Canadian Players Need A Canadian League

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by Luis_Rancagua

Do you actually think that MLSE really cares about building a serious national World-Cup development for Canada??? Do you really think with their 1 MLS bull-$hit team that MLSE will invest in the future of youth development??? I don't think so pal. They way you talk buddy, you sound like Kevan Pipe's mediocrate attitude of which he has always had for Canadian soccer.

I said they do NOT care. They only care about making money. My point is that if a new CSL made any financial sense, they would invest in that rather than MLS.

[Richard]

Ted, you have just confirmed for me that neither you nor anybody else is likely to convince MLSE, Kerfoot, Saputo or any other coporate interests to invest in a green fields CSL2 if they have the option of pursuing MLS. Furthermore I'll wager that if MLS doesn't happen, more USLD1 clubs will materialise long before anybody invests in CSL2.

[Richard]

As for any professional sports organisation giving a rat's ass about developing players for national teams, dream on. Even Kerfoot with his extensive youth club program in Vancouver I suggest is doing it only to build and broaden community support for his club's senior teams and put bums in seats for USLD1, W-League and ultimately MLS games. So far his strategy seems to be working as he builds towards selling out his 30,000 seat stadium on the Vancouver waterfont for MLS games. I suggest it would take a much bigger and more risky investment to achieve the same with a club in any CSL2 in the foreseeable future.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

As for any professional sports organisation giving a rat's ass about developing players for national teams, dream on. Even Kerfoot with his extensive youth club program in Vancouver I suggest is doing it only to build and broaden community support for his club's senior teams and put bums in seats for USLD1, W-League and ultimately MLS games. So far his strategy seems to be working as he builds towards selling out his 30,000 seat stadium on the Vancouver waterfont for MLS games. I suggest it would take a much bigger and more risky investment to achieve the same with a club in any CSL2 in the foreseeable future.

Absolutely Correct! We know Canadian soccer lacks financial resources to adequately develop this county's players . The CSA has smartly chosen to use the 'potential' presented by MLS franchises to lure in the only people who can help - savvy businesspeople with deep pockets! Without money, the CSL will be bushleague, and being bushleague wont do any more to develop our guys than the USL, CPSL, PDL etc are doing at the moment. Once again, we need our players playing at as high a level as we possibly can manage in Canada. I want to see the MNT kick some ass like never before, and high quality club soccer on display every year regardless of whether we have a CSL or not. We can't develop players with patriotism folks, and thats about all that CSL2 offers.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

As for any professional sports organisation giving a rat's ass about developing players for national teams, dream on. Even Kerfoot with his extensive youth club program in Vancouver I suggest is doing it only to build and broaden community support for his club's senior teams and put bums in seats for USLD1, W-League and ultimately MLS games. So far his strategy seems to be working as he builds towards selling out his 30,000 seat stadium on the Vancouver waterfont for MLS games. I suggest it would take a much bigger and more risky investment to achieve the same with a club in any CSL2 in the foreseeable future.

I totally agree. A bush league CSL 2 is the very last thing that this country needs. MLS is a nice carrot for the big boys and if this all comes to fruition, it will be the best thing to happen for Canadian soccer since 1986!

db

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Ted, you have just confirmed for me that neither you nor anybody else is likely to convince MLSE, Kerfoot, Saputo or any other coporate interests to invest in a green fields CSL2 if they have the option of pursuing MLS. Furthermore I'll wager that if MLS doesn't happen, more USLD1 clubs will materialise long before anybody invests in CSL2.

And you have just confirmed that you are perhaps the rudest person I have ever met. You pretend to be open to discussion then refuse to actually respond with anything more than snide remarks and personal attacks. You misrepresent my ideas and deride my abilities.

In EVERY post in this thread I have attacked corporate attitudes and misinformation not individuals. You on the other hand simply state I am wrong without providing ANY suporting arguments for your thesis other than "if it has not happened it is because it cannot."

A logical statement that would have prevented flight, open heart surgery, vaccination or thousands of other advances.

I hope you can reign in your personal dislike for me when it comes to the PCSL. I hope some sort of professionalism will be brought to bear when we have to work together to improve the league.

[Gerry Gentile]

Ted great to see that you're still fighting the good fight.

Luis, I know I promised to join in weeks ago .... my apologies. Not sure if I can contribute anything but I'll do my best. First I will need to read some of the history (6 pages!!!) to avoid repeating what has already been said. In the mean time, I know Luis suggested that perhaps I could answer some questions, so maybe we can start there. Cheers.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by ted

And you have just confirmed that you are perhaps the rudest person I have ever met. You pretend to be open to discussion then refuse to actually respond with anything more than snide remarks and personal attacks. You misrepresent my ideas and deride my abilities.

In EVERY post in this thread I have attacked corporate attitudes and misinformation not individuals. You on the other hand simply state I am wrong without providing ANY suporting arguments for your thesis other than "if it has not happened it is because it cannot."

A logical statement that would have prevented flight, open heart surgery, vaccination or thousands of other advances.

I hope you can reign in your personal dislike for me when it comes to the PCSL. I hope some sort of professionalism will be brought to bear when we have to work together to improve the league.

What a bizarre reaction from you Ted!

Do you react this way everytime somebody disagrees with you?

I don't dislike you, not in the least, I have no reason to. I simply remain unconvinced by the arguments I have seen you make here to support your theories about CSL2 and have said so, quite openly and honestly like others here have done. If you chose to take that as an indication that I dislike you personally then that's unfortunate but so be it, nothing much I can do about it.

Oh, and what does the PCSL have to do with any of this?

[ted]

quote:

What a bizarre reaction from you Ted!

Do you react this way everytime somebody disagrees with you?

No, only those people who appear to be baiting me with what appear to be honest open questioning and then responding with dismissive remarks like:

quote:

... dreaming in technicolour ...

and.

quote:

Handicapped before you even get to the starting line...

And of course the comment that crossed the line:

quote:

Ted, you have just confirmed for me that neither you nor anybody else is likely to convince MLSE, Kerfoot, Saputo or any other coporate interests to invest...

Now honestly, how else am I supposed to take such a series of comments? Sounds pretty personal to me and seems like you are not prepared to entertain rational discourse on this subject.

For you the subject is closed yet you asked questions, even invited discussion. But before any real discussion could happen you belittled me and dismissed the idea out of hand.

quote:

I don't dislike you, not in the least, I have no reason to.

(snip)

Oh, and what does the PCSL have to do with any of this?

I could only assume since you seemed to be so rude that you must have some sort of dislike of me. As for the PCSL, you are a key volunteer with the league and if you do have some sort of personal problem with me I need to know that it will not affect our respective work within the league.

I am glad to hear you bear me no personal animosity. I am sorry if I misconstrued your remarks. Rather than being mean-spirited they were just narrow-minded?

Are you willing to actually discuss this or are you going to simply say "No, it can't be done because it hasn't been done." to anything that might be posted?

I respect your work and your opinion but if you are not going to even be open to discussion I cannot waste my time trying to discuss this with you.

[Richard]

How many time must I say it Ted, I have nothing against you personally and certainly no dislike - I don't know you well enough if for no other reason. But I do admire your obvious passion and tenacious adherence to your conviction about the viability of a CSL2 as you see it.

As for your passion for a CSL2...

I have never set out to bait you, just responded to your posts.

I do think you're dreaming in technicolour because it isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future,

You have not yet presented an argument in this forum that convinces me a CSL2 along the lines that you and some others appear to envision, will or could happen any time soon under present circumstances, one cannot turn the clock back,

Certainly it would appear MLSE, Kerfoot and Saputo don't see CSL2 as a viable business alternative to the route they appear to have chosen for their clubs. They are certainly know more about business and especially the professional sports entertainment business than do I and I suspect you too, so I defer to their superior judgement on such issues. When it comes to for profit businesses one must be driven by hard facts Ted, not fairytales and dreamy wishlists.

"Now honestly, how else am I supposed to take such a series of comments?"

Like any other reasonable, rational, thinking person Ted.

"For you the subject is closed"

I don't know why you should think that, I merely hold a different point of view from you and you have yet to convince me you're right. How does that close the subject for either of us? I do remain to be convinced a CSL2 that stands a hope of competing with USL and MLS is practically and financially viable. Neither you nor anybody else has yet presented a convincing business case.

I am quite open to discussion but lose interest very quickly when arguments being put to me appear weak and unconvincing. It seems you're the one who is overly sensitive to your arguments being considered unconvincing.

I still don't know what the PCSL has to do with this exchange.

[G-Man]

No one really gives a rat ass about the success of pro soccer in Canada, let alone care enough to get to a game. You could spend a billion promoting it and it still would only draw enough in places like Ottawa or Calgary to support a PDL team.

This is not a soccer country. never has been and never will. It's a recreational sport and that's it.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

No one really gives a rat ass about the success of pro soccer in Canada, let alone care enough to get to a game. You could spend a billion promoting it and it still would only draw enough in places like Ottawa or Calgary to support a PDL team.

This is not a soccer country. never has been and never will. It's a recreational sport and that's it.

There are plenty of people who DO give MORE than a rat's ass about pro soccer in Canada despite what you may think.

[mrpopulistfutebol]

Count me as another one who gives a rat's A*** about professional futbol in Canada.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

When it comes to for profit businesses one must be driven by hard facts Ted, not fairytales and dreamy wishlists.

See, you are doing it again. I am trying to deal in hard facts and yet you characterize my words as "fairytales."

One more time then:

THESIS:

The amount of money required to start ONE MLS team in Canada could be better spent establishing a 10 team National League.

FACTS:

1. An MLS "franchise" currently requires a buy-in of minimum us$10M (app. cdn$12M).

2. The budget for a single team for one year of operations is reported to be between us$12-15M (for sake of argument we will use a cdn$15M figure which favours the pro-MLS argument.)

TOTAL EXPENDITURES TO END OF FIRST YEAR OPERATIONS: cdn$27M

NEW NATIONAL LEAGUE - PROPOSED START-UP BUDGET:

$4M - Start-up costs including a $1M buy-out/credit to the owners of the Whitecaps, Impact and Lynx as investor-operators (in single entity format)

$12M - operations budget for 10 teams (app. $1.2M each)

$1M - League operations

$2M - production and airtime for a game-of-the-week broadcast

$2M - League level marketing

TOTAL EXPENDITURES TO END OF FIRST YEAR OPERATIONS: cdn$21M

ATTENDANCES:

MLS TEAM - 10,000 per game would be a possible average for an MLS game in any of the three possible markets. This number may be high given current MLS attendances in the US and the demand for North American soccer in major Canadian markets.

CSL2 - A league average of 2,000 per game per venue x 10 venues yields a league average of 20,000. This number could easily be exceeded if Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto were to simply retain their current USL D1 attendance numbers.

Even if the average ticket price for CSL2 is only 1/2 of an MLS game the total revenue is still about even.

MARKETING:

MLS TEAM - One of the three largest metropolitan areas of Canada providing access to the richest region of Canada.

CSL2 - All three of the largest metropolitan areas of Canada plus seven "second tier" markets providing access to all regions of the country.

SPONSORS:

MLS TEAM - Sponsorships available provide primarily Canadian regional exposure with some national and US coverage mostly on specialty cable channels.

CSL2 - Sponsorships available would provide both local and national exposure. Total number of sponsorship oppportunties much higher allowing for a wider mix of sponsorship levels and opportunities.

SUMMARY:

The PRIMARY failure of previous attempts at a national league (according to the KPMG study) was insufficient money. No study or report has ever said it could not be done. It just comes down to having enough cash to get it going.

$27M, as I have shown with reasonable numbers, would be sufficient to do either a single MLS team or a 10-team national league. I have shown that the attendance potential alone is higher spread over 10 teams and all for a first year cost of $6M LESS. That $6M provides a leg-up on a second year of operation or a much larger national marketing campaign for the league start-up phase.

I know I am partisan but I still see no solid business case for choosing the MLS option and I still have no confidence that MLSE or Kerfoot or Saputo or anyone else who might be interested have ever seen the numbers presented this way.

[youllneverwalkalone]

If you compare the Whitecaps to SJ Earthquakes, for example, I don't see how one club could exist for 1.2m while the other would spend 15m? The gulf between these numbers seems too large. Can you breakdown this difference between the MLS and CSL2 budgets?

[David C.]

Hey Ted,

I applaud the work that you (and others?) have done - good read.

If I may, can I bounce a few questions/concerns off you? Please note that there are too many threads on this topic to pre-read, so I might be asking repeated points - apologies if I do.

1. MLS in Toronto:

Regardless of your "best financial" argument, I don't think that the current push for an MLS franchise in TO is going to go away. The league appears to be salivating over this market, a reliable owner is apparently on board (lease-dependant) and a stadium appears to finally be on the horizon (with one grandstand at Downsview and the other at the Ex - smile).

Can a CSL-2 co-exist with an MLS team? I don't know if there would be any FIFA implications here, considering that a CSL-2 would likely be considered a second tier league.

2. Vancouver and Montreal:

I can't remember if you have discussed your plans with these two ownership groups. My gut feeling is that they might prefer the apparent stability and higher playing standard of the A-League, rather than that of a CSL-2 but that is just a guess. Without their support, you face a difficult challenge, regardless of your proposed numbers.

3. Your posted numbers:

a) As YNWA mentioned, the discrepancy between MLS and CSL-2 team budgets seems overly huge.

Is a 1.2mil team budget enough to slow the flow of players heading to lower-tier Euro leagues? An MLS team would help in this regard. I doubt that a CSL-2 would?

c) Would a CSL-2 not need to include a league-wide budget to help cover the costs of flights and maybe hotels?

d) I like the fact that you include budgets for t.v. broadcasts and marketing, which would be necessary.

Just some curious thoughts. Cheers!

[youllneverwalkalone]

I could see running a base 18 man squad of university students for 1.2m. And there's nothing wrong with that -as an alternative to the NCAA for example.

What I can't believe MLS clubs actually spend that kind of cake??? I would have thought their operating budget would be in the 3-6m range, somewhere in the vacinity of the CFL.

We know from this NHL lock-out that at least 50% of operating expenses in sport typically relate to salaries. That would mean the average MLS salary is in the $300k range. Were that true, I'd say MLS is going bankrupt with attendance in the low 5 figures -even with sponsorship $$$.

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by ted

THESIS:

The amount of money required to start ONE MLS team in Canada could be better spent establishing a 10 team National League.

Let me try asking once more: So what?? Whoever is looking to invest in MLS, Option B is NOT a 10 team CSL. It's like saying the money for one MLS team can feed half of Africa. Yeah, so??

quote:Originally posted by ted

NEW NATIONAL LEAGUE - PROPOSED START-UP BUDGET:

$4M - Start-up costs including a $1M buy-out/credit to the owners of the Whitecaps, Impact and Lynx as investor-operators (in single entity format)

$12M - operations budget for 10 teams (app. $1.2M each)

$1M - League operations

$2M - production and airtime for a game-of-the-week broadcast

$2M - League level marketing

TOTAL EXPENDITURES TO END OF FIRST YEAR OPERATIONS: cdn$21M

Please tell me those are not the complete or serious numbers. Cause that is beyond fairytale.

$1-million for league operations? That's not even enough to pay the lawyers for all the paper work. Incorporating, trademarks, shareholders agreements, corporate bylaws, player contracts, stadium contracts, sponsorship contracts, tv contracts, and everything else (Okay, some of those are part of your start-up expenses, but there are still many contracts that lawyers would have to go over annually). You need at least 10 people working at league offices (marketing, media, sponsorships, etc. - this is supposed to be professional right?) at $60-70 000 = $700 000 right there. Plus office rent, expenses, and a ton of other little things that add up to a lot.

$2-million for marketing?? That's enough for like 1 ad on TSN and 1 ad in a local newspaper. Plus you need to pay people to actually produce the ads. Besides, local marketing is what would be needed in this case, so that's $200 000 a team. That's not even enough for the introductory press conference.

$1.2 million for each team?? If this is supposed to be professional, I'm assuming it means full-time players, full-time coaches, full-time front office staff, etc. How? Please break down these numbers for me. 20 players @ $30 000 = $600 000, plus 5 coaching staff (incl. GM, scouts, trainers, equip. managers, doctors, etc.) * $30 000 avg. = $150 000, plus 5 front office people * $50 000 = $250 000 so that's $1-million right there. So leaves $200 000 for everything else from stadium rent, game day costs, marketing, travel, accomodations, etc.

Attendance - those numbers you posted are mickey mouse accounting. Having 10 games compared to 1 means your expenses are 10 times more for everything from rent to officials to everything. So the revenue might be even, but your game day expenses are a lot more. Obviously Estadio Centennial is a little less expensive than Giants Stadium, but MLS is going away from that, and that won't be the case in Toronto.

Sponsors - any major national sponsor (and tv network) will be mostly interested in the Toronto market. Hence why all of you complain if MLS comes to Toronto, it would mean no chance for a CSL.

The only thing correct is the fact that past attempts have failed due to lack of funds.

THE MAIN DIFFERENCE (and solid business case for MLS) is the main reason you invest: future financial potential. The CSL highest potential = CFL. MLS potential = NFL.

So with $27-million you can purchase the CFL, or a share in the NFL. Do I really have to ask which you would do? Remember, money. Not nationalism, or developing athletes or anything else. This is simply about money, cause that is how you have framed the discussion.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by ted

See, you are doing it again. I am trying to deal in hard facts and yet you characterize my words as "fairytales."

One more time then:

THESIS:

The amount of money required to start ONE MLS team in Canada could be better spent establishing a 10 team National League.

FACTS:

1. An MLS "franchise" currently requires a buy-in of minimum us$10M (app. cdn$12M).

2. The budget for a single team for one year of operations is reported to be between us$12-15M (for sake of argument we will use a cdn$15M figure which favours the pro-MLS argument.)

TOTAL EXPENDITURES TO END OF FIRST YEAR OPERATIONS: cdn$27M

NEW NATIONAL LEAGUE - PROPOSED START-UP BUDGET:

$4M - Start-up costs including a $1M buy-out/credit to the owners of the Whitecaps, Impact and Lynx as investor-operators (in single entity format)

$12M - operations budget for 10 teams (app. $1.2M each)

$1M - League operations

$2M - production and airtime for a game-of-the-week broadcast

$2M - League level marketing

TOTAL EXPENDITURES TO END OF FIRST YEAR OPERATIONS: cdn$21M

ATTENDANCES:

MLS TEAM - 10,000 per game would be a possible average for an MLS game in any of the three possible markets. This number may be high given current MLS attendances in the US and the demand for North American soccer in major Canadian markets.

CSL2 - A league average of 2,000 per game per venue x 10 venues yields a league average of 20,000. This number could easily be exceeded if Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto were to simply retain their current USL D1 attendance numbers.

Even if the average ticket price for CSL2 is only 1/2 of an MLS game the total revenue is still about even.

MARKETING:

MLS TEAM - One of the three largest metropolitan areas of Canada providing access to the richest region of Canada.

CSL2 - All three of the largest metropolitan areas of Canada plus seven "second tier" markets providing access to all regions of the country.

SPONSORS:

MLS TEAM - Sponsorships available provide primarily Canadian regional exposure with some national and US coverage mostly on specialty cable channels.

CSL2 - Sponsorships available would provide both local and national exposure. Total number of sponsorship oppportunties much higher allowing for a wider mix of sponsorship levels and opportunities.

SUMMARY:

The PRIMARY failure of previous attempts at a national league (according to the KPMG study) was insufficient money. No study or report has ever said it could not be done. It just comes down to having enough cash to get it going.

$27M, as I have shown with reasonable numbers, would be sufficient to do either a single MLS team or a 10-team national league. I have shown that the attendance potential alone is higher spread over 10 teams and all for a first year cost of $6M LESS. That $6M provides a leg-up on a second year of operation or a much larger national marketing campaign for the league start-up phase.

I know I am partisan but I still see no solid business case for choosing the MLS option and I still have no confidence that MLSE or Kerfoot or Saputo or anyone else who might be interested have ever seen the numbers presented this way.

"The amount of money required to start ONE MLS team in Canada could be better spent establishing a 10 team National League."

Ted, this opening statement of yours undermines everything else you say because it is merely your opinion, not a statement of fact.

Furthermore, if the numbers you give here are what you would present to potential investors I suggest they would laugh you out of court Ted. As I have said before, I admire your passion and commitment but I'm afraid you are a long way from reality, in my opinion of course

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Ted, this opening statement of yours undermines everything else you say because it is merely your opinion, not a statement of fact.

Well Duh! What the F#*% do you think I meant when I used the heading 'THESIS"?

Perhaps you should look in a dictionary under the word "thesis". I propose something then use FACTS and ANALYSIS to prove or disprove my thesis.

What follows ("everything else" as you put it) is in support of the thesis NOT the other way around. Refute the argument with counter-argument if you can but to make the statement you did is ridiculous!

Sorry to be so upset but I feel like I have fallen down the rabbit-hole where "up" is "down" and "black" is "white"!

How can we have rational discussion when we are apparently not even speaking the same langauage?!!?!!

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by mrpopulistfutebol

Count me as another one who gives a rat's A*** about professional futbol in Canada.

Just the fact that you used the word "futbol" shows how marginal those that give a rats ass, about pro soccer in Canada are.

They’re more kids playing soccer than football. But there is a decent pro Football league in this country. The percentage of participants means nothing. Everyone walks, yet I don't see huge money making professional race walking circuit.

And they’re people who follow race walking. They know all the walkers, what kind of shoes they wear. They get together in pubs and talk about the golden days of race walking in the old country. They dream of a coast-to-coast race-walk circuit with hundreds if not thousands showing up. The firmly believe that if an all Canadian circuit could be set-up., it would help build a better national team. And then those god dam Danes wouldn’t take us so lightly!

They send nasty emails to the CBC and TSN for not showing the European Race Walking championship from Brussels. They argue about the validly of why racers are disqualified. They blame the national race walker association for not doing enough. I'm sure if you look hard enough there is a race walker forum board someone where. If we only had a decent race walk facility!

It’s a fetish.

Just like the people who participate in this thread more than 3 times have a fetish. I’m not knocking anyone, what ever turns you on.

But outside this forum…. I dare you to find more than 100 people who give a crap about it.

This is Canada. It’s not Germany or Brazil. We have enough pro leagues to entertain us and to keep us happy. We don’t need a Halifax/ Quebec City soccer game. And for those like me... Montreal vs Rochester gets me hard enough.

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Everyone walks, yet I don't see huge money making professional race walking circuit.

HAHAHA

I think that was your first ever useful post. []

Don't flatter yourself though, I don't remember any of your other posts.

Teddy, did I piss you off or something? Why won't you answer me? Do you not love me anymore? Why won't you love me? And stop taking everything so personal. It's not an attack on you. It's an attack on the fairytales you believe in. Just like if somebody believes in Santa Claus and the Toothfairy, and you tell them "No they don't exist", you are not attacking them.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by David C.

Hey Ted,

I applaud the work that you (and others?) have done - good read.

If I may, can I bounce a few questions/concerns off you? Please note that there are too many threads on this topic to pre-read, so I might be asking repeated points - apologies if I do.

I am always be happy to answer polite, thoughtful questions.

quote:

1. MLS in Toronto:

Regardless of your "best financial" argument, I don't think that the current push for an MLS franchise in TO is going to go away. The league appears to be salivating over this market, a reliable owner is apparently on board (lease-dependant) and a stadium appears to finally be on the horizon (with one grandstand at Downsview and the other at the Ex - smile).

Can a CSL-2 co-exist with an MLS team? I don't know if there would be any FIFA implications here, considering that a CSL-2 would likely be considered a second tier league.

Nope. Realisitically the chance of a CSL2 is already dead in the water so long as MLSE is "in discussion" with MLS.

I see no way a CSL2 could exists as a second division as much of the marketing would depend on being the top league in Canada and too much potential sponsorship money would be consumed by an MLS team.

quote:

2. Vancouver and Montreal:

I can't remember if you have discussed your plans with these two ownership groups. My gut feeling is that they might prefer the apparent stability and higher playing standard of the A-League, rather than that of a CSL-2 but that is just a guess. Without their support, you face a difficult challenge, regardless of your proposed numbers.

Yep, they would have to be onboard. Since they are apparently not this is all just a what-if exercise.

quote:

3. Your posted numbers:

a) As YNWA mentioned, the discrepancy between MLS and CSL-2 team budgets seems overly huge.

Is a 1.2mil team budget enough to slow the flow of players heading to lower-tier Euro leagues? An MLS team would help in this regard. I doubt that a CSL-2 would?

c) Would a CSL-2 not need to include a league-wide budget to help cover the costs of flights and maybe hotels?

d) I like the fact that you include budgets for t.v. broadcasts and marketing, which would be necessary.

a& The gulf is huge because in my vision of a CSL2 we are competing for players with lower-tier Euro teams not MLS or Euro Div 1 teams. All I have ever proposed to start is a national league on par with the A-League which eventually builds to something better than the A-League but not quite on the same level as MLS.

c) Probably but current A-League teams travel across North America (and beyond) on budgets in the range I have used.

d)They would be key for sure.

Thanks for asking.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by David C.

Hey Ted,

I applaud the work that you (and others?) have done - good read.

If I may, can I bounce a few questions/concerns off you? Please note that there are too many threads on this topic to pre-read, so I might be asking repeated points - apologies if I do.

I am always be happy to answer polite, thoughtful questions.

quote:

1. MLS in Toronto:

Regardless of your "best financial" argument, I don't think that the current push for an MLS franchise in TO is going to go away. The league appears to be salivating over this market, a reliable owner is apparently on board (lease-dependant) and a stadium appears to finally be on the horizon (with one grandstand at Downsview and the other at the Ex - smile).

Can a CSL-2 co-exist with an MLS team? I don't know if there would be any FIFA implications here, considering that a CSL-2 would likely be considered a second tier league.

Nope. Realisitically the chance of a CSL2 is already dead in the water so long as MLSE is "in discussion" with MLS.

I see no way a CSL2 could exists as a second division as much of the marketing would depend on being the top league in Canada and too much potential sponsorship money would be consumed by an MLS team.

quote:

2. Vancouver and Montreal:

I can't remember if you have discussed your plans with these two ownership groups. My gut feeling is that they might prefer the apparent stability and higher playing standard of the A-League, rather than that of a CSL-2 but that is just a guess. Without their support, you face a difficult challenge, regardless of your proposed numbers.

Yep, they would have to be onboard. Since they are apparently not this is all just a what-if exercise.

quote:

3. Your posted numbers:

a) As YNWA mentioned, the discrepancy between MLS and CSL-2 team budgets seems overly huge.

Is a 1.2mil team budget enough to slow the flow of players heading to lower-tier Euro leagues? An MLS team would help in this regard. I doubt that a CSL-2 would?

c) Would a CSL-2 not need to include a league-wide budget to help cover the costs of flights and maybe hotels?

d) I like the fact that you include budgets for t.v. broadcasts and marketing, which would be necessary.

a& The gulf is huge because in my vision of a CSL2 we are competing for players with lower-tier Euro teams not MLS or Euro Div 1 teams. All I have ever proposed to start is a national league on par with the A-League which eventually builds to something better than the A-League but not quite on the same level as MLS.

c) Probably but current A-League teams travel across North America (and beyond) on budgets in the range I have used.

d)They would be key for sure.

Thanks for asking.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

Let me try asking once more: So what?? Whoever is looking to invest in MLS, Option B is NOT a 10 team CSL. It's like saying the money for one MLS team can feed half of Africa. Yeah, so??

Not actually a reasonable comparison because I am speaking from a soccer fans persepective while you are speaking from the business persepective.

Let me ask you, if investing in an MLS team is far more risky and less likely to earn a profit than buying Treasury Bills or MacDonald's Franchises why are you not advocating that MLSE invest $27M in something that will actually make a profit? MLS has certainly NOT been profitable over the 10 years it has been running.

Very few soccer teams on this planet earn profit for their coporate owners. Anyone claiming that owning a soccer team is an out and out business decision based on best return for money is out to lunch.

From the soccer perspective more players playing pro soccer is better than a few players playing at a higher level in Canada. For the higher level they can play in MLS, England, Italy, Germany, wherever. What we need is a place for journeyman and young players to develop.

In the long term we would be better served on the field by a national league. That's just my opinion as a soccer fan. Corporate profits are a neccesary evil when speaking about sport but they will never take over as the primary consideration for me. I may be old-fashioned but sport should be about competition first and foremost.