TV you would almost certainly not get sound as well. Finally, part of what makes the Riders work is drawing significant numbers of fans from as far as 4 or 5 hrs drive away and no soccer team is going to draw people from North Battleford of Tisdale in any kind of numbers.

On the upside, there are a ridiculous number of ppl in Regina with a lot of money and little to spend it on. In fact much about the province has changed from when I grew up. SK has gone from a have not province with a have not attitude to one that is young, energetic, wealthy, and with an attitude that anything is possible. It's bizarre.

I can honestly see a team in Regina drawing 5000+ per game. If the Riders are involved this is more likely as everything they are involved in these days turns to gold. In fact they seem to mirror the greater cultural change in the province as a whole. If Jim Hopson tells everyone it's a good thing, ppl will eat it up.

I can also see it being a flop. Really hard to know for sure.

If I remember hearing correctly, the new stadium is designed to be configured for soccer but I can't remember for sure.

Finally Saskatoon would be a better location as the sport has deeper roots in S'toon IMHO.

 

Saskatoon is crying out for a major sports team but attendances have been mixed with what they have tried at the indoor CUC, other than the World Juniors which was a huge success.

 

There is certainly a big soccer culture here and its rapidly growing along with the population which they predict will be upwards of 400,000 within 10 years. There is a whitecaps prospect academy here too.

 

Downside to Saskatoon is that there is nowhere to home a team and I don't see them building a stadium for a small league, as much as I dream for it. Griffith Stadium is the closest thing at just over 6000 capacity. but whether they could work something with the Uni, who knows.

 

There is no reason why they couldnt still ride the Roughrider coatails though - Roughriders are Sasktachewans team and it works so well. Having the same with a soccer team but based in Saskatoon would be a neat concept. Like you say, what they feed the Ridernation they will eat up. Its bonkers here.

 

With the investment coming into the city anything is possible, but I would be shocked to see it actually happen here. Either way I would drive to Regina if there was a team there too.

[lazlo_80]

I do think to some degree thats the in, especially in places like Saskatchewan. the roughriders of soccer, not by the same name but maybe the same colors and you get the idea. why not? we need to define our own Canadian soccer culture, I think it would be rad to have our fantastic CFL culture bleed into that as a starting point in some places.

[toontownman]

Yes maybe its a touch crass, but I think it makes sense to use the CFL as a starting point and have some crossover.

[madmonte]

FWIW of CSL

 

Winnipeg Fury

 

1988 3,207

1989 4,404

1990 4,246

 

Ottawa various

1987 1,537

1988 1,823

 

 

If I were Winnipeg, then I start play in an expanded Winnipeg Soccer Complex, then try a few feature games at Investors, before using Investors regularily.

 

FWIW as well, I understand why you posted these numbers, given that I was talking about my estimates as 1700-1900 people.  I, for one, revise my estimates based on the numbers you provided, regardless of how old.  Thank you for the info.

[madmonte]

If I take off my 'please, please, please bring any pro-soccer team to Regina' rose-coloured glasses for a moment, I would say the likelihood of drawing enough fans in Regina is 50-50. On the downside, it is a small population, it is not a city with a significant soccer history, and there are very few focal points for the game, so even fans have trouble getting together. In the recent past it was even difficult to get a CMNT game on in most of the sports bars and if you got it on TV you would almost certainly not get sound as well. Finally, part of what makes the Riders work is drawing significant numbers of fans from as far as 4 or 5 hrs drive away and no soccer team is going to draw people from North Battleford of Tisdale in any kind of numbers.

On the upside, there are a ridiculous number of ppl in Regina with a lot of money and little to spend it on. In fact much about the province has changed from when I grew up. SK has gone from a have not province with a have not attitude to one that is young, energetic, wealthy, and with an attitude that anything is possible. It's bizarre.

I can honestly see a team in Regina drawing 5000+ per game. If the Riders are involved this is more likely as everything they are involved in these days turns to gold. In fact they seem to mirror the greater cultural change in the province as a whole. If Jim Hopson tells everyone it's a good thing, ppl will eat it up.

I can also see it being a flop. Really hard to know for sure.

If I remember hearing correctly, the new stadium is designed to be configured for soccer but I can't remember for sure.

Finally Saskatoon would be a better location as the sport has deeper roots in S'toon IMHO.

 

Rob, I have to ask you as a Saskatchewanite, and probably more involved with that scene, a couple of questions.  Enlighten me, you or Jeff...

 

1) Saskatoon and Regina are two of the fast growing cities in Canada.  Growing so fast it is crazy.  Would you say that the market for soccer, with all the new residents, is a lot different now than it would have been even in, say, 2006?  If so, in a positive way, or negative?

 

2) Right now, the CFL is THE ticket in Saskatchewan.  In your opinion, is that because American Football (Canadian?) is the only game in town, or is the CFL just that popular?  The Roughriders don't have a lot of professional competition.  Is it possible that Saskatchewan could go as crazy over another sport, if granted a professional franchise of a different flavor?

[deschamp86]

Foote Field is an absolute dump. Clarke Stadium (capacity 4200) is where FC Edmonton currently plays and is the much better option.

 

My mistake. Wikipedia has it listed as 1,200. Clearly a better option if it holds 4,200

[Redcoatsforever]

 

McMahon Stadium (Calgary) - 35,650

Mosaic Stadium (Regina) - 33,427

TD Place Stadium (Ottawa) - 26,559

Tim Hortons Field (Hamilton) - 22,500

PEPS Le Stade Exterieur (Quebec City) - 12,257

University Stadium (Kitchener-Waterloo) - 6,000

TD Waterhouse Stadium (London) - 8,000

Royal Athletic Park (Victoria) - 5,700

University Stadium (Winnipeg) - 5,000

Foote Field (Edmonton) - 3,500

 

 

Two quick notes: 

 

1) TD Waterhouse doesn't have erasable football lines as well as a race track and is a pretty horrid venue for soccer. Watching London City play a match there after the relocation was pretty rough, you'd probably be better off putting newer, bigger stands in at Cove Road or using an altered Labatt Memorial Park.

 

2) Isn't PEPS in Laval, right beside Montréal and pretty far from Québec City?

[-Hammer-]

If I take off my 'please, please, please bring any pro-soccer team to Regina' rose-coloured glasses for a moment, I would say the likelihood of drawing enough fans in Regina is 50-50. On the downside, it is a small population, it is not a city with a significant soccer history, and there are very few focal points for the game, so even fans have trouble getting together. In the recent past it was even difficult to get a CMNT game on in most of the sports bars and if you got it on TV you would almost certainly not get sound as well. Finally, part of what makes the Riders work is drawing significant numbers of fans from as far as 4 or 5 hrs drive away and no soccer team is going to draw people from North Battleford of Tisdale in any kind of numbers.

On the upside, there are a ridiculous number of ppl in Regina with a lot of money and little to spend it on. In fact much about the province has changed from when I grew up. SK has gone from a have not province with a have not attitude to one that is young, energetic, wealthy, and with an attitude that anything is possible. It's bizarre.

I can honestly see a team in Regina drawing 5000+ per game. If the Riders are involved this is more likely as everything they are involved in these days turns to gold. In fact they seem to mirror the greater cultural change in the province as a whole. If Jim Hopson tells everyone it's a good thing, ppl will eat it up.

I can also see it being a flop. Really hard to know for sure.

If I remember hearing correctly, the new stadium is designed to be configured for soccer but I can't remember for sure.

Finally Saskatoon would be a better location as the sport has deeper roots in S'toon IMHO.

 

I completely agree with Saskatoon, the only issue is that the Riders sports org is community owned by the city of Regina, not the province. They are likely aren't going to consider putting the team there. This of course doesn't stop another potential owner from starting up a team in Saskatoon (and running it out of the 6,100 seat stadium they have there) but the Riders aren't likely to invest there.

 

Now that being said, as far as the Riders investining in a soccer team, that group has deep pockets and is looking for ways to spend and add stadium dates. Even if it doesn't fly, it's not such a large investment that it's going to be a major issue for the organization.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Two quick notes: 

 

1) TD Waterhouse doesn't have erasable football lines as well as a race track and is a pretty horrid venue for soccer. Watching London City play a match there after the relocation was pretty rough, you'd probably be better off putting newer, bigger stands in at Cove Road or using an altered Labatt Memorial Park.

 

2) Isn't PEPS in Laval, right beside Montréal and pretty far from Québec City?

 

Can't explain it, but I recently learned the University Laval is nowhere near Laval. It is in Quebec City.

[Redcoatsforever]

Can't explain it, but I recently learned the University Laval is nowhere near Laval. It is in Quebec City.

That's...odd.

 

Oh, it's named after its founder and not the city. That's a bit confusing. My bad.

[rob.notenboom]

Rob, I have to ask you as a Saskatchewanite, and probably more involved with that scene, a couple of questions. Enlighten me, you or Jeff...

1) Saskatoon and Regina are two of the fast growing cities in Canada. Growing so fast it is crazy. Would you say that the market for soccer, with all the new residents, is a lot different now than it would have been even in, say, 2006? If so, in a positive way, or negative?

2) Right now, the CFL is THE ticket in Saskatchewan. In your opinion, is that because American Football (Canadian?) is the only game in town, or is the CFL just that popular? The Roughriders don't have a lot of professional competition. Is it possible that Saskatchewan could go as crazy over another sport, if granted a professional franchise of a different flavor?

Answers as best I can give -

1) I think the dynamic is much different than 2006 and it shocks me how different it is. As toontownman has pointed out above, they are projecting rapid growth in S'toon and the same is true in Regina. Both cities are on infrastructure regime plans now that are suitable for 500,000 (or so I've heard). It's crazy to be in the middle of it as Regina was such a sleepy little government burg in the 90s. Additionally, the ppl going to Rider games in the 80s and 90s were committed but fairly passive. We used to go with my grandparents, great aunts and uncles etc and the atmosphere was perfect for sitting in your seat and waving your pom pom.

5 or 6 years ago the Regina Public School Div came out with a 14 year projection that suggested a significant percentage reduction in the student population and many school closures. The projections lasted for about a year or two and then the school age population started to go up and has been climbing ever since.

So what I'm trying to say, in a very long winded way, is that there is a real vibe in the province. Not only that, but the population is young, there are lots starting families, there has been a huge influx of immigrant families, and almost all of the above are well off/wealthy. I think all of these factors taken together suggest that the province is ripe for a team if it's done the right way. Even as recently as 10 years ago I was playing soccer with ppl that didn't follow the game and teaching kids who were playing at a high level and also not watching the game. Now everyone on my team watches either European, domestic, Nats, or all three, and tons of students do too.

2) The Riders are a unique, weird, cultural phenomenon that is hard to truly figure out. But I think it has something to do with deep roots in the province (my grandparents were season ticket holders from 1953 until the late 90s for example ... Almost every SK resident has a similar story), SK emerging from economic and cultural obscurity to become an economic 'have' province (not so convinced on the cultural side ), the new youthful vigor, and identity formation. As the province has emerged, so have the Riders. Add on-field success and it's been a recipe for the pandemonium that currently exists. Not sure if that would translate to support for a soccer team, but if it would even half translate, the team would be a resounding success. Being the only game in town had much more to do with the team's steady attendance numbers in the 80s than it does with the routine sell-outs now. Whether or not that would translate to a soccer team is hard to say, but I think the likelihood is much greater now than it ever has been.

Apologies for the long-winded reply (I seem to be doing that a lot lately) but I think it is a very complex situation with a lot of contributing factors.

And of course the team would be named Inter Regina. If memory serves, that was my first post on the forum several years ago. Chuckle.

[Sébastien]

Two quick notes: 

 

1) TD Waterhouse doesn't have erasable football lines as well as a race track and is a pretty horrid venue for soccer. Watching London City play a match there after the relocation was pretty rough, you'd probably be better off putting newer, bigger stands in at Cove Road or using an altered Labatt Memorial Park.

 

2) Isn't PEPS in Laval, right beside Montréal and pretty far from Québec City?

 

The PEPS is at Université Laval, which is actually located in Québec City.

I know, I got confused too the first time.

 

***EDIT***

 

And I see I was late to the reply game.