Canadian Division 1A - Why We Need It

[narduch]

Does the current Canadian NHL contract, which is more than double the NBC contract mean that we could outspend the US 2-1 on hockey? Seems to me that GDP doesn't mean shit if one culture cares about the sport and the other doesn't. $90 is a piss poor TV deal relative to any other sport in the US. And $15m comes from Spanish language broadcasting.

Just to add to this: MLS is benefitting from a new cable sports war in the US. The rating are awful.

[narduch]

As it is now, the popularity of soccer for the average Canadian is probably behind the average American, especially when you factor in Latinos in the US.  This is another reason why the MLS is growing so quickly - the growing Latino population in the US.

 

This is simply not true.

 

Per capita soccer is way more popular in Canada than it is in the US. Now you are just making shit up to side with your argument, which threatens your credibility.

[Blackdude]

This is simply not true.

 

Per capita soccer is way more popular in Canada than it is in the US. Now you are just making shit up to side with your argument, which threatens your credibility.

He had credibility?

[narduch]

He had credibility?

 

LOL.

 

I guess being the official MLS shill on the forum comes with a price.

[football_world]

This is simply not true.

 

Per capita soccer is way more popular in Canada than it is in the US. Now you are just making shit up to side with your argument, which threatens your credibility.

 

Please cite a credible source on this.

[football_world]

LOL.

 

I guess being the official MLS shill on the forum comes with a price.

 

Yes, because somehow having a top level team hurts the development of kids and teenagers who dream of a profession in that sport.  Maybe you can explain how the NBA has drafted two Canadians as the #1 overall pick two years in a row (2013 and 2014) who were born in Toronto.  I'm sure the Toronto Raptors had no influence on Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Bennett. 

[Yohan]

You're presupposing that a Canadian league would inevitably and always be inferior to MLS. Without Toronto, Montréal, and Vancouver, MLS loses a good chunk of its most popular teams, and it's not as though the ownership groups of those clubs would suddenly lose the money or location to attract major star DPs.

 

Seriously, what things do Kansas City and Salt Lake City have going for them that Edmonton or Winnipeg don't? Are Portland and Houston regarded throughout the world as some jewels of North America that players from far and wide would flock to?

 

Smart ownership group with deep pockets and patience. And just as importantly, SSS. RSL and SKC sucked when they played at Rice-Eccles and Arrowhead.

 

Small markets need SSS to create that fan experience and atmosphere. 

[coppercanuck]

An outsiders perspective? http://www.empireofsoccer.com/trending-progress-threatened-27341/

 

Back to the title of the thread ... "Canadian Division 1A - Why We need It" ... Canada needs more pro contracts for its soccer players, to improve the CMNT, to get to the World Cup.

 

Concentrating those players into our own league rather than having them scattered all over the globe has to be a priority.  If the 3 MLS teams each get a team in USL Pro and the CFL owners (8 independent groups) get 3 more teams into the NSAL (for a total of 5); it's a huge step for Canadian soccer players looking to get paid.  The V Cup will look awesome for the CMNT scouts.  Pressure games for young players against the international players on the MLS clubs.

 

(time for me to get caught up on some podcasts)

[ob1]

Yes, because somehow having a top level team hurts the development of kids and teenagers who dream of a profession in that sport.  Maybe you can explain how the NBA has drafted two Canadians as the #1 overall pick two years in a row (2013 and 2014) who were born in Toronto.  I'm sure the Toronto Raptors had no influence on Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Bennett. 

Your joking right? tell me your joking. You cannot even begin to compare the two. Tell me, what did the Raptors have to do with their development?

 

Seriously those are pretty poor numbers to be fair. Two players wow, big f'n deal. 

Is that how you measure success for the National team? Do you even care about the Canadian National team?

The development of two elite athletes in 20 years is hardly going to win championships now is it, I mean even by basketball terms you need another 3 on the court and 4 or 5 good bench players. what have the raptors done to develop that for Canada?

 

Depth, development, playing time, team cohesion,  doesn't come from watching Villa, Kaka, Henry, Keane, Cahill, Dempsey, Donovan, Beckham and Xavi on TV or from the bench. 

[Redcoatsforever]

Smart ownership group with deep pockets and patience. And just as importantly, SSS. RSL and SKC sucked when they played at Rice-Eccles and Arrowhead.

I meant in terms of drawing high level talent. There's an assumption that major stars won't want to come to major metropolitan centres in Canada, but I have no idea what most American cities are supposed to have over us. Obviously those mls clubs are well run, but what about those cities makes them magically superior to Canadian cities?

[RS]

Your joking right? tell me your joking. You cannot even begin to compare the two. Tell me, what did the Raptors have to do with their development?

 

Seriously those are pretty poor numbers to be fair. Two players wow, big f'n deal. 

Is that how you measure success for the National team? Do you even care about the Canadian National team?

The development of two elite athletes in 20 years is hardly going to win championships now is it, I mean even by basketball terms you need another 3 on the court and 4 or 5 good bench players. what have the raptors done to develop that for Canada?

 

Depth, development, playing time, team cohesion,  doesn't come from watching Villa, Kaka, Henry, Keane, Cahill, Dempsey, Donovan, Beckham and Xavi on TV or from the bench. 

 

While I tend to agree with the majority of people in this thread that we need more Canadian pro development opportunities for our young soccer players, you're absolutely off point when it comes to the Raptors and their influence on the current crop of Canadian basketball players.

 

While the Raptors didn't have any direct impact on their development (NBA teams don't get players until they're at least 19 years old, anyway), almost all of the big influx of NCAA and NBA talent from Canada over the past 5 years have credited the Vince Carter-era Raptors as inspiration for taking up basketball in the first place. And there are way more than 2 elite basketball players coming out of the GTA these days, just watch Canada's national team over the next few years.

 

Having a local, top-level team to inspire young kids absolutely makes a difference.

 

All of that said, soccer is different than basketball, and the tried-and-true method of developing players includes several (more than 5) professional teams cultivating talent from 10-12 years up. We need at least 3 more fully professional teams with full-fledged academies in this country, just as a start.

[Yohan]

I meant in terms of drawing high level talent. There's an assumption that major stars won't want to come to major metropolitan centres in Canada, but I have no idea what most American cities are supposed to have over us. Obviously those mls clubs are well run, but what about those cities makes them magically superior to Canadian cities?

 

There is nothing really different between Canada and US. But seems that general perception in the world knows more about US than Canada. Prevalence of US media makes US seem like better place to live. 

 

Those who actually come to Canada to play speaks well of Canada. But, it's hard to convince people to get over their first impression/perceived notion.

[ob1]

While I tend to agree with the majority of people in this thread that we need more Canadian pro development opportunities for our young soccer players, you're absolutely off point when it comes to the Raptors and their influence on the current crop of Canadian basketball players.

 

While the Raptors didn't have any direct impact on their development (NBA teams don't get players until they're at least 19 years old, anyway), almost all of the big influx of NCAA and NBA talent from Canada over the past 5 years have credited the Vince Carter-era Raptors as inspiration for taking up basketball in the first place. And there are way more than 2 elite basketball players coming out of the GTA these days, just watch Canada's national team over the next few years.

 

Having a local, top-level team to inspire young kids absolutely makes a difference.

 

I didn't say anything about influence. yes you are correct they do influence, but without a place to play, to hone their skills work hard to become great, influence is just a dream. Again the Raptors did not provide that development for them. 

 

More my point is basketball and Soccer are two completely different set ups, you can not compare them.

 

 

 

All of that said, soccer is different than basketball, and the tried-and-true method of developing players includes several (more than 5) professional teams cultivating talent from 10-12 years up. We need at least 3 more fully professional teams with full-fledged academies in this country, just as a start.

 

We need a path, a place to play on a regular basis under conditions that mean something to the players, not just reserve games and practice. 

[narduch]

Please cite a credible source on this.

 

I'm not doing the research for you. Just take a look at TV ratings for a start.

 

You are full of shit when it comes to MLS.

[narduch]

An outsiders perspective? http://www.empireofsoccer.com/trending-progress-threatened-27341/

 

 

 

Not to be harsh but this article sucks. Hard to take it seriously when the writer thinks the current CSL was a national league. The writer has no idea what he is talking about.

[ted]

MLS is obviously still Canada's first division, but I think this NASL Canada league is meant to one day evolve into something else.

 

OK, so we have no argument and in fact are saying almost exactly the same thing: maybe someday the MLS teams will come onboard but for right now we can give this NASL-CFL plan a try.

 

 

Per capita soccer is way more popular in Canada than it is in the US. Now you are just making shit up to side with your argument, which threatens your credibility.

 

Hold on there. You are comparing apples to oranges and damaging your own credibility.

 

Where did you get the "per capita" nonsense. The number that matters is the hard number of people who will buy a ticket and attend games.  That number MAY be smaller PER CAPITA in the US but since they have 10x our population a smaller number per capita is still a fuck of a lot bigger than ours.

That said what the fuck does it matter? When it comes to building any sort of Canadian league all that matters is how many paying bums in seats up here in Canada. There is nothing to disprove the assertion that TFC, VWFC and IM will have better attendances in 2015 playing in MLS versus playing in <NASL-CFL proposed league>*.

 

We can argue about the same numbers for 2020 and 2025 and I look forward to that discussion when we get there. Right now there is not much point.

*  I hope they go public soon with any sort of proposed name for this league. In the meantime I may have to start calling it MWD: Montagliani's Wet Dream.

[lazlo_80]

Just curious, does anyone know what the ratings are for an Ottawa-Edmonton game in the NASL?

Does a Toronto-Montreal matchup get significantly better ratings than when either team plays an American based team?

I believe toronto's highest rated game so far this year was the season opener against Seattle.

[Tuscan]

Just so everyone knows, I vomit my credibility.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I believe that opener got 350k, which was similar to the TFC IMFC match a couple years ago. These numbers are three times the typical NBC match.

[Tuscan]

Having a local, top-level team to inspire young kids absolutely makes a difference.

 

This. This is exactly the reason this league needs to happen. Kids DO get inspired by watching top talent, especially if they're able to see the games live, meet the players, everything. It really does all add up.

[football_world]

While I tend to agree with the majority of people in this thread that we need more Canadian pro development opportunities for our young soccer players, you're absolutely off point when it comes to the Raptors and their influence on the current crop of Canadian basketball players.

 

While the Raptors didn't have any direct impact on their development (NBA teams don't get players until they're at least 19 years old, anyway), almost all of the big influx of NCAA and NBA talent from Canada over the past 5 years have credited the Vince Carter-era Raptors as inspiration for taking up basketball in the first place. And there are way more than 2 elite basketball players coming out of the GTA these days, just watch Canada's national team over the next few years.

 

Having a local, top-level team to inspire young kids absolutely makes a difference.

 

All of that said, soccer is different than basketball, and the tried-and-true method of developing players includes several (more than 5) professional teams cultivating talent from 10-12 years up. We need at least 3 more fully professional teams with full-fledged academies in this country, just as a start.

What Rudi said. You need a top level team to inspire young kids and teenagers to choose a particular sport as a profession. The Raptors did not develop Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Bennett, but they showed those 2 what life could be like as a pro basketball player. This is why we need the highest level of soccer available in North America to inspire a future generation of Canadian kids to choose soccer as their career. Having said that, having a domestic league to help develop Canadian talent will certainly help, as long as we keep our MLS teams in place.

[Tuscan]

To continue along this line, I have no problem with the current MLS sides remaining in MLS and current NASL sides remaining in NASL, if the league is set up outside NASL that is. If it's set up within NASL's framework, then obviously Ottawa and Edmonton would become part of the pan-Canadian division or league or whatever the hell it is.

 

Let's stop giving reasons why it can't work, and instead focus our energy on how it can work and what needs to be done to get it there.

[Robert J]

To continue along this line, I have no problem with the current MLS sides remaining in MLS and current NASL sides remaining in NASL, if the league is set up outside NASL that is. If it's set up within NASL's framework, then obviously Ottawa and Edmonton would become part of the pan-Canadian division or league or whatever the hell it is.

 

Let's stop giving reasons why it can't work, and instead focus our energy on how it can work and what needs to be done to get it there.

 

Aye, well said.

 

I can't fathom how anyone with an interest in Canada's footballing development would rather talk about all of the reasons a Canadian league would fail than focus on opportunities and potential for it to succeed. 

 

Furthermore, while I appreciate that the three Canadian MLS clubs are nailed on to continue down that road in the immediate future, why not consider the possibility, or at least the potential conditions necessary, for these clubs to move into a Canadian league eventually? I get that there is a lot of money/interest associated with big teams (New York, Los Angeles) and regional rivals (e.g., Seattle and Portland for Vancouver) but do you lot really have much interest in watching TFC, the Whitecaps, or Montreal playing against bloody Salt Lake, Houston, Colorado, etc.? I can say hand to heart that I certainly don't. I would be much more interested in seeing the Whitecaps play Calgary, Edmonton, a team from Saskatchewan, or Victoria. And there would still be the CONCACAF champions league for marquee matches with the best of the MLS.

 

At some point Canadians have to stand up and expect, even demand, that we're going to stand on our own two feet and I don't see why that shouldn't include our own damn league.

[Danny Boy]

I think it's a valid hope to suggest that one day this Canadian league can be on equal footing talent wise to even consider this option. The reality is that we are years possibly decades away from achieving this. A team from Regina won't be able to DP a Keane or Defoe like player (which attracts more casuals to the stadium) until the base league is up to a certain standard. And it would be naive to suggest that, at the point where the Whitecaps or Impact are willing to make the switch, the league would field 100% Canadian talent (not saying you have).

I'd actually like to add something that does align with that hope. If TSN is indeed partly driving this plan, it would seem plausible that they still want access to the 3 biggest markets in Canada. Maybe they will up the MLS content? I think Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal are big enough to house a 2nd pro side that wouldn't cannibalize the MLS markets. There will also be enough distinction between the 2 products that those hardcore enough may invest in both.

[finchster]

All this talk of rivaling MLS is non-sense. However, I am excited for a Canadian league, but lets discuss realistic things this league can do in the short term

 

1. Turn Soccer into a sport, rather than activity.
   • Soccer isn't a 'sport' in Canada, it's an activity. We can talk about registered players until the cows come home, but until there is a real possibility, close to home, to become a professional, it's just an activity.
2. Give kids hope
   • This is part of becoming a sport rather than activity. If there are more professional opportunities, kids will take the sport more seriously and they will have some hope to become a professional.
3. Become a place Canadian players abroad can come home to and increase our depth,

• Europe will always be the goal, we will always see young kids go over the pond to try their luck  if they have the chance. But this league should be a place where Canadians can continue to play as professionals. Jaime Peters for example, here is a guy who played in the championship in England and now he is out of the game at age 26. Part of that is his own fault, but at the moment we cannot afford to have players like that simply not playing. If we can give guys like him and youth players who cannot continue a chance, that will improve our MNT 100%

1. (stupid list fucked up)  Call players from this league, unlike currently