Everyone's down on the Italians?

[squizz1402635577]

Alright, a disclaimer right off the bat: my dad was born in Italy, so it's entirely possible that I'm just noticing trends that don't exist or ascribing more significance to off-hand remarks than they really merit.

Now then. With Italy's exit from the Euro, I noticed a palpable sense of glee amongst even the most passingly soccer-affiliated people I know. This is nothing new, from what I've found. Most people, when asked who they're favouring in any big tournament, will give an answer, followed by "and if not Country X, then anyone but the Italians." That's then followed by smug satisfaction upon Italy's elimination (or, in the case of the 2006 WC, accusations of cheating and other devious acts). This includes people who have no knowledge of my background (and thus, I assume, are saying it earnestly, and not just to try and rile me up).

These may seem like particularly naive and foolish questions, but: one, is this blindly anti-Italian bias totally widespread, or is it just prevalent amongst people I know? (I imagine it's the former.) And two, why is everyone down on the Italians? Is it a perception of Italians as divers? Envy over their WC win? Bitterness at the unsatisfying finale of The Sopranos? I'm really curious to know people's thoughts.

(And as a closing disclaimer, my father quite rightly taught me that I should consider myself a non-hyphenated Canadian, which I do. Thus, any borderline-offensive remarks and/or stereotypes concerning Italians won't offend me - they are, in fact, invited, so long as they're amusing.)

[River City]

Well, I'm Portuguese-Canadian (born there, choose to live here), married and divorced Italian.

My beef with the Italian MNT is that they have so much talent they could easily play beautiful, attacking soccer. Time and again however, they play a boring, game-killing style. They're the New Jersey Devils of soccer.

My beef with Italian-Canadians is actually with those that were born here, but act like they were born there. I'm generalizing here, but when Italy wins, they're the most obnoxious fans, and when they lose, they're the biggest conspiracy theorists.

These are the same type of people (Portuguese and Chilean included) who would automatically cheer for their 'mother country' if they played Canada. Annoying to no end. Psychologically, I'm guessing they have deep-rooted inadequacies and feelings of being outsiders that wrapping themselves in another country's flag gives them instant membership in a club they can feel at home with.

[squizz1402635577]

quote:Originally posted by River City

My beef with Italian-Canadians is actually with those that were born here, but act like they were born there. I'm generalizing here, but when Italy wins, they're the most obnoxious fans, and when they lose, they're the biggest conspiracy theorists.

These are the same type of people (Portuguese and Chilean included) who would automatically cheer for their 'mother country' if they played Canada. Annoying to no end. Psychologically, I'm guessing they have deep-rooted inadequacies and feelings of being outsiders that wrapping themselves in another country's flag gives them instant membership in a club they can feel at home with.

I've only just started posting on the Vs board, but I think you and I will get along very well. Your point about the boring style of play is well-taken. Your point about the obnoxious nitwits from Woodbridge, Ontario - very well-taken.

[River City]

Welcome aboard.

If you post long enough you'll eventually disagree with everyone, maybe have a running feud, and then once you meet them over a few pints, it's all good.

[squizz1402635577]

I look forward to all of it... particularly the part about the pints.

[CanadianSwede]

quote:Originally posted by River City

These are the same type of people (Portuguese and Chilean included) who would automatically cheer for their 'mother country' if they played Canada. Annoying to no end. Psychologically, I'm guessing they have deep-rooted inadequacies and feelings of being outsiders that wrapping themselves in another country's flag gives them instant membership in a club they can feel at home with.

Well said.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I'm not sure it's fair to say the Italians were playing boring football in this tournament. I think they were cautious against Spain, but well they should have been. The point is to win, after all. Given our own style we're playing with Friend and, to a lesser extent Gerba, I found it interesting to watch them use Toni as a target man (same to be said with the Czechs and Koller, the Dutch with Ruud, and the Russians with Whatshisnameov). Provided the fullbacks are getting forward as Zambrotta was for most of the tourney, I quite like that direct style. It seems like the target man is coming back into fashion to a certain degree. And thank god really, we can't all be Brasilians. Somebody has to play a different style. The Russians have been hugely entertaining and the only real difference I see is that they play at a higher tempo which makes them more susceptible to counter attack, whereas the Italians seem more comfortable counter-attacking themselves. But that isn't inherently boring. Is it?

[River City]

The way they do it, it is....

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

I'm not sure it's fair to say the Italians were playing boring football in this tournament.

It's not really about this particular tournament nor, to be honest, is it entirely fair but the Italian National team has developed over the last forty years a reputation as a bunch of diving primadonnas who play catenaccio all the time and grind out 1-0 wins.

You must have seen this from the last Euro tournament:

[River City]

I must admit, I was impressed with a Luca Toni dive on the second half of the Spain game that at first looked like a legit free kick. On the replay though, as the Spanish player swept the leg, Toni goes down in an almost choreagraphed motion between his leg and the Spanish dude's which were never more than a few inches apart.

It was a masterpiece...artistic brilliance. As far as dives go, it was the best I've seen.

[bingham]

Welcome to the Board.

I dont think Italians are the divers. That role is reserved for

our old fakers the Portuguese who are the divers supremo and who are only challenged for the diving crown at the World Cup by their old South American fellow thespians the Argentines. It was, for me, poetic justice for the Portuguese to exit the Euros with the Ballack push because as the Portuguese fans never tire of instructing us this is all "part of the game".

Sadly the Italians resorted to the tired old game plan of 10 men behind the ball, surely the most negative tactic to employ.Tactics more influenced by a fear of losing rather than a desire to win. Still they won the last World Cup using it and will probably continue to use it in the forseeable future.

Tnankfully people who appreciate the beauty of the game are hopefully rewarded with the treat of the tournament when Russia take on Spain in the semis.

[BearcatSA]

Hey, if my key playmaking midfielder is out of the lineup, some of my other offensive options aren't in form, and I'm up against a better in form attacking side, I'd be trying to choke the game off too.

[Johnnyranger]

I loathe the azurri with every inch of my being.

The fact that they always chide in with "what have you ever done" and "we are world champs" the Smug and cocky attitude coupled with the International version of "anti-Football" and all the diving is what drives me to cheer for anyone playing the Italians.

also the above poster that mentioned the Italian-Canadians wrapping themselves in an Italian Flag when they win and complaining about conspiracies is sooo true.

When Scotland had Italy in their last game and Alan Hutton was bundled off the ball and the Di Natale free kick went in Scotland went nuts, and appropriately so...

The Italians are "Aways Cheated, Never Beaten"

[Whither Canada]

As you're asking, I'll tell you what bugs me about the Italians.

It's not the football as such. Although it's usually a negative style it's been relatively effective for them over the years - you do what you have to do to win. No, what really bugs me are the Italian fans here in Toronto (and it may apply elsewhere).

You know, I got caught first-hand in the very first celebration in '82 when all this nonsense with closing down St Clair Ave first started. I thought it was mildly amusing at the time and I took a give-them-their-due attitude. Fair play, no complaints.

But now, every time they even draw a group match, it's roll out the flags, block the streetcars, and EE-TAL-YAH, EE-TAL-YAH. Whatever spontaneous charm that once had has had the life sucked out of it completely. And most of the people doing it have no idea what they've just finished watching. And it's not just me - I have Italian friends who are sick to death of it as well, not to say embarrassed by it. That's why people dislike the Italians.

And while we're at it, let's have a go at the Portuguese.

During the World Cup, I just loooove the way, as soon as Portugal gets knocked out, that we suddenly have 10,000 new Brazilians living in Toronto. What's wrong, your own country's not good enough for you? You need a backup?

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by Whither Canada

And while we're at it, let's have a go at the Portuguese.

During the World Cup, I just loooove the way, as soon as Portugal gets knocked out, that we suddenly have 10,000 new Brazilians living in Toronto. What's wrong, your own country's not good enough for you? You need a backup?

Haha...for the longest time, Portugal never qualified for the World Cup, so Portuguese all over the world, cheered on Brasil due to our historical ties. In Portugal, the Portuguese are happy when Brasil wins, but that's that.

In immigrant communities though, the younger Portuguese (who aren't fully aware of the history between the two countries) who grew up watching their parents root for Brasil, adopted Brasil as a stand-in for their homeland, so when Brasil wins, it's like their 'mother country' wins.

I find this to be a genuine emotion that the Portuguese have, not only for Brasil, but also for Angola, and Mozambique if they ever qualify. The problem is that the younger generations of Portuguese, much like their Italian counterparts, blend the celebrations with an individualistic streak, contrary to their proud heritage that unfortunately is obnoxious to no end. It's the equivalent of American 'my country right or wrong' mentality.

I suspect that since we're speaking about old-world cultures, where the family comes before the individual, some of it is an escape from a sometimes overbearing environment, some of it just plain testosterone, and some of it just because some of the individuals are just plain a**holes.

[Juby]

This thread seems odd, cause I tend to hate the germans (nothing bothers me more then the fact that they have never lost PK's, and I hate PK's). But as this euro progressed I got more noticably annoyed with Italy, First off, to say there's a conspiracy hot off a world cup win is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard, it seriously makes whoever said it look like a retard. Then in their second game, in like the last half hour, they started diving everytime they touched the ball, they were diving to the point that they were ruining actual goal scoring opportunities. It was pathetic, maybe the players were just doing it so the fans could pretend one or two were real so they could say 'we should have won' in their deluded heads. And Finally, Italy has replaced Brazil as the bandwagon team since winning the world cup, when the camera cuts to the Italy supporter it looks like just less then half are actually watching the game seriously, the rest are sitting around talking to each other, looking around them at the scenary like their bored when there's A EURO FOOTBALL MATCH LIVE BEFORE THEIR EYES. If I see another Italy fan, wearing a bunch of Italia gear, standing up to show it off and looking at random people around them in the crowd I think I'll pop a vein in my head.

[Toro]

I was very happy they were eliminated.

They play mind-numbingly boring football.

Go back and watch the Spain-Italy match again. I counted on several occasions when they had nine players during the run of play, i.e. no dead ball situations, either within the box or within a few yards of it. They looked like they needed a passport to enter the Spanish half.

Only in the last 10 minutes of regulation time did it look like they were interested in playing.

What is so frustrating about the Italians is that the produce such technically gifted players. Of course, they have to be to break down that horrible style of football they play every weekend. But they could play entertaining football and they choose to be wreckers rather than creators.

So I'm glad they are out.

[loyola]

Well, I never understand those who are saying that Italy is playing boring football. It's like every time they are involve in one boring game, people are overeacting.

Did some of you watched Italy vs Romania or Italy vs Holland? Those were pretty good games. Expecting an Italy without Pirlo to be all out for attack against Spain is stupid. We knew they would try to defend considering the kind of tournament Spain is having. In the end, Italy didn't have a good overall tournament but they don't deserve all that hate.

As for 2006, anyone who tell me that italy played boring just doesn't know anything about soccer.

Disclaimer: I'm not italian but I've caught myself defending them a lot since 2006 for what I feel are unjustified accusations.

[Daniel]

Don't care about the way they play.

The fans annoy me because there's a) many of them and all they care about is Italy - You'll also find them being among the biggest set of "Canada sucks" soccer fan, from my experience.

And to bring it home: here's a picture from Canada-Jamaica in September 2006. You'll notice some bozos hung some other flags there...

[Grizzly]

Guus weighs in on the debate about Italian style:

Hiddink, who has coached three Spanish clubs, said he would have preferred to face Italy now.

"I'd really like the Italians because tactically you can work against them," he said. "It is a team where lots of people stay in one place behind the ball, but that leaves space elsewhere where you can play."

He noted that Spain, like Russia, wants to control the match by keeping possession of the ball.

"Spain is a similar team to Russia - they want to play football," he said. "But if they go 1-0 up, as we've seen, they drop back and play on the counterattack."

[squizz1402635577]

quote:Originally posted by River City

Haha...for the longest time, Portugal never qualified for the World Cup, so Portuguese all over the world, cheered on Brasil due to our historical ties. In Portugal, the Portuguese are happy when Brasil wins, but that's that.

In immigrant communities though, the younger Portuguese (who aren't fully aware of the history between the two countries) who grew up watching their parents root for Brasil, adopted Brasil as a stand-in for their homeland, so when Brasil wins, it's like their 'mother country' wins.

This is oh so very true. Having grown up in a Toronto neighbourhood heavily saturated with Italian and Portuguese immigrant families, I can tell you that the passions in the schoolyard were running quite high leading up to the WC Finals in 1994. The best explanation I could get from the Portuguese-Canadian kids for their fervent support of Brazil was "Portugal owns Brazil, so it's like the same country!"

Also, yes, hardcore fans of the Azzurri are, by and large, giant a-holes.

[jpg75]

My buddy Mike is half Ital-Canadian and half Irish-Canadian. He used to identify himself as Italian when we were younger and he loved all the stereotypical stuff like the Godfather movies etc.

That changed after highschool when he played a season of men's league hockey with a team of Ital-Canadians and Portuguese-Canadians. They were crying to the ref anytime they'd get hooked or bumped into, they'd pick fights, swing their sticks, whine about quitting the league cause they were getting screwed etc. They would complain about EVERYTHING! So he vowed to never play with those guys again. He's been Irish-Canadian ever since []

[bingham]

quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA

Hey, if my key playmaking midfielder is out of the lineup, some of my other offensive options aren't in form, and I'm up against a better in form attacking side, I'd be trying to choke the game off too.

The problem with choking off the game is that they also choked any enjoyment out of it for spectators and then justly choked themselves. Unfortunately this is not always the outcome.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

My buddy Mike is half Ital-Canadian and half Irish-Canadian. He used to identify himself as Italian when we were younger and he loved all the stereotypical stuff like the Godfather movies etc.

That changed after highschool when he played a season of men's league hockey with a team of Ital-Canadians and Portuguese-Canadians. They were crying to the ref anytime they'd get hooked or bumped into, they'd pick fights, swing their sticks, whine about quitting the league cause they were getting screwed etc. They would complain about EVERYTHING! So he vowed to never play with those guys again. He's been Irish-Canadian ever since []

[hottoddy7]

I remember that goal.