Canadian Players Need A Canadian League

[L.T.]

Here's an editorial I wrote today. The opinions of the Voyageurs are encouraged (as always)!

Canadian Players Need A Canadian League

August 1, 2005

(Lino Terra, Editor) - There is a prevailing fallacy in Canadian men’s soccer that needs to be exposed. It is the belief that the success of the national team and soccer in general is dependent on getting players onto European clubs. Recent evidence suggests that this is simply not the case.

Canada has roughly 20-30 players playing first team football in various 1st & 2nd division European leagues, as well as a good number playing in lower leagues or at the youth level. The United States, with 10 times the population, has about the same number, while perennial North American powerhouse Mexico has but a handful of players based in foreign leagues.

Full Article on OntarioSoccerWeb.com

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by L.T.

Here's an editorial I wrote today. The opinions of the Voyageurs are encouraged (as always)!

Canadian Players Need A Canadian League

August 1, 2005

(Lino Terra, Editor) - There is a prevailing fallacy in Canadian men’s soccer that needs to be exposed. It is the belief that the success of the national team and soccer in general is dependent on getting players onto European clubs. Recent evidence suggests that this is simply not the case.

Canada has roughly 20-30 players playing first team football in various 1st & 2nd division European leagues, as well as a good number playing in lower leagues or at the youth level. The United States, with 10 times the population, has about the same number, while perennial North American powerhouse Mexico has but a handful of players based in foreign leagues.

Full Article on OntarioSoccerWeb.com

I think you covered pretty much all base's in my opinion. I'll bet that some will take issue with your players assessments/ and talent evaluation. That is to be expected since afterall, its normal for fans to overestimate talent. None the less, IMO, I agree that we do lack the kind of player(s) who is used to playing a central role within their team, be the key "go to guy" and who is/are at the same time playing at high world class level. Perhaps Radzinski would have been that player but unfortunately when this round of WCQ came around it was maybe 2-3 years too late. He has been a good players in recent years but not been the same player that be was in his first year at Everton just prior to his injury whereby he was challenging to be the top goal scorer in the EPL.

The ideal scenario would be a domestic league. But there is no chance that you will find 10-12 markets in Canada where you have the proper corporate support, the right facilities, a loyal fan base, and population levels and economic activity that support a true professional sports operation. furthermore, history does not show any evidence that there are 10-12 markets where you can average 8-12K per game on average. And even if there was, we would have a professional baseball league before you would ever see a professional soccer league. So MLS is the only way to go. Even if its only one or two teams. Thats better than zero teams.

Finally, as you somewhat alluded to, with players spread throughout different countries and clubs that play different styles, it makes it hard to find the right formula in style that everyone can buy into and accept. I agree that the euro strategy has not been successfull in retrospect. IMO its because too many players went over too early or too quickly. Consequently they did not end up in the kind of professional setting that will help them for our national teams to the extent of making up for what we we lose in performance as result of travel, displacement, and other factors.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by L.T.

Here's an editorial I wrote today. The opinions of the Voyageurs are encouraged (as always)!

Canadian Players Need A Canadian League

August 1, 2005

(Lino Terra, Editor) - There is a prevailing fallacy in Canadian men’s soccer that needs to be exposed. It is the belief that the success of the national team and soccer in general is dependent on getting players onto European clubs. Recent evidence suggests that this is simply not the case.

Canada has roughly 20-30 players playing first team football in various 1st & 2nd division European leagues, as well as a good number playing in lower leagues or at the youth level. The United States, with 10 times the population, has about the same number, while perennial North American powerhouse Mexico has but a handful of players based in foreign leagues.

Full Article on OntarioSoccerWeb.com

I think you covered pretty much all base's in my opinion. I'll bet that some will take issue with your players assessments/ and talent evaluation. That is to be expected since afterall, its normal for fans to overestimate talent. None the less, IMO, I agree that we do lack the kind of player(s) who is used to playing a central role within their team, be the key "go to guy" and who is/are at the same time playing at high world class level. Perhaps Radzinski would have been that player but unfortunately when this round of WCQ came around it was maybe 2-3 years too late. He has been a good players in recent years but not been the same player that be was in his first year at Everton just prior to his injury whereby he was challenging to be the top goal scorer in the EPL.

The ideal scenario would be a domestic league. But there is no chance that you will find 10-12 markets in Canada where you have the proper corporate support, the right facilities, a loyal fan base, and population levels and economic activity that support a true professional sports operation. furthermore, history does not show any evidence that there are 10-12 markets where you can average 8-12K per game on average. And even if there was, we would have a professional baseball league before you would ever see a professional soccer league. So MLS is the only way to go. Even if its only one or two teams. Thats better than zero teams.

Finally, as you somewhat alluded to, with players spread throughout different countries and clubs that play different styles, it makes it hard to find the right formula in style that everyone can buy into and accept. I agree that the euro strategy has not been successfull in retrospect. IMO its because too many players went over too early or too quickly. Consequently they did not end up in the kind of professional setting that will help them for our national teams to the extent of making up for what we we lose in performance as result of travel, displacement, and other factors.

[Luis_Rancagua]

Lino, this is an excellent article.

Let me say it again. I don't think that 1 MLS Canadian club will solve Canada's soccer problems. I wish Kevan Pipe and all the morons of the CSA could get this point through their dumb heads of theirs. What's really missing in your article is the concept of amalgamating the provincial leagues. This is perhaps an important step towards Open Cup concept.

[Luis_Rancagua]

Lino, this is an excellent article.

Let me say it again. I don't think that 1 MLS Canadian club will solve Canada's soccer problems. I wish Kevan Pipe and all the morons of the CSA could get this point through their dumb heads of theirs. What's really missing in your article is the concept of amalgamating the provincial leagues. This is perhaps an important step towards Open Cup concept.

[Passive Observer]

I always thought that a Canadian League was the way to go, but I've changed my mind. I think joining MLS is now the better option. First, MLS is now a stable league. It has multiple wealthy investors and soccer centric stadiums. Next, America is an economic super power and MLS will always be a stronger league than any proposed Canadian league, thus economically and competitively it is better for Canadian clubs to be in the MLS. Lastly, who knows how viable a pro Canadian league will be? Why take the risk when MLS is willing to let Canadian teams in?

Three Canadian teams in MLS will mean 60 Canadians playing at the MLS level. Right now, if you include the Canadians that get regular playing time in Europe we probably have about 10 - 15 players playing at the MLS level or above. So that means we will have 5x as many players in our talent pool.

Undoubtedly, playing in the MLS will draw more interest in Canadian players and even some USA MLS sides will sign Canadians as imports. Also we shouldn't forget the extra media coverage and boost to youth soccer that joining the MLS will bring. It will get more kids wanting to be professional soccer players. Bottom line - Canadian soccer, while perhaps not reaching the level of USA or Mexico, will be a lot better than it is today.

As for the article, I think you are overanalyzing things. Reason that Canada stinks is the fact that we have such a small pool of players to choose from and most of them have not been well developed by canadian soccer. We have a few dozen Euros and 75 USL players and no real player development system. The USA has a few dozen Euros + 200 MLS players + 160 USL players + College soccer to groom thousands of players + special soccer academies like IMG, MLS Adidas Project, etc.

[Passive Observer]

I always thought that a Canadian League was the way to go, but I've changed my mind. I think joining MLS is now the better option. First, MLS is now a stable league. It has multiple wealthy investors and soccer centric stadiums. Next, America is an economic super power and MLS will always be a stronger league than any proposed Canadian league, thus economically and competitively it is better for Canadian clubs to be in the MLS. Lastly, who knows how viable a pro Canadian league will be? Why take the risk when MLS is willing to let Canadian teams in?

Three Canadian teams in MLS will mean 60 Canadians playing at the MLS level. Right now, if you include the Canadians that get regular playing time in Europe we probably have about 10 - 15 players playing at the MLS level or above. So that means we will have 5x as many players in our talent pool.

Undoubtedly, playing in the MLS will draw more interest in Canadian players and even some USA MLS sides will sign Canadians as imports. Also we shouldn't forget the extra media coverage and boost to youth soccer that joining the MLS will bring. It will get more kids wanting to be professional soccer players. Bottom line - Canadian soccer, while perhaps not reaching the level of USA or Mexico, will be a lot better than it is today.

As for the article, I think you are overanalyzing things. Reason that Canada stinks is the fact that we have such a small pool of players to choose from and most of them have not been well developed by canadian soccer. We have a few dozen Euros and 75 USL players and no real player development system. The USA has a few dozen Euros + 200 MLS players + 160 USL players + College soccer to groom thousands of players + special soccer academies like IMG, MLS Adidas Project, etc.

[Free kick]

Your last paragraph is good food for thought. you state:

"The CSA and provincial associations need to rethink their funding priorities. Is it really necessary to run national teams at U15? Do we really need to send 14-year-olds to Peru to play in poorly organized tournaments? I believe that not one more cent of funding should go to sending players outside the country. The results are not justifying the investment. If they want to expose players to international football – bring their coaches here. It is a lot cheaper to fly one person to Canada than 25 to Europe. Funding should go to help pay the salaries of promising young talent so that they can stay in Canada and be on the field for 90 minutes playing in the center of midfield or anchoring the back four. If we give our players the opportunity to succeed (and sometimes fail) in pressure situations, we will be rewarded at the international level."

Though to say. If he CSA or prov ass. are not involved in the development at this age, then who will? Idially, I think that it should be the private sector who overseas this area. But we need an operation like an MLS team in order for that to happen.

[Free kick]

Your last paragraph is good food for thought. you state:

"The CSA and provincial associations need to rethink their funding priorities. Is it really necessary to run national teams at U15? Do we really need to send 14-year-olds to Peru to play in poorly organized tournaments? I believe that not one more cent of funding should go to sending players outside the country. The results are not justifying the investment. If they want to expose players to international football – bring their coaches here. It is a lot cheaper to fly one person to Canada than 25 to Europe. Funding should go to help pay the salaries of promising young talent so that they can stay in Canada and be on the field for 90 minutes playing in the center of midfield or anchoring the back four. If we give our players the opportunity to succeed (and sometimes fail) in pressure situations, we will be rewarded at the international level."

Though to say. If he CSA or prov ass. are not involved in the development at this age, then who will? Idially, I think that it should be the private sector who overseas this area. But we need an operation like an MLS team in order for that to happen.

[Passive Observer]

quote:Originally posted by Luis_Rancagua

Lino, this is an excellent article.

Let me say it again. I don't think that 1 MLS Canadian club will solve Canada's soccer problems. I wish Kevan Pipe and all the morons of the CSA could get this point through their dumb heads of theirs. What's really missing in your article is the concept of amalgamating the provincial leagues. This is perhaps an important step towards Open Cup concept.

Dutch soccer basically is a result of three clubs PSV, Ajax and Feynerood. They develop and produce nearly the entire Dutch national team. That is all Canada need - three clubs that have an incredible youth system. Canada does not need to produce hundreds of great players to be competitive, all we need is a squad of 25 players that are good enough to beat the likes of Costa Rica, Guatemala, Jamaica and can win a few points from the USA and Mexico. It can be done. Believe people, believe!

[Passive Observer]

quote:Originally posted by Luis_Rancagua

Lino, this is an excellent article.

Let me say it again. I don't think that 1 MLS Canadian club will solve Canada's soccer problems. I wish Kevan Pipe and all the morons of the CSA could get this point through their dumb heads of theirs. What's really missing in your article is the concept of amalgamating the provincial leagues. This is perhaps an important step towards Open Cup concept.

Dutch soccer basically is a result of three clubs PSV, Ajax and Feynerood. They develop and produce nearly the entire Dutch national team. That is all Canada need - three clubs that have an incredible youth system. Canada does not need to produce hundreds of great players to be competitive, all we need is a squad of 25 players that are good enough to beat the likes of Costa Rica, Guatemala, Jamaica and can win a few points from the USA and Mexico. It can be done. Believe people, believe!

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Passive Observer

Dutch soccer basically is a result of three clubs PSV, Ajax and Feynerood. They develop and produce nearly the entire Dutch national team. That is all Canada need - three clubs that have an incredible youth system. Canada does not need to produce hundreds of great players to be competitive, all we need is a squad of 25 players that are good enough to beat the likes of Costa Rica, Guatemala, Jamaica and can win a few points from the USA and Mexico. It can be done. Believe people, believe!

Yes... exactly. and that is a point that I have made several times. Take the case of Estonia, a side that we lost 2-1 to in a freindly two years ago, they played us using a side whereby practically every player on that squad played for one domestic club. The few that didn't, played abroad.

[Richard]

I agree that in an ideal world the best for Canadian soccer might be a domestic, fully profesisonal first division league with twelve or more clubs across the country from St Johns Newfoundland to Victoria British Columbia employing the majority of our MNT, paying players competitive salaries and playing regularly before sellout crowds in 10,000+ seat stadiums each owned and controlled by the individual clubs, plus a national TV deal.

No matter how much we wish for it and no matter what the CSA does within the limits of its resources and legal limitations, it isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future for a whole host of reasons that everybody here is well aware of.

So, the next best thing is to look to the USL and ultimately the MLS to plug the gap which is precisely what the CSA and others are trying so hard to bring about. This doesn't mean we should forget about our dream of a domestic league but there is no rational alternative for the short to medium term.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

The ideal scenario would be a domestic league. But there is no chance that you will find 10-12 markets in Canada where you have the proper corporate support, the right facilities, a loyal fan base, and population levels and economic activity that support a true professional sports operation. furthermore, history does not show any evidence that there are 10-12 markets where you can average 8-12K per game on average.

Then I take it you aren't a fan of th CFL ? To say we don't have 10 markets in Canada that can achieve a reasonable attendance is false.

How many cities in Canada have populations of over 500,000 ? 10, 12 ?

If the CSA had not been in the pocket of the USL, the CSL would probably still be in operation today.

[Grizzly]

I agree with some of this article but there are a great many inaccuracies as well. The lack of leadership argument upon which much of the article is based is not accurate. DeGuzman was one of the most talented players on his team game in and game out in Hannover for several seasons so if skilled leadership is what you are considering he definitely fits the bill. Stalteri was not one of Bremen's most skilled players but he was a leader on the team as far as work ethic and respect of the other players, ie. Tie Domi style leadership. We also have several players in Scandanavia who could be seen as leaders on their respective teams most notably Hutchinson and if we are going to talk about leaders on the WCQ team certainly DeVos was a leader both in the MNT and his club side. Hume is also a leader at his club both on and off the field.

I don't think anyone would disagree that a high level domestic league would benefit our national team. The main disagreement is how to achieve this. I think the only way we could currently have domestic teams at the level needed to greatly improve our talent pool and keep players who would otherwise go to B level European leagues at home is to join the MLS with as many teams as possible. A nationwide Canadian league would in my opinion not have a sufficiently high level of play for at least a decade to be of great benefit. If MLS participation grew the sport as a spectator sport they could always form a national league later if this was deemed better. There is no doubt it would be better to have a core of national team players playing in Canada who would be joined by our top European players like the US does but this is moot until we have one or hopefully more teams playing at a high level.

The last paragraph is pretty strange in my opinion. While bringing in foreign coaches can be beneficial the players are still not getting experience playing against higher level players with different styles. Having a foreign coach for a couple of weeks does not expose players to international football as the article claims. I think sending youth teams to train and play in different countries is one of the best investments of the limited CSA funds we can have. As well, I think spending CSA money to pay the salaries of professional soccer players would be one of the worst ways to invest CSA funds. I doubt this would be legal under either FIFA or Canadian laws.

With all due respect LT, I think this article has a very narrow and simplistic solution to our problem. Before we blame players playing professionally in Europe as the reason for our lack of success, we need to have a coach who is putting our best players on the field. With the exception of the Belize series I don't think we have had our best players on the field in the last decade. We have had a decade of poor player selections due to Ossieck's personal relationships and whatever unexplained reasons motivated Yallop's selections exacerbated by a small talent pool. A couple of MLS teams would definitely help our talent pool and make it easier to get the team together but we will still need a competent coach who can get the best players on the field and an effective youth development system which includes international play. The lack of leadership problem has been far more a problem of lack of leadership at the head coach, CSA and provincial associations than a lack of player leadership.

[L.T.]

Thanks for the feedback...

Don't misunderstand me - I don't mean to blame the players. I truly believe we have a dozen or so top quality players to choose from. I'm trying to say that the problem is they don't get to play the 'go-to' positions on their teams, so they are never really comfortable playing that position for the national team.

The point I'm trying to make at the end is that due to our limited funding, only a very small number of players get this exposure to foreign competition. I've been involved in youth soccer for a long time, and a lot of these trips do not serve their intended purpose. Competition is not always appropriate for the skill level of the team, and the best players are not always selected.

I didn't really go into detail about the CSA paying salaries, but my intention was to suggest that the CSA could subsidize clubs that develop Canadian talent, not directly pay salaries.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

But if its false, then prove it otherwise. I present as supporting evidence the CSL( which didn't last) and the fact that we lost two USL teams last year. I don't know how stronger evidence I could present than that.

The CFL plays only nine home games per year and its teams have 50-80 years of history within their communities. They get tons of media coverage and public support because they are recognized as an important component in the cultural fabric of canada. Especially the Grey Cup. How could a new sports team/league ( much less for soccer) ever hope to garner than much recognition and brand loyalty. Yet with all those advantages that the CFL enjoys, seldom does a year go by where there isn't a financial fire to put. If you can't find investors to put a team in Halifax, how could you possibly hope to make a case for professional soccer. The key word is professional

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

How many cities in Canada have populations of over 500,000 ? 10, 12 ?

If the CSA had not been in the pocket of the USL, the CSL would probably still be in operation today.

The CSA in the pockets of the USL? I thought that it was the Caps that joined the APSL after the CSL pretty much folded. I am not aware of any involve or whate benefit there would be to the CSA to get in bed with the USL to the detriment of the CSL.

Also, I cannot stress this enough, but professional means its a business. A business needs to earn revenues ( sell tickets)and meet expenses ( pay salaries). You also need a product to sell (ie.: quality on the pitch and facilities). How can one make a business case for anything beyond semi-pro level and what good will semi pro do us when we have to go against US, Mex, CRC, Honduras and the rest of the global competition? Doesn't it tell you everything you need to know when an organization like MLSE is willing to invest in MLS, but no investors are willing to step forward to put teams in canada?

Consider also importance of baseball in Canada and the number of sucessfull Major league players that we have produced. Yet many of the minor league basball teams are either struggling or have disappeared.

You need market size and corporate support, sponsorships..ect to be a professional outfit. Anything otherwise is not professional and do we really need that? We already have such leagues in ontario (CPSL) and BC ( PCSL), and Quebec.

[Grizzly]

I think the problem is not so much not having Canadian players as go-to guys but not having enough Canadian players playing at a high level in general. Certainly DeGuzman, Radzinski, Hutchinson, Klukowski (with La Louviere not Bruges), DeVos and Hume were all go-to guys on their teams which is not a bad percentage of the team. There is a problem that only two of these players are midfielders and not offensive mids at that but this again points to the general lack of a large talent pool. We have also been very weak at keeper since Forrest retired although Sutton looks to at least have shown promise as a competent and consistent keeper. It is also necessary for the coach to call these players and play them in a tactical formation in which they can excel. The largest problem is that we are weak at certain positions, lack depth, too many of our players in Europe are playing in mediocre not top European leagues and our players in Canada are playing in a 3rd division level league.

I think having a few Canadian teams playing at MLS level would do wonders for developing our talent pool and depth. The top players would still go to Europe but we would have a much larger group of decent domestic players. However, at the present situation there is no alternative to our best and most promising going to Europe and most of the A-team being formed by these players. The USL is just not near the level of competition our national team players need. Occasionally a group of lower skilled players who play together often can outperform a more talented team (i.e. Guatemala in WCQ) but I don't think this will provide any lasting improvement to our results other than the odd blip (Gold Cup victory).

I do not think that it is the task of the CSA to provide financial support to a pro sports league whether directly to the clubs of by some other means. As far as the foreign trips I think they are fully warranted. However, maybe there should be changes in which trips are selected and who is selected to play on these teams.

[An Observer]

I have said it before and I will say it again, the best way for Canada to develop in soccer is to integrate our teams and leagues with the U.S. We currently have a handful of players in Europe (some of which are quite good) and a few dozen U.S. second division players. To form a Canadian league, you would dilute the already small Canadian talent pool so that the Montreal Impact players would not only be not playing at a higher level but would be playing for example against a crappy Calgary side or Ottawa side. We cannot fight geography or the fact that the U.S. is better resourced than us in soccer at the moment. To start another Canadian league, is a huge risk considering that currently we only have two successfuly professional clubs, one that is just surviving and therefore we would have to find at least 5 more ownership groups, and adequate stadiums to fill the void and stock these teams with current amateur players from the PCSL, CPSL or the provincial leagues and then hope enough people come out to watch these games to make it viable. That is a HUGE risk and PWC (I think it was them or was it KPMG) was right to find that a few years back when they did a study of a possible league. At best, this league would probably never be anything better than second tier to the MLS...which is not good for our soccer development.

I think if you are evaluating this on a risk basis from the CSA's perspective, it is a far greater possibiliy that MLSE in Toronto, Saputo in Montreal, and Kerfoot in Vancouver will all end up owning MLS sides than starting a viable Canadian league. You currently have two solid USL franchises that are both intent on building their own SSSs and you have one other committed group in Toronto with a proven track record with mananging professional sports franchises at the top level. So the likely hood that within 5 years time you will have 3 sides in the MLS is pretty strong (especially considering current statements of the MLS Commissioner that they are open to expansion into Canada). In this way you have just opened the door to having 30 - 35 more places for Canadians to play at a higher level than a Canadian league will ever produce.

As I have said before, the MLS is not the only piece to the puzzle. The best Canadian players will always play in Europe and that should continue to be encouraged. But the MLS gives a place to players such as Pozniak, Adelmou and others that have had to go over seas to make a living, and others like Clark, Arristodomeo who have stayed in Canada and struggled to make a living at the game. But beyond the MLS, there needs to be a commitment by the CSA to try to get more USL 1st division sides into Victoria, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Hamilton, and Quebec (and possibly Halifax). These will be the feeder clubs to the MLS sides and make sure that young Canadians have a chance to play semi-professional football locally in order that they may develop. The way to get this is to use the exposure (eg. national tv contract, greater press) that the MLS will bring in Canada to help these cities realise there is a future for professional soccer within Canada in order that those cities can support the development of 5k to 10k stadiums. Without that exposure, you will find it difficult to convince these cities (especially Calgary and Edmonton) to support the building of such facilities.

In this way, you will have a pyramid structure that will enable us to compete with the U.S. and Mexico albeit we will always lack their depth. But our depth will be improved tremendously by the MLS. Imagine if during the last World Cup we could have called upon more central defenders and keepers that had MLS experience (when players like Onstad had faltered there would not have been the reluctance to play Sutton if he was starting and starring in the MLS). In my mind, the MLS is the only way forward. A Canadian league is a step backward.

[Passive Observer]

Maybe it's the fact that our screen names are similar, but I agree with you 100%. You should be the Prez. of the CSA.

[RealGooner]

An Observer, I also agree 100%. That is a most balanced and reasoned post. Funny thing is, the points you make seem to mirror exactly the moves that the much maligned Kevin Pipe of the CSA seems to be making. Maybe people should stop focussing on how much they hate the messenger, and focus on Mr Pipe's message, which is that a C-league is not viable short-to medium term. We need to be creative and take full advantage of the MLS, USL and Euro leagues to improve our standing.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

But if its false, then prove it otherwise. I present as supporting evidence the CSL( which didn't last) and the fact that we lost two USL teams last year. I don't know how stronger evidence I could present than that.

The CFL plays only nine home games per year and its teams have 50-80 years of history within their communities. They get tons of media coverage and public support because they are recognized as an important component in the cultural fabric of canada. Especially the Grey Cup. How could a new sports team/league ( much less for soccer) ever hope to garner than much recognition and brand loyalty. Yet with all those advantages that the CFL enjoys, seldom does a year go by where there isn't a financial fire to put. If you can't find investors to put a team in Halifax, how could you possibly hope to make a case for professional soccer. The key word is professional

The CSA in the pockets of the USL? I thought that it was the Caps that joined the APSL after the CSL pretty much folded. I am not aware of any involve or whate benefit there would be to the CSA to get in bed with the USL to the detriment of the CSL.

Also, I cannot stress this enough, but professional means its a business. A business needs to earn revenues ( sell tickets)and meet expenses ( pay salaries). You also need a product to sell (ie.: quality on the pitch and facilities). How can one make a business case for anything beyond semi-pro level and what good will semi pro do us when we have to go against US, Mex, CRC, Honduras and the rest of the global competition? Doesn't it tell you everything you need to know when an organization like MLSE is willing to invest in MLS, but no investors are willing to step forward to put teams in canada?

Consider also importance of baseball in Canada and the number of sucessfull Major league players that we have produced. Yet many of the minor league basball teams are either struggling or have disappeared.

You need market size and corporate support, sponsorships..ect to be a professional outfit. Anything otherwise is not professional and do we really need that? We already have such leagues in ontario (CPSL) and BC ( PCSL), and Quebec.

The CSL folded because the CSA wanted to let it fold. To "what benefit" ? It got the CSA off the hook for being involved in the creation of a pro league. They no longer needed to roll up their sleeves and get to work, because they could simply let the USL run the show. In doing so, they essentially surrendered our ability to have a domestic league and to date we still have no professional cup. The CSA publicly declared their support of the APSL, so this point is not up for debate.

For example, all legal professional contracts of the Winnipeg Fury were suddenly declared null and void. We had a powerhouse club that was laden with top talent, yet overnight the Winnipeg Fury and North York Rockets lost every player, despite the fact they were all under legal, CSA registered contract.

Everyone involved in soccer at that time knows the CSA could have kept the CSL alive, but instead chose to let it die.

The CSA publicly stated their support for the APSL, and ruled all CSL contracts void. How could any prospwective owner have stepped up under those conditions ? That is what killed the CSL.

"You need market size and corporate support, sponsorships..ect to be a professional outfit." - If you don't believe a city of 500,000 can support a professional soccer club, then perhaps you can tell us which Canadian cities are capable of supporting professional sports ?

Regina has a population of 200,000 but can consistently outdraw the Argos with a population of 4.5 million and Montreal.

Winnipeg has a population of 650,000 but had larger crowds in the CSL than both TO and Montreal.

It doesn't matter how large the city, or the corporate support & sponsorship. If that was the case the Lynx wouldn't be consistently drawing flies despite the fact they have produced quality players and had quality teams over the years. What you need is ownership that is committed for the long term and prepared to nurture the product and take the losses over the years. MLS is no different. Every club in MLS loses money every year.

"Doesn't it tell you everything you need to know when an organization like MLSE is willing to invest in MLS, but no investors are willing to step forward to put teams in canada?" MLSE have not spent a penny on soccer in this country. Did not Greg Kerfoot and the Suputo family invest in soccer ? Your mirage of a white-knight in MLSE proves nothing.

If the CSA had shown the corporate savy and leadership that this country needs, then they would have channelled their energy into a proper business plan that would have provided the framework for a domestic professional league. That does not mean that it can't be done, it simply means the current CSA leadership lacks the leadership, expertise, and desire to lay the foundation for a proper professional domestic league.

[RealGooner]

Soccer is a non-starter at present in Alberta. Just because Regina supports the Riders desnt mean they'll support soccer. That leaves 4 cities for a CSL: Winnipeg, Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. Not viable. CSL is gone and not coming back in the foreseable future. Lets stop living in the past and realize the tough economic climate soccer exists in today. MLS here we come.

[Richard]

So Winnipeg Fury, every time its the fault of the CSA? What about the CSL owners and investors who walked away from the venture?

Frankly I am happy that the CSA chose not to become embroiled in a commercial, professional league other than in its proper role as a national governing body for the sport. That is not an appropriate way for our national organisation to spend the revenues it derives from youth and senior player dues across the country and sponsors. It is definitely not appropriate for the CSA to assume the financial risks associated with such a venture.

To what extent was or is the US Soccer Federation directly involved with the USL or MLS in terms of financial liability/risk? Would Americans tolerate their national federation gambling with their money in such a manner?

[Michael Crampton]

Thought the article was great Lino. I've always been up front about my bias - I support a Canadian League over MLS because I'm a Canadian fan who wants to watch my local team compete against other Canadian clubs. Your article made a reasonable arguement for a Canadian league as a vehicle for the success of the MNT.

As many in this thread have pointed out there are serious impediments to a Canadian league. But pre-MLS there were similar problems in the U.S. Consider:

-lack of appropriate stadia

-lack of domestic talent pool

-history of failure

Basically, the vision and hard-headed leadership of one guy (Rothenburg) and the money of three others (AEG, Kraft and Hunt) forced a league into existence. A league which some of us (Canadian Soccer Supporters) now see as the only viable short term vehicle for the imporvement of the MNT. The U.S. certainly had massive advantages (season, relatively successful and impoving MNT, money, existence of successful domestic leagues in other sports (pro and con), and the hosting of the '94 WC) but they (may) have managed to overcome the difficulties which they share with us. In fact, I'd say that the biggest thing that they have proved is that if you have a vision and the money to back it up that all of the problems I listed earlier will work themselves out over time.

To all those who ask where the investors are for a Canadian league: you are absolutely correct, it is hard to identify them now. That doesn't mean that the CSA (or a body delegated the task by them) shouldn't be looking though. Would any of us have named Greg Kerfoot as a potential owner of the Whitecaps prior to his purchase of the team? Contrary to popular perception we are a very wealthy nation. To say it will be hard is perfectly fair; to say that it would be impossible is needlessly pessimistic. And Richard, I'll beat you to it - a pitchable business model would have to be developed that could be sold to potential investors. To me this is the job that the CSA should be doing - so far I don't see it happening. Basically they feel that the KPMG report was the end of their responsibility as far as I can tell.

An Observer said - "We cannot fight geography"

Well if fighting geography hasn't been the story of Canada since day one then I don't know what has! We need a "National Policy" for Canadian soccer! What we need is a John A. MacDonald willing to fight for that sort of vision.

Mike.