Canada Soccer announces move to new timeframe for future Amway Canadian Championships

[Raven]

"Canada Soccer announced today that its Amway Canadian Championship will move to a new summer timeframe starting in 2015. The change, approved by CONCACAF’s Executive Committee at their latest meeting, will require a transition over the next three editions of the competition which will impact the qualification format that determines the Canadian representative in the CONCACAF Champions League."

http://www.canadasoccer.com/canada-soccer-announces-move-to-new-timeframe-for-future-amway-canadian-championships-p156082

Basically 2015 Voyageurs Cup will be played in July/Aug, for 2016/17 CCL, and 2015/16 CCL Participation will be based on highest finishing MLS team of the 2014 season.

This does open the possibility of having more teams in earlier rounds of the same year with some sort of qualification process leading to the July/Aug full Cup schedule.

[jonovision]

Possibly does open up the possibility of a larger tournament, but I don't see the point of shafting the NASL teams in 2015 when an expanded tournament is only realistic over the course of a much longer time horizon (5-10 years from now). The WWC is an excuse with little bearing on the ability to put together a 6- or 8-game spring tournament in 2015 to conclude by early June.

 

I sure hope the teams playing the toutrnament in 2015 at least pretend to take it seriously as a competition (and trophy, and let's be honest, the only trophy any of these MLS and NASL teams will be winning any time soon) worth winning on its own merit. I've spent a lot of time trying to care about this tournamen -- as an NASL/MLS neutral the V-Cup games are probably the matches I pay most attention to in any year apart from MNT competitive games -- and I'd hate to see it get pissed on because the CSA sees it as little more than CCL qualification games.

 

It's hard to conceive of a reason this isn't a bad idea.

[Redcoatsforever]

I'm not particularly thrilled about the MLS rankings being used for 2015 while the change is made, but there had to be some kind of off-year for the cup eventually, and it makes sense to do it now while there are still just 5 clubs in the tournament. In 5-10 years time when we're having 8 or more clubs (dare I dream of a group-stage?) taking part it would mean a lot more than just two clubs getting shafted, so I think this is best.

[Sport Shaman]

Mr. Sandor of  the11.ca makes some compelling points as to why this not such a bad thing for the NASL clubs in the medium to long term:

 

http://the11.ca/2014/03/21/new-voyageurs-cup-sked-for-nasl-teams-short-term-pain-for-long-term-gain/#more-13543

[MM2]

Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't see anyone getting screwed or any lame duck tournament.  I think this change is the best for Canadian soccer.

 

Voyageur Cup winner 2014 = 2014-15  Champions league

Top MLS team 2014 = 2015-16 Champions League

Voyageurs Cup winner 2015 = 2016-17 Champions League.   Just like the 2015 US Open Cup winner will compete in 2016-17 Champions league

 

What am I missing?  Every Voyageurs Cup competition still counts

[baulderdash77]

I like it.  It harmonizes a bit with how other countries do their national tournament.  Also it gives us a time of the year where the TV schedule is more open (after NHL & NBA playoffs but before NFL starts).

 

I really like how it allows the tournament to expand to other teams in a way that the current tournament doesn't. 

[Villa_Canuck]

so we fans have to wait a year before watching their team in a competition. Way to go CSA following USSF n doing do what ever USSF says. great balls we got here in Canada let me know when even our house leagues will follow USSSF. I understand the states due to huge number of teams compared to Canada but hey WTF do I know I am just a low wage earner who save during the off season for tickets. I am a useless opinion

[MM2]

^???????????????    I think this is pretty standard for every CONCACAF country. not sure what this has to do with the USSF.   This change makes so much sense from every perspective.

 

Weather.   Timing (no NHL playoffs).  Future expansion.   And you can still see your team play every year.

[Redcoatsforever]

so we fans have to wait a year before watching their team in a competition. Way to go CSA following USSF n doing do what ever USSF says. great balls we got here in Canada let me know when even our house leagues will follow USSSF. I understand the states due to huge number of teams compared to Canada but hey WTF do I know I am just a low wage earner who save during the off season for tickets. I am a useless opinion

 

...there's still going to be a Champions League and a Canadian Championship every year, there's just a double qualification in 2014. Are you upset the Canada's moving the tournament to accommodate the expanding pro-soccer scene in the country, or what?

[Free kick]

I dont see what there is to like about this new format.

1) with the current format, we always had a good competition to look forward to in the early part of the league season. Now they are stacking the matches in the later part of the season at a time when the focus (for some teams) will be on league competition a play off chases.

2) in the current format, we were assured that the canadian entrant in the CCL would be the same squad that won the canadian championship in that same year. Now, they are saying that if you win the voyageurs cup, you won play in the CCL until the following year. With the contract expiries, roster turn over, injuries and off-season player movement that we see nowadays, it wont be the same squad that will represents the country at the the CCL. it might even be a much weaker squad. Or, a club thats really kicking ass in given season will not get a chance to play in the CCL that year unless they won it the previous year.

Some people will try to say: " well thats what they do in europe". But that because they cant feasably do it otherwise in europe. And in europe, with the huge discrepany in financial wherewithall amongst the clubs, its more or less the same clubs year after year that enter the UCL anyways. In europe the UCL, its a competition for the superclubs. Every year is a new year in the CCL where you know that the best clubs will almost always be there.

[Free kick]

... Are you upset the Canada's moving the tournament to accommodate the expanding pro-soccer scene in the country, or what?

Why do we need to expand the competition if there are no clubs to add? Whats wrong with MLS and NASL clubs? who else can we add thats is even professional?

[Free kick]

so we fans have to wait a year before watching their team in a competition. Way to go CSA following USSF n doing do what ever USSF says. great balls we got here in Canada let me know when even our house leagues will follow USSSF. I understand the states due to huge number of teams compared to Canada but hey WTF do I know I am just a low wage earner who save during the off season for tickets. I am a useless opinion

Yes, completely agree. They sure know how to ruin a good thing.

[Free kick]

....

[madmonte]

Why do we need to expand the competition if there are no clubs to add? Whats wrong with MLS and NASL clubs? who else can we add thats is even professional?

 

Have a look at the US Open Cup.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Lamar_Hunt_U.S._Open_Cup

 

They have teams from the PDL and the NPSL playing.  It doesn't necessarily have to be a professional team to qualify, and that's the same for almost every country in the world that hosts a cup.

 

You want me to name teams that could be added, I shall do so.

 

 Forest City London, K-W United, Toronto Lynx, Thunder Bay Chill, WSA Winnipeg, Victoria Highlanders, AS Blainville, CS Mont-Royal Outremont, FC Boisbriand, FC Brossard, FC Gatineau, FC L'Assomption, Saint-Leonard, Bellingham United, Coquitlam Metro-Ford, Estrella de Chille, Kamloops Heat, Khalsa Sporting Club, Vancouver Thunderbirds, Victoria United

 

If this was the US Open Cup, all those teams would be participating this year.  That's not including teams of even lower tier, it's not including the Calgary PDL team that will start in 2015, and it doesn't include any of the teams from the new League1 Ontario that will be starting, basically in "replacement" of the CSL.  

 

I'm not saying any of them has a chance at winning, but in my mind it makes the competition more fun.

Whether it is financially feasible is for better minds than mine to solve, but hey, it works in the States, and they have similar geographic challenges to us.

[Blackdude]

I think that there are multiple reasons why they've pushed it to the year after. Here are 2 that jump in my eyes.

1) They know that at the beginning of the season that they'll have multiple matches late in the year. So they can recruit accordingly, keep their players because of that CCL allocation money for MLS clubs and for players who want to play in CCL. Plus, the club will know that they'll have to manage fatigue right from the get go.

2) It sells more tickets for the V's Cup. I don't know how it is in other cities, but here in Montreal, their big attendance matches are when hockey season is done.

 

It will also help those clubs with a more friendly regular season calendar knowing that they have these matches to deal with.

 

Oh and for the V's Cup expanding, if you disagree with that because they're not fully professional clubs, you're missing the boat of supporting local soccer. I think it's more important to let semi-pro clubs get their shot because it's their shot to make money for a big game and get a big opponent that they wouldn't get otherwise. If you tell me that they're not good enough, then when will they ever be good enough if you don't give them a chance? Clubs will improve that way and it could help Canadian soccer in the long run with more people interested to invest massively in their local clubs to have them play and maybe have our own pro league down the road, because as long as we don't have that, we will keep calling players who haven't started an official club game in 6 months to start a game for the senior team.

[Free kick]

Have a look at the US Open Cup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Lamar_Hunt_U.S._Open_Cup

They have teams from the PDL and the NPSL playing. It doesn't necessarily have to be a professional team to qualify, and that's the same for almost every country in the world that hosts a cup.

You want me to name teams that could be added, I shall do so.

Forest City London, K-W United, Toronto Lynx, Thunder Bay Chill, WSA Winnipeg, Victoria Highlanders, AS Blainville, CS Mont-Royal Outremont, FC Boisbriand, FC Brossard, FC Gatineau, FC L'Assomption, Saint-Leonard, Bellingham United, Coquitlam Metro-Ford, Estrella de Chille, Kamloops Heat, Khalsa Sporting Club, Vancouver Thunderbirds, Victoria United

If this was the US Open Cup, all those teams would be participating this year. That's not including teams of even lower tier, it's not including the Calgary PDL team that will start in 2015, and it doesn't include any of the teams from the new League1 Ontario that will be starting, basically in "replacement" of the CSL.

I'm not saying any of them has a chance at winning, but in my mind it makes the competition more fun.

Whether it is financially feasible is for better minds than mine to solve, but hey, it works in the States, and they have similar geographic challenges to us.

how many people does the USSF cup attract? believe it or not, our cup is far better attended and followed.

How does including clubs that no one even knows about (much less follows) grow a competition? How does it make it more fun to follow? I am often frustrated by this on going notion of "well thats how its done elsewhere". Will someone pay to go watch an MLS team play against a bunch of weekend hacks? Well, nobody overseas in europe and in the UK pays to go to watch those games so why would anyone in Canada? the kind of competition that you are envisioning, requires coverage of expenses and who is going to cover the expenses for clubs whose structure and operation is based on a registration fee and competition in local public parks from one borough to another.

In europe, association football is still rooted around the principle of amateurism even though many clubs are not. They never use the word "Professional" preferring Association Football instead even though most clubs are professional. In north america, people in sufficient numbers will only pay if there is expectation of a certain standard. Or more specifically, if something is branded as certain standard (Ie professional). We dont see NHL teams entertaining the idea if ever playing any of the gazillion senior league teams or any of the mens teams around canada in public arenas and There is a reason for that.

The pro game is growing well in canada, and it needs to continue to grow. Not get dragged down. There is a good reason why MLS is drawing average crowds in the 18-20k per game and the old CSL drew crowds 1-5k. you seem to want to drag it them down to the CSL level by adding clubs with no talent, no structures, and no prospect of adding any value to the game of of soccer in Canada. Is it really so hard to gain entry into NASL?

[Free kick]

Oh and for the V's Cup expanding, if you disagree with that because they're not fully professional clubs, you're missing the boat of supporting local soccer. I think it's more important to let semi-pro clubs get their shot because it's their shot to make money for a big game and get a big opponent that they wouldn't get otherwise. If you tell me that they're not good enough, then when will they ever be good enough if you don't give them a chance? Clubs will improve that way and it could help Canadian soccer in the long run with more people interested to invest massively in their local clubs to have them play and maybe have our own pro league down the road, because as long as we don't have that, we will keep calling players who haven't started an official club game in 6 months to start a game for the senior team.

Lets look at Basketball. You can clearly see that there is bright future for the game in canada. And there is only one reason for that; it's TALENT, emerging talent. A bunch of kids, in their formative ages, got hooked on star talented local pro that they got to see regularly and, as a result, took up playing the game and pursue the avenues to excellence. It didnt matter or make a difference for all those players that there is no national league or that there is now one. They, and future talent will by pass it and probably nver hear of it. National team players will never come from that leaugue because the pool of talnent at ahigher level is sufficiently large. In short, It was not needed to make us better at basketball.

Does it really matter that there is only one NBA team in canada? Does it really matter that in those years in the nineties, there were no semi pro avenues or amateur options. Of course not, and you could add that the raptors pretty much operate at a complete indepndance from the national association. How would it have helped basketball in Canada if they would have forced the raptors into a competition against the CIAU or some other entities? In truth, as you can see with basketball, it barely even matters what is happening or even whether there is an existance of amateur clubs, semi-pro clubs etc etc. it also doesnt matter what are the perceive or non perceived shortcomming of the national association or even who national coach is. As long as there is talent.

Therefore i dont really see how adding a competition, that involves amateur or semi pro clubs against pro clubs, makes us better in soccer. Its all about talent.

[Blackdude]

how many people does the USSF cup attract? believe it or not, our cup is far better attended and followed.

How does including clubs that no one even knows about (much less follows) grow a competition? How does it make it more fun to follow? I am often frustrated by this on going notion of "well thats how its done elsewhere". Will someone pay to go watch an MLS team play against a bunch of weekend hacks? Well, nobody overseas in europe and in the UK pays to go to watch those games so why would anyone in Canada? the kind of competition that you are envisioning, requires coverage of expenses and who is going to cover the expenses for clubs whose structure and operation is based on a registration fee and competition in local public parks from one borough to another.

In europe, association football is still rooted around the principle of amateurism even though many clubs are not. In north america, people in sufficient numbers will only pay if there is expectation of a certain standard. Or more specifically, if something is branded as certain standard. Do you see NHL teams entertaining the idea if ever playing any of the gazillion senior league teams or any of the mens teams around canada in public arenas? Of course not. There is reason for that.

The pro game is growing well in canada, and it needs to continue to grow. Not get dragged down. There is a good reason why MLS is drawing average crowds in the 18-20k per game and the old CSL drew crowds 1-5k. you seem to want to drag it them down to the CSL level by adding clubs with no talent, no structures, and no prospect of adding any value to the game of of soccer in Canada. Is it really so hard to gain entry into NASL?

 

Wait, so our cup is better because it's open to clubs that have a certain prestige? It's better because we have higher attendance? If it is, then you just aren't a dreamer.

 

Having a small club playing a big club, will help the small club to push for more. The CSA is pushing for their D3 regional model, and would you tell Canadian D3 clubs to say well, you're not invited because. If you can push some clubs into becoming a national D2 league with that, it will have worked. 

 

MLS and the old CSL are different. MLS is working here because clubs were able to grow in prior leagues and then there's Toronto, who got on board because MLSE was able to give them Kook-Aid that they Lynx didn't have because of their drawing power. The goal is not for the MLS and NASL clubs to grow, it's for Canadian soccer to grow, and we are not growing in a world if we keep the same model. I can't see it growing by doing that. It will eventually fade anyways and the solution for soccer in this country won't be with those 5-7 clubs who are playing in MLS and NASL. 

 

Giving the NHL exemple is like saying why wouldn't the NHL do that? Simple because the NHL doesn't have anything to say to Hockey Canada and US Hockey. They have their own rules, they don,t even have to wonder if their local federation will say yes if a club is accepted or not. Hockey Canada and US Hockey don't worry about their players, because they have enough players form each nationality playing at a high level in that league. Why would they want them to play other teams?

 

To gain entry in NASL, it is hard, you need to have a massive population base and we couldn't get more than one Canadian club in NASL under the current USSF rules. Clubs need to start someplace and you don't start from nothing. If one club that started playing a local D3 played in the V's Cup and made NASL after that, it would be a immense success. Simple as that.

 

I don't see why you blame the CSA for having balls. It's not even sure to what it would take to allow a club outside of the top 2 leagues to participate in that league. It's something that needs to be done in the future, when will that be? The tournament will stay the same next year. They won't even consider opening up that tournament until 2015. So let's keep calm, wait what happens with those leagues and if they put rules to determine which outsider has the right to participate in the V's cup and after that we can talk about something concrete.

[Free kick]

Maybe those small clubs are not interested in pushing for more. i dont know, but has anyone ever asked them.

Here is what i think would be preferable to this notion of expanding the voyageurs cup. Create a cup, or competition, or league for the reserve and or youth sides for the top proclubs in the NASL and MLS. That way, its the emerging talent and prospects who get the meaningful competition. Not the players who who dont have future in the game in the bigger picture.

PS: in my earlier example, you could substitute basketball with tennis. Tennis is also on the upswing in canada. Did it really matter whether there was an open national competion, a D3 league, Tennis clubs or basketball clubs in timbuktoo..etc etc. nope. Its all about coaching and one or two talent athletes that are garnering attention. Now, as result, there more people paying attention and taking the game more seriously. And, there people wanting to follow in the footsteps.

[Blackdude]

Maybe those small clubs are not interested in pushing for more. i dont know, but has anyone ever asked them.

Here is what i think would be preferable to this notion of expanding the voyageurs cup. Create a cup, or competition, or league for the reserve and or youth sides for the top proclubs in the NASL and MLS. That way, its the emerging talent and prospects who get the meaningful competition. Not the players who who dont have future in the game in the bigger picture.

 

Just NASL and MLS. So you're saying that Samuel PIette wouldn't have a future in the game because he chose to go to FC Boisbriand instead of going to the Impact Academy.

[Free kick]

Just NASL and MLS. So you're saying that Samuel PIette wouldn't have a future in the game because he chose to go to FC Boisbriand instead of going to the Impact Academy.

piette was in europe at 17. Eventually he found his way didnt he? And thats what will happen, the talent will find its way eventually. In most cases. I find we are far too obsesses quantity and not quality. Its always, expand this, expand that. Expand the voyageurs cups, get more teams into nasl, get more teams into mls.... In the case of mls, its good to have more teams to cheer for but other than that, does it really make us better by having 3 instaed of two or four instaed of three. Yes, We definitely need a presence. But, we have hard time finding the kind of quality that makes an impact in MLS as it is right now (in sufficient numbers).

We have always had quantity. But we have really lacked quality. There are only eleven players who step on the pitch wearing a maple leaf. And another nine on the bench. I m more concerned about those eleven than i am about the thousands of others. And, i would rather that those eleven (or atleast 3 or 4 of them) be world class rather than of the class of the other thousand.

[madmonte]

The talent will find it's way eventually?  Are you serious with that?  How many talented players in Canada have went by the wayside after turning 23, in recent memory?  Luckily we have 5 professional teams now.  

 

Yeah, the results speak for themselves, right?  The hordes of Canadians playing professionally in Europe right now at high profile clubs.  If you don't have quantity, then too many guys slip through the cracks, and never get opportunites, due to unfortunate favoritism, or lack of development.  

 

Yes, it will make us better in the long run than leaving it to "well, maybe they will make it in Europe".  We have lacked quality AND quantity.  Since when did we have quantity?  

 

We absolutely need more opportunities at every level.  More fans, more interest, more kids playing the sport.  Everything helps.  And maybe if we spark more national interest through local teams, ie grassroots teams at the V-Cup level, then some of the athletic kids choose soccer over hockey or other sports.  

 

The BIGGEST single complaint, and you can even ask the pros, they have been saying this for YEARS is the lack of opportunities.  It's well documented.  Expansion is absolutely needed.  And it's happening.  And it will improve us.  It will just take time.  

[Redcoatsforever]

Lets look at Basketball. You can clearly see that there is bright future for the game in canada. And there is only one reason for that; it's TALENT, emerging talent. A bunch of kids, in their formative ages, got hooked on star talented local pro that they got to see regularly and, as a result, took up playing the game and pursue the avenues to excellence. It didnt matter or make a difference for all those players that there is no national league or that there is now one. They, and future talent will by pass it and probably nver hear of it. National team players will never come from that leaugue because the pool of talnent at ahigher level is sufficiently large. In short, It was not needed to make us better at basketball.

 

This is just outright false. Right now, let's say that, on a 0-10 scale where the average NBA player is a 7, the average, registered Canadian basketball player is a 1. There are enough players numbered 5-8 to fill our national pool and make the team qualify for tournaments. Then along comes the NBL Canada, with an average playing level of 4 and a set number of Canadian roster spots. Leaving aside all that having a local basketball team to watch and receive outreach from can do to get more Canadian kids trying harder at basketball, if nothing else, it enlarges the talent pool and raises the standard of the average Canadian basketball player. 

 

If say, in a number of years, we find the average registered Canadian player at a 3, it stands to reason that the pros coming out of a newer, larger system with better facilities and more role models will on average be better than the pros of yesteryear.

 

 

Does it really matter that there is only one NBA team in canada? Does it really matter that in those years in the nineties, there were no semi pro avenues or amateur options. Of course not, and you could add that the raptors pretty much operate at a complete indepndance from the national association. How would it have helped basketball in Canada if they would have forced the raptors into a competition against the CIAU or some other entities? In truth, as you can see with basketball, it barely even matters what is happening or even whether there is an existance of amateur clubs, semi-pro clubs etc etc. it also doesnt matter what are the perceive or non perceived shortcomming of the national association or even who national coach is. As long as there is talent.

 

 

How much would it have helped? I mean, do you honestly think that given the opportunity to play not only against the Raptors, but also in front of their scouts and coaching staff, basketball players aren't going to train harder, longer, and with greater focus? Forget the chance to impress the coaching staff, or meet some really big stars and actually shoot hoops with them, how much would your average Canadian university basketballer pay to sink a few against a team of professionals in front of his friends and family, and walk away with those bragging rights?

 

Therefore i dont really see how adding a competition, that involves amateur or semi pro clubs against pro clubs, makes us better in soccer. Its all about talent.

 

 

When talent has opportunity, they push harder. When talent plays against greater talent, they up their game and learn new skills. When people in a smaller city pack a smaller stadium because they actually get to see major stars play in a convenient location, live, smaller clubs see a financial windfall that can allow them to hire better coaches, purchase better equipment, and upgrade facilities. Not only that, but the exposure from having a small side take on a pro-side in front of a home crowd can easily convert more local fans to the club for the matchdays where they aren't facing down the big league players.

 

It means more money for the smaller sides, more notoriety and exposure for players who might not have been noticed by scouts in the past, and more to play for in the grand scheme of things. When the baseline of a talent pool rises, the top rises with it.

[Tuscan]

There's been discussion if the winner of CSA Adult Nationals on the men's side should get to enter the Vs Cup, and I think there was quite a bit of support for that notion on here. See, I don't think this is a question on youth development or anything of the sort. This is simply looking at a European-styled traditional cup competition that most of us understand and enjoy because of the giant-killing aspect of it. Yes, there are semantics involved. Each of us likes the competition for one reason or another. Some see the inclusion of semi-pro and amateur sides as not being worthwhile because it should only be about the highest level of competition. Some want it to be 100% open to any team based in the country. To each their own (even if the latter version is clearly superior  )

[fil]

Why wont the CSA force "Canadian content" rules for the squads listed for the Voyageurs Cup?

 

If Tiebert is not healthy or in form then Vancouver might not play any Canadians at all. I would like to see young Canadin guys like Hamilton, Ouimette and Alderson get playing time in this competition.