Canadian Players Need A Canadian League

[Michael Crampton]

quote:Originally posted by strobe_z

I want a home town team to cheer for in MY pro league.. otherwise what's the point?

Amen, brother, amen.

It's all a matter of priorities. I think that this is even more important than geographic location. I place a higher priority on creating a Canadian league for Canadian fans. Player development and subsequent improvement of the MNT would be an added bonus.

While I don't think that the CSA should stand in the way of MLS I would rather see them placing their emphasis on building the domestic infrastructure for a sustainable Canadian league. MLS in T.O. would definately see me at a regular number of games as an interested neutral (especially if the stadium gets built at the Ex) but I'd much rather support the Thunder in some sort of pan-Canadian league.

Mike.

[strobe_z]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

And truthfully, I don't see any of the western voyageurs buying any kind of a soccer franchise - well maybe stobe-z if he parlays his computer genius into some sort of successful start-up IPO.

Screw a team... I created 2 whole leagues! Check it out here!

On a more serious note... thanks for the great post Gordon, you put into cohesive words what a lot of us have been rambling about.

[LMW]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Given that you and Gianluca and others are from Toronto it is not surprising you like to kiss American Aass. The people of Canada know you do it so well... We had the CSL before and it can be done again. But you have no faith in anything Canadian. sad sad people

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

This Brazilians will make us better argument is bollocks. If that were true England would be a hockey powerhouse by now.

Because the England hockey league gets Canucks who have no fantasies of ever playing in the NHL. Cause if they did, they would play in the AHL, ECHL, or one of the numerous other minor-pro leagues over here. This is the type of foreign players a CSL would attract, one with no fantasies at all of playing in top European leagues.

At least MLS sides would attract star players, eventually. Not because Toronto, but to play in MLS, in Amereeka.

Once again, so how long do we wait for this CSL fantasy? If Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal find MLS owners and are accepted, should the CSA step in and say no? The fact that they would lose in a court of law is besides the point. When will we admit, like all other sectors of our life, for better or worse, we are tied to the Great Satan below us. (***Note: to the Yanks here, "Great Satan" that's French, in English it means "very nice super great intelligent people".)

quote:Originally posted by strobe_z

I guess I should just be happy the americans let us play. I'd bet that one of the only reasons the CFL is still alive is because there's no NFL team in Toronto. Canadian Baseball and Basketball leagues have been tried and failed.. but that's ok... because I can cheer for the Blue Jays or the Raptors... No wait.. I can cheer for the Edmonton Trappers.. they're AAA ball club.. that's a 2nd division just below the MLB. Oh.. wait.. nevermind... The PCL is an american league.. so they got bought and moved to Texas. Oh well, it's ok.. 'cause now we have the CrackerCats.

Hockey rules all.. and we can't even extract ourselves from the Americans in that... but I'm sure the people in Winnipeg are happy with the Moose.. who cares about the Jets.

So, Torontonians are evil selfish American wanabees when they want the best level they can get, but it's okay for the rest of the country?

[LMW]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Should it ever happen, I'd be very surprised if people across the country weren't more interested in one MLS team than in 10 "CSL" teams - never mind the fact the chances of the latter happening nowadays are almost non-existent. You'd think we wouldn't be having to make these comments a year after two Canadian A-league teams folded, but apparently not.

Yes, you've hit the problem right on the head there. The people wanting to see the level of Canadian domestic pro soccer raised obviously are anti-Canadian. What would we do on this board if we didn't have you to point these things out to us?

We'll be mailing you your award for "worst post of the year" as soon as you send us your address.

You people from Toronto are really really f.cked in the head. No wonder you are looked down on by the rest of Canada. As a Canadian I would want to see Canadian teams play each other, just like in the CSL where the quality of play was GOOD. I bet you are ashamed of anything Canadian? including yourself dumbaass.

[RealGooner]

quote:

Given that you and Gianluca and others are from Toronto it is not surprising you like to kiss American Aass. The people of Canada know you do it so well... We had the CSL before and it can be done again. But you have no faith in anything Canadian. sad sad people

Getting nasty eh? Trying to pull the "I'm more Canadian than you?" card again? C'mon LMW, your insecurity is showing plainly.

LMAO....

[RealGooner]

quote:

You people from Toronto are really really f.cked in the head. No wonder you are looked down on by the rest of Canada. As a Canadian I would want to see Canadian teams play each other, just like in the CSL where the quality of play was GOOD. I bet you are ashamed of anything Canadian? including yourself dumbaass.

Keep it up bro. You are making us Toronto guys look great. What a wonderful advocate for the CSL you are.

[Luis_Rancagua]

Guys, I would really like that Gerry Gentile could come here on Voyageur and express his view on this whole matter. Gerry has spend nearlly a year studying the possibilities of forming a Canadian pro-league. I do think his input here matters very seriously and with such credibility.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Luis_Rancagua

Guys, I would really like that Gerry Gentile could come here on Voyageur and express his view on this whole matter. Gerry has spend nearlly a year studying the possibilities of forming a Canadian pro-league. I do think his input here matters very seriously and with such credibility.

By all means bring him on or have him write an article that you can post here for us to read. But MLS is still coming to Canada while the CSL is still being drawn up on paper napkins at sportsbars.

[Passive Observer]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

By all means bring him on or have him write an article that you can post here for us to read. But MLS is still coming to Canada while the CSL is still being drawn up on paper napkins at sportsbars.

I am a real dreamer, but I just don't see anyone stepping up to the plate to make a CSL reality. Toronto is headed to MLS. Vancouver wants to go to MLS. That leaves Montreal and once Rochester is off to the MLS, they will probably jump on the bandwagon as other than the 3rd rate Lynx there will be no more second division sides in the Northeast.

The only way a CSL will happen is if the Kerfoot, Maple Leafs and Saputo come together and decide to pursue it. But as I mentioned above, 2/3 of that group have publicly stated their intentions of going MLS.

[Richard]

"Man, I've got news for you... we're not expecting a world class league to drop from the sky here. EVERY league in the world is a feeder league for a bigger one. I really don't understand this idea that unless we're going to be the best, we just shouldn't bother."

Well accepting second or third best is definitely going to kill any prospects of a viable professional league before we even start. If the Lynx can only draw 2,500 to a game how many do you think will pay to watch a league at a level lower than the Lynx?

[strobe_z]

Ok... Richard, what makes you think that as a starting point the CSL would be any lower than the current USL? My point is simply that while any Canadian-only league is not gonna be a world beater, that shouldn't make a difference in the attempt. "A march of a thousand miles..." and all that.

quote:So, Torontonians are evil selfish American wanabees when they want the best level they can get, but it's okay for the rest of the country?

I'd say that's a ways off what I was saying...

<moderator>Let's keep this topic on target and let's watch the name-calling shall we? there's no need to degenerate a complex issue like this one into a pissing match... thanks</moderator>

[Richard]

Well for a start the two relatively successful Canadian USL club owners are showing no interest in any CSL2, the Whitecaps have publicly said they are looking to move up to the MLS in due course. MLSE is looking to a first division Toronto MLS franchise, not an entry in a CSL2 which would inevitably be one step lower than USLD1 for the reasons given below. Since any professional club is by definition a business first and foremost, entertainment business at that, I think we ought to pay attention to the owners of these clubs who have clearly demonstrated superior business acumen.

Secondly, what USL clubs we have now have been importing players from the USA and elsewhere to bolster their teams. Why don't they employ Canadians instead? I suggest because the really good Canadian players are too expensive and more interested in playing as fulltime professionals in Europe and there are not enough other quality Canadian players willing or able to play as part time professionals or even on amateur contracts.

Thirdly, I can't see CSL2 drawing larger crowds than the USL Whitecaps or Impact who with few exceptions can only afford semi-professional or part time players who mostly can't live on their soccer wages alone. I doubt whether the average CSL2 club would generate greater revenues than either of these two clubs average or even the Lynx so they would by definition be able to employ only part timers and probably pay them even less. That will result in the CSL2 clubs being staffed in the main by rejects from the other clubs and amateurs. Do you believe that would result in a level of play even equivalent to the USLD1, I sincerely doubt it?

If you are looking at CSL2 being a national league of clubs employing only amateurs well then thats an entirely different matter and a totally different business model but don't then expect aspiring professionals to be attracted to the league or last very long in it if they are.

Amateurs and players whom clubs cannot afford to pay a decent living wage are faced with an unpleasant dilemma. They must hold down other jobs in order to support themselves and their families. Sometimes this mitigates against their availability to play for their pro clubs. I know of several former Whitecaps/86ers who have given up playing for the club, not because they were not good enough, but because they could not afford to take the time off work needed for their Whitecaps commitments and it was their non-soccer jobs that were housing and feeding their families over the long term.

Will your CSL2 pay all of its players living wages for long enough such that they won't need to develop careers off the field in order to support themselves and their families? If not I can't see it offering a level of play even equal to the USLD1 let alone better, hence my belief it would be at best a step down from USLD1. I hope that answers your question.

All that being said, it does not by any means imply that I don't share the dream of a national domestic Canadian professional league, but I don't expect it will equal the level of the MLS or even the USLD1 if it ever comes to fruition, which I don't think is going to happen any time soon.

I also don't think Canadian soccer would be well served by turning our backs on one or more Canadian MLS franchises if they can be made to happen, or even more USL entries, because they might impede the ultimate dream of a CSL2. That would definitely be cutting off our noses to spite our faces so to speak.

[Richard]

Well, that post ended up a lot longer than I intended - what a windbag I am !

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by strobe_z

I'd say that's a ways off what I was saying...

Well, what are you saying? Are you saying that Winnipegers want the 6 Canadian NHL teams to leave the NHL so then those teams can be replaced with AHL teams so along with AHL teams in Winnipeg, Hamilton, and Quebec(?), plus I'm sure somebody would be interested in Halifax, we could have a 10 team Canadian league that could attract a lot of Brazilian ice hockey players?

Or are you saying Winnipegers want a local team in the best possible league?

And if people won't support 2nd division sports (triple A baseball, AHL, etc.), why do you think they would support 17th division (what a CSL would be in the soccer world)? Even Toronto MLS, although I believe would be successful, it will be a tough sell.

[An Observer]

A few additional points on what I have said before.

Even though I am a supporter of the MLS option, I am certainly not a supporter of the U.S. I hate American foreign policy and to be honest, I am not a big supporter of North American culture in general. That is why I live in Europe and have lived here for 10 years. So you can now criticise me for being anti-Canadian but of course, if that was the case, I guess I would never be on this Board to begin with....as would any of us.

In my dreams, I would love to see a Canadian league with similar attendences to the CFL and supporting 8 to 10 sides. That would be a perfect league and something that I would support whole heartedly. The fact is (as I have said on this Board many times) we need a FULL-TIME league where players are paid FULL-TIME salaries in order to develop them. Only a CFL sized Canadian league can do that (or slightly smaller). Do to the size of our geography (as Sulentic pointed out in another post he had to get used to travelling by bus and not air for St. Pauli...that costs money!) and the lack of any real European sized TV deal being likely, you need at least 10k to 15k attendences and more matches in order to bring in the revenue. As others have pointed out, MLS does not even pay high salaries other than for a few stars. Therefore, how can you expect a Canadian league to do it.

If we had a large group of owners who were so committed to a Canadian league that they were willing to bankroll it, than hey maybe this would be an option. Could have the CSA pushed this option more in the past? Maybe. To be honest, no one on this board really knows what they have done behind the scenes. (And whether they killed the CSL or not is ancient history....and to be honest, they had one team that wanted to join the APSL...and what, 2 or 3 other teams left...not much of a league). But I know they did the KPMG study which was not positive (whether they paid for it or not). And they are faced with the reality on the ground. The MLS option is far easier, less risky, and there are already a number of owners lined up that are interested. On a simple risk based analysis, it is the preferred route. Going the CSL2 route, you are looking at 10 to 15 years minimum to get a viable league going with >10k average attendences which would do something for Canadian soccer development. In that sense, in the short term even if you have 1 MLS side, and 2 USL sides you are probably ahead of the game (although lets be honest, if you could fine 8 owners for a CSL2, it would be far easier to convince those same 8 owners to buy an USL 1 franchise in an establishe league so this is not even a comparision. The comparisoin should be 1 MLS side and 7 USL 1 sides versus an 8 CSL2 league...to me, the former is a better option than the latter.

As for all this anti and pro american bias and Canadian inferiority complex, after living 10 years abroad it continually amazes me the Canadian fixation with "selling out" to the Americans attitude. We should be strong enough in our beliefs and convictions to see a good thing when see it and stop all this nonsense. Why not integrate as much as possible with the U.S.? Are we scared to compete with them? What does it matter if you see a Toronto-Montreal match, versus a Vancouver-Los Angelas one. Is it not the top quality nature of the match you are watching. Those who seem to be pre-disposed to a "Canadian league" see to be the ones who are biased. For me, I would rather simply see the quality. Or is it that you are concerned that if you are in Winnipeg, you will see lower quality soccer with a USL1 side than a CSL side? That is the small mindedness...forcing the larger Canadian cities to "sell-out" to the smaller ones and provide an inferior product to their fans to keep you happy. I would like to know what that does for the development of soccer in Canada? I say why not use the U.S. to develop your players, and help create a buzz around soccer. Thats not being anti-Canadian, thats just being realistic.

Finally, on the MLS, I agree with a post that they are primarily interested at this stage in viable franchises. In the short term, I see no reason why that does not preclude 3 Canadian cities joining them. It is also true that they are interested in getting into other markets such as those already mentioned but only if they have viable ownership groups and stadiums (otherwise, why Salt Lake?). And when we talk about the MLS and only 3 Canadian sides, I personaly think that we should remember that the idea of Canadian sides being stocked only with Canadian players will go after a few years. It doesn't make long term sense especially as the 3 Canadian sides would probably have much stronger sides that their 15 to 17 US counterparts (as the disparity in player development is not that great). After a few years, you will see the US sides clammering for North American players to be seen as non-imports which means the MLS would open the opportunity for more places for Canadian players. Or are we afraid of that competition, if we suck so much in soccer that the US could stock 17 US sides and some of 3 Canadian sides with US talent, than no Canadian league or anything else would save us.

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

I am not a big supporter of North American culture in general.

He states; as he types on his Dell, sipping a Coke, in his comfortable Levis, after eating at McDonald's, with rock music blaring in the background.

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

As for all this anti and pro american bias and Canadian inferiority complex, after living 10 years abroad it continually amazes me the Canadian fixation with "selling out" to the Americans attitude.

Especially when the rest of the world thinks we are part of Amereeka.

You're pretty much 100% bang on with you observations, Observer. I guess Europe has not made you retarded. Yet.

[Johnnie Monster]

My two cents:

Add me to the pro-MLS list...

When it comes to the MLS vs. Canadian league arguments, someone inevitably brings up the following:

"What's in the best interest for Canadian soccer over-all?"

Truth be told, I couldn't give a rat's arse about the Vancouver Whitecaps impact on national player development or the men's national team.

It is not the job or responsibility of any Canadian USL\MLS franchise to develop national team players. These teams are independent businesses, and should be run as such. Their job is to win soccer games and to put arses in the stands.

I want my club side to excel in the best soccer environment possible.

I want my team playing in the most competitive league available.

I want my team to play against the best players on the best teams.

I want my team to sign up players of equal or better quality.

For today's Vancouver Whitecaps, that currently means sticking with the USL until it is time to move up to MLS.

I am by no means opposed to a Canadian domestic league... I just don't think the Vancouver Whitecaps belong in it.

Moving from USL to a brand new CSL full of rookie franchises and comparitively inexperienced competitors would be a step down, if you ask me. That's not good for the Whitecaps, nor is it good for the Impact.

Toronto? Well... if the Lynx want to volunteer as the cornerstone of the new CSL, so be it.

Once upon a time I think you could argue that the A-League \ USL teams weren't any better than the semi-pros in the CPSL or PCSL.

I think those days are gone. The USL teams I've seen this year have been extremely competitive.

Also intersting to see that Vancouver is no longer limiting its roster to local kids. Many of our best players this year, such as Steve Klein and Joey Gjertsen to name a few, have come to us from the USA.

I hope we see a return of the CSL someday, but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon.

Right now Vancouver has too many cards on the table to go slumming it on shabby high school pitches in Red Deer and Moose Jaw.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

And if people won't support 2nd division sports (triple A baseball, AHL, etc.), why do you think they would support 17th division (what a CSL would be in the soccer world)? Even Toronto MLS, although I believe would be successful, it will be a tough sell.

And how many of those cities lost their AHL or Triple A teams because of a lack of support?

[leekoo]

quote:Truth be told, I couldn't give a rat's arse about the Vancouver Whitecaps impact on national player development or the men's national team.

It is not the job or responsibility of any Canadian USL\MLS franchise to develop national team players. These teams are independent businesses, and should be run as such. Their job is to win soccer games and to put arses in the stands.

they also have to MAKE FANS ... club fans, other club fans (rivals), and league fans ... how many fans have been made ... how many fan-making businesses are there ...

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by strobe_z

Well. I'd be happy to challenge that notion as well. Your viewpoint is not alone and I have seen it before as well. But as I have said before, I see it from a totally perspective. I do not believe in the " should just hitch our horses to the USA's train." syndrom at all. Nor do I believe that business entities like the NBA, MLB and NHL are into charities and philaltropy. They only care about the $$$ or more specifically maximizing wealth not about doingf welfare. Whether a frnchise is in Canada, US, mexico is irrelevant. Toronto isn't in the nBA because the NBA wants to be nice to Canada. They are in Toronto because they want to be there and they ( the toronto market)contributes signicantly to making the NBA and its clubs more wealthy. And they have. The raptors and basketball canada need not be indebted or gratefull to the US for letting us into the NBA. The NBA should be greatfull that the NBA is in toronto since its one of the stronger franchises attendance-wise, its opened up new corporate sponsorship opporunities, new/increaed revenues form broadcast right ( ie.; TSN, RSN, radio). the raptors are there because they belong, not because the NBA is nice. The same applies to the canadian teams in the NHL, MLB and in the MLS.

The MLS needs us as badly as we need them. If they didn't, then we wouldn't be having this talk at all.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by LMW

You people from Toronto are really really f.cked in the head. No wonder you are looked down on by the rest of Canada. As a Canadian I would want to see Canadian teams play each other, just like in the CSL where the quality of play was GOOD. I bet you are ashamed of anything Canadian? including yourself dumbaass.

Hey, no need to keep trying. I've told you, you already won the award for this year, and its too early for 2006.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by strobe_z

As for the many arguments of a CSL not catching up to the MLS any time soon... well who the hell cares? I'd prefer to have 8-10 small, solid teams in the main Canadian markets stick around for 80 to a 100 years and develop a history and a following.

EXACTLY!!!!![^]

You can add my name to the poll as a Pro-CSL not living in a potential MLS "market".

Supporting (insert sport here) is not about sponsors, overpaid primadonnas or ancestry. Supporting (insert sport here) is about pride in your community and the athletes who represent the community.

Sure that's f#@*&%$g naive in the world of global brands and corporate tyranny but so what? I prefer to think of it as idealism. As a supporter of a national team I am already an idealist since the global corporate elite would love nothing more than to be rid of the quaint and naive notion that players should represent their country rather than some fat prawn sandwich eating CEO.

The only reason MLSE or any other corporate entity would go for MLS instead of a new CSL is beacuse they are lazy and ignorant. Too ignorant to even know their are other options possible and too lazy to search out such options and build something. (BTW I speak of the corporations. The individuals who work there are certainly NOT ignorant or lazy but a corporation as an entity thinks and acts very differently than the sum of it's parts.)

Sadly, ranting about it on these forums is not likely to change anything which is why I only do it occasionaly now.[]

[RealGooner]

The only reason MLSE or any other corporate entity would go for MLS instead of a new CSL is beacuse they are lazy and ignorant. Too ignorant to even know their are other options possible and too lazy to search out such options and build something.

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

quote:Originally posted by leekoo

they also have to MAKE FANS ... club fans, other club fans (rivals), and league fans ... how many fans have been made ... how many fan-making businesses are there ...

Ahh, the stigma of the minor professional sports owner. "Here's a team, now support it or it'll be gone...". Sadly, all of the teams that go this route do nothing to promote their events. The new W-league team in Hamilton will be no different.

I look at the Thunder, and I'm sure they must be pretty happy with the crowds they do get, since short of a piece on the club, they do no advertising for the club in the paper, and likely not on the radio either. But for a couple of hundred per game, this is a great turnout for them. The nice part is, they haven't started crying poor... yet.

That is why Calgary and Edmonton died in the USL. It was either alienating their fans or failing to tell their fans that a game is coming up.

I am sure that many owners look to the minor leagues and see $$ in some sort of get-rich-quick scheme. What is required are owners to build a club and not just simply profit from it. Saputo and Kerfoot have built clubs and a community about the clubs and have taken responsibility to ensure people show up (putting competitive teams on the field, promotion, advertising...).

We have taken our 'freak show' on the road to other clubs in the CPSL, and we haven't seen a single indicator from anyone in the stands to want to start a rival supporters club themselves. So Hamilton creates its own rivals (London, St. Catherines, now Oakville) but we have no one to counter us (which is why the idea of the USL seems so nice). No one in the league (except those furthest away) draws any type of crowd to give a damn past friends and families. That is the problem of their owners.