Loss of the National Football Stadium

[Ivan]

Awesome news!  Too bad it is probably just a strong-arm tactic.

[narduch]

Awesome news!  Too bad it is probably just a strong-arm tactic.

 

That's what it looks like.

 

Also I wonder what this means for the City approval. The original approval included making the stadium available to the Argos.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

 

"Those are a great many reasons to find some sort of compromise, which MLSE has already provided on the back end.

BMO Field Renovation 2.0 is reversible. The north section of the structure will remain open, using only temporary stands, meaning that the arena can be adapted for the CFL at some future point."

[Ivan]

And to clarify, I am not a CFL hater.  I am actually an Argo fan (however, much prefer my Steelers and NFL) and hope they find a suitable home and the CFL is successful.  I am not totally against them at BMO but would much prefer they go elsewhere.

 

So 1. Leafs, 2. TFC (a close 2nd), 3. Steelers (distant 3rd) 4. Pirates  5. Raptors & Jays 7.  Argos.  ; )

[narduch]

Building to the north end would most likely mean completely tearing down the CNE Food Building. I don't think that is politically feasible.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Argonauts’ move to BMO Field ‘on hold,’ MLSE says
MLSE CEO Tim Leiweke says football reno at Toronto FC home “may be a year later than initially expected” with federal, provincial funding uncertain
Daniel Dale City Hall, The Star May 27 2014
 
The chief executives of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment and the Toronto Argonauts say the CFL team might still move to BMO Field, though an early financial hurdle has not yet been overcome.
 
In a Tuesday interview, MLSE CEO Tim Leiweke rejected a newspaper report that said the company has “cancelled” its plan to renovate the soccer stadium and allow the football club to play there after its Rogers Centre lease expires in 2017.
 
Leiweke said the relocation plan is not dead — just “on hold”as MLSE attempts to secure $10 million from the provincial government, which is in the middle of an election campaign, and $10 million from the federal government.

 

Because the money has not arrived, MLSE is now asking city council to endorse a change to the renovation agreement that was approved by council only last month on the condition of an Argos move.
 
The agreement was for a $120-million project to be paid for by MLSE ($90 million), the city ($10 million, to be repaid by MLSE with interest), the federal government ($10 million) and the provincial government ($10 million).

 

Leiweke said MLSE still faces pressure to add about 8,000 permanent seats to the city-owned stadium in time for the Pan Am Games next summer. So the company wants council to quickly sign off on a scaled-back renovation which would add those seats and build a roof.
 
The new plan would require the $90 million in MLSE money and $10 million from the city. “If and when” the additional $20 million arrives, Leiweke said, MLSE would then do the work to accommodate the Argos and 10,000 extra temporary seats for major events such as the NHL Winter Classic.
 
“There is a path,” Leiweke said. “It may be a year later than initially expected.” He added: “There is no stress or tension here, nor is there any disagreement between us and the governments.”
 
“We still believe that the project will eventually move forward as it was always anticipated,” said Argos CEO Chris Rudge.

 

Ottawa says it will not provide funding for sports stadiums. Leiweke countered that he is asking instead for a $10 million contribution to the “big events” the expanded stadium could host, tourist draws such as the Winter Classic, Grey Cup and MLS All-Star Game.
 
“Our government has been clear that it would not fund professional sport infrastructure,” said Vincent Rabault, press secretary for federal infrastructure minister Denis Lebel. “This decision is being implemented uniformly across the country. That being said, amateur sport infrastructure is now eligible for funding under the Gas Tax Fund.”

[narduch]

Toronto City council has approved the non-Argo version of the reno.

 

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2014/mm/bgrd/backgroundfile-70431.pdf

 

But they have left the door open for the Argos to eventually move in. They just won't do it without the additional $20 million from the top two levels of government.

 

Good news for soccer fans, for now.

[SoccerJedi]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/pts-argos-to-mlse-a-dead-deal/

 

MLSE's purchase of the Argos fell through, deal is dead according to Bob McCowan on Prime Time Sports

[TFC07]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/pts-argos-to-mlse-a-dead-deal/

 

MLSE's purchase of the Argos fell through, deal is dead according to Bob McCowan on Prime Time Sports

 

No surprises there. Argos aren't very popular in Toronto proper so it will be best for them to move to 905 region.  

 

This news doesn't change the fact that Argos can still come to BMO field in 2017 though.  

[narduch]

No surprises there. Argos aren't very popular in Toronto proper so it will be best for them to move to 905 region.  

 

This news doesn't change the fact that Argos can still come to BMO field in 2017 though.  

 

This is just not true. You are making this shit up about the Argos not being popular in the 416.

 

Moving the Argos to the 905 would be a massive mistake. They would die out there.

 

Playing downtown gives the team the greatest chance of attracting the largest number of potential fans. People in the GTA are more willing to travel downtown to an event than they are to travel to some other GTA municipality. Its part of the reason why the OHL has failed in Brampton and Mississauga.

 

I believe the Argos are a sleeping giant in Toronto. Under the right ownership and move to BMO Field (or a similar intimate stadium) they could become a successful franchise.

 

As a soccer fan I don't want to see the Argos move to BMO Field, but I'm not kidding myself as to their importance to the local sports market.

 

I agree with your last point though. The door is still open on the Argos coming to BMO Field.

 

One other point, I wonder what is going on with the Jays grass at SkyDome plan. I wonder if it isn't as feasible as they first thought. Maybe the Argos stay at SkyDome could last longer than expected.

[TFC07]

This is just not true. You are making this shit up about the Argos not being popular in the 416.

 

Moving the Argos to the 905 would be a massive mistake. They would die out there.

 

Playing downtown gives the team the greatest chance of attracting the largest number of potential fans. People in the GTA are more willing to travel downtown to an event than they are to travel to some other GTA municipality. Its part of the reason why the OHL has failed in Brampton and Mississauga.

 

I believe the Argos are a sleeping giant in Toronto. Under the right ownership and move to BMO Field (or a similar intimate stadium) they could become a successful franchise.

 

As a soccer fan I don't want to see the Argos move to BMO Field, but I'm not kidding myself as to their importance to the local sports market.

 

I agree with your last point though. The door is still open on the Argos coming to BMO Field.

 

One other point, I wonder what is going on with the Jays grass at SkyDome plan. I wonder if it isn't as feasible as they first thought. Maybe the Argos stay at SkyDome could last longer than expected.

 

It has been rumoured in the past that most of Argos fanbase coming outside of the city.  Even Hamilton Ti-cats owner admit if Argos move up north they will do much better than they will in downtown core.  

 

I personally believe Argos at best is same level as TFC in terms of support in the city which is okay, but it  never be same level to Leafs or Blue Jays. Even then, TFC at least play a sport that is very popular in grassroot level that Argos don't have to tap into to attract fans.  Not only that, but demographic of city doesn't flavour Argos.  So I have very hard time believing Argos will ever become relevant in the city.  

[ob1]

It has been rumoured in the past that most of Argos fanbase coming outside of the city.  Even Hamilton Ti-cats owner admit if Argos move up north they will do much better than they will in downtown core.  

 

I personally believe Argos at best is same level as TFC in terms of support in the city which is okay, but it  never be same level to Leafs or Blue Jays. Even then, TFC at least play a sport that is very popular in grassroot level that Argos don't have to tap into to attract fans.  Not only that, but demographic of city doesn't flavour Argos.  So I have very hard time believing Argos will ever become relevant in the city.  

Yes a 100+ year history in the city, I could see why they may struggle to gain a foothold.

[TFC07]

Yes a 100+ year history in the city, I could see why they may struggle to gain a foothold.

But yet, they struggle to draw fans and find their own stadium.  City of Toronto has changed a lot in the last 100 years and Argos haven't been able to adjust to their market.   So can you seriously say history really matters in the end?  

[Joe MacCarthy]

But yet, they struggle to draw fans and find their own stadium.

How is it that the Argos have outdrawn and out rate TFC for every year of their existence (save one) and they are struggling to draw fans.  What does that make TFC?

 

Anyway, listened to Commish Cohon on PTS today and the story isn't over yet. 

 

According to McCown the MLSE board turned down the deal because the Argos were asking too much but Leiweke wants the deal and also wants the Argos as a tenant. 

 

The next step for the Argos and the league is to somehow broker that money either from government or a sponsor and get the Argos into there as a tenant even if they are not owned by MLSE.

 

Cohon wants to turn the people who are watching on TV into stadium going fans and wants to change the experience for younger fans.  He also got in a good shot at how Argo TV ratings beat the Raptors and TFC.

[Heepster]

Most of those people watching the CFL on TV are in western Canada. The only TV ratings made available now are national ones, but up until a couple of years ago there a was a list of Top 30 TV shows (all types of shows, not just sports) of the week for individual cities. Routinely CFL games would make the lists for western cities, often in the top ten for Edmonton and Calgary, yet be nowhere to be seen in the lists for Toronto and Quebec. 

www.channelcanada.com/canadian-channels/canadian-tv-weekly-ratings-report-september-17th-23rd-2012

 

McCown also claimed that the Argos have only sold 3500 season tickets, and I don't think Cohon disagreed.

[Cheeta]

Really?  Too lazy to Google around but I was quite sure the Southern Ontario numbers have been very good the last few years.

 

If they aren't well I am a little puzzled.  Seems very odd that TSN would be doling out significantly more money (min 2x and probably closer to 3x what they were per season) for a property which holds minimal appeal in a market populated by 1/3 of all Canadians.  Doesn't it?

 

Where the Argo's belong in the GTA I have no idea.  Not in BMO Field so far as i'm concerned but I still don't think it would be the end of the world were it to happen.  

 

Provided of course it was handled properly. 

 

 

[Blackdude]

Most of those people watching the CFL on TV are in western Canada. The only TV ratings made available now are national ones, but up until a couple of years ago there a was a list of Top 30 TV shows (all types of shows, not just sports) of the week for individual cities. Routinely CFL games would make the lists for western cities, often in the top ten for Edmonton and Calgary, yet be nowhere to be seen in the lists for Toronto and Quebec. 

www.channelcanada.com/canadian-channels/canadian-tv-weekly-ratings-report-september-17th-23rd-2012

 

 

I think it shows more that people don't care a lot about the CFL as a whole, because your ratings were showing for every game. It doesn't mean that there are no Argos or Alouettes fans watching. It's like if you were a let's say NCIS fan, but not watching NCIS Los Angeles, for reason X and they put the show as the same. It's not. It's not the same cast you like. It's not the same players you like. If you had something like ratings for only the Argos games, it would be a better comparison.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Seems very odd that TSN would be doling out significantly more money (min 2x and probably closer to 3x what they were per season) for a property which holds minimal appeal in a market populated by 1/3 of all Canadians.  Doesn't it?

Got it in one. 

 

The old red herring about only people out west watching the CFL is BS.  The average CFL game draws over 700k, what does it say when the Cats and Argos get together and draw over 1 mil.  Must be all TiCat fans.

[TFC07]

How is it that the Argos have outdrawn and out rate TFC for every year of their existence (save one) and they are struggling to draw fans.  What does that make TFC?

 

Anyway, listened to Commish Cohon on PTS today and the story isn't over yet. 

 

According to McCown the MLSE board turned down the deal because the Argos were asking too much but Leiweke wants the deal and also wants the Argos as a tenant. 

 

The next step for the Argos and the league is to somehow broker that money either from government or a sponsor and get the Argos into there as a tenant even if they are not owned by MLSE.

 

Cohon wants to turn the people who are watching on TV into stadium going fans and wants to change the experience for younger fans.  He also got in a good shot at how Argo TV ratings beat the Raptors and TFC.

 

Of course the story isn't over until 2017-18 when Argos leave Rogers Centre.  

 

Argos play bigger stadium than TFC and even then, ticket prices are super cheap and they only play 9 games.  What's worst is that they're winning team unlike TFC but yet they struggle to get fans to come to their games.  3500 SSH only in city and surrounding area with population close to 6 million?  Why so low for team with 100 years of history?  TFC are doing better (more SSH despite high ticket prices) and even increasing their seating capacity to get more fans to come to games while Argos doing the opposite.  So what does that say about Argos?  

 

TV ratings argument is funny one given Cohon mentions Southern Ontario ratings instead of GTA ratings.  How many people were lining up in the streets to watch Argos play in the playoffs last year like they did with Raptors and Maple Leafs?  

 

If Argos such great product, then how come they don't have their own stadium and don't have investors lining up to buy them?  Let me guess, because they're not valuable team to own and build a stadium for.   This is why CFL is trying so hard to get Argos move into BMO field and get MLSE own the team.  

[TFC07]

 

Got it in one. 

 

The old red herring about only people out west watching the CFL is BS.  The average CFL game draws over 700k, what does it say when the Cats and Argos get together and draw over 1 mil.  Must be all TiCat fans.

 

 

This year, numbers below 700K for some odd reason.  

[narduch]

TFC are doing better (more SSH despite high ticket prices) and even increasing their seating capacity to get more fans to come to games while Argos doing the opposite.  

 

 

 

Again you are making wild claims that just aren't true.

 

BMO Field is being expanded for outdoor hockey. Sure TFC will benefit from it but they aren't driving the seating capacity increase.

 

You never look at the big picture. You cherry pick points that support your argument and ignore those that don't.

[narduch]

If Argos such great product, then how come they don't have their own stadium and don't have investors lining up to buy them?  Let me guess, because they're not valuable team to own and build a stadium for.   This is why CFL is trying so hard to get Argos move into BMO field and get MLSE own the team.  

 

The fact that MLSE are even considering buying the Argos should tell you all you need to know about their value.

 

I'm of the belief that it will eventually happen. All we are seeing now is the last bit of public negotiation as MLSE tries to extract as much public money as possible first. As well as paying less for the franchise than Braley wants.

 

I don't want the Argos to be playing at BMO Field, but all signs point to it eventually happening. Your lame-ass attempts to denigrate the CFL and the Argos won't change a thing.

[TFC07]

Again you are making wild claims that just aren't true.

 

BMO Field is being expanded for outdoor hockey. Sure TFC will benefit from it but they aren't driving the seating capacity increase.

 

You never look at the big picture. You cherry pick points that support your argument and ignore those that don't.

 

Hosting one hockey game is main reason why they're expanding it?  Thanks for the laugh.  I am sure it's part of their reason, but they main reason is they need more seats to make bigger profit from their investment on DP signings while making game day experience better for fans.  

[narduch]

Hosting one hockey game is main reason why they're expanding it?  Thanks for the laugh.  I am sure it's part of their reason, but they main reason is they need more seats to make bigger profit from their investment on DP signings while making game day experience better for fans.  

 

They aren't planning on only hosting one game.

 

The stadium expansion talk came way before the current DP plan.

 

Even now its still easy to get TFC tickets. There really is no need to expand the stadium for soccer at this point. This is totally being driven by the Leafs.

[TFC07]

The fact that MLSE are even considering buying the Argos should tell you all you need to know about their value.

 

I'm of the belief that it will eventually happen. All we are seeing now is the last bit of public negotiation as MLSE tries to extract as much public money as possible first. As well as paying less for the franchise than Braley wants.

 

I don't want the Argos to be playing at BMO Field, but all signs point to it eventually happening. Your lame-ass attempts to denigrate the CFL and the Argos won't change a thing.

 

Yeah they were interested to get them cheap.  Guess what?  They rejected to buy Argos for $10 million.  So what does that say?  How come no one else is stepping up?  To put things perspective, Ottawa paid $7 million expansion fee get into CFL.  So you're telling me that a team as old as Argos playing in biggest city in Canada is possibly worth less than Ottawa?  It seems like it.