Canadian Players Need A Canadian League

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Well judging from the study the CSA commissioned a while back the CSA set out minimum criteria for a successful domestic league and the study concluded those criteria could not be met, modest as they were. The CSA then proceeded with Plan B which was the USL and ultimately the MLS if a willing investor could be rustled up. Methinks the CSA plan B might just be working.

If you are talking about the KPMG study, it was such a joke that the CSA refused to pay for it.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Passive Observer

I'm at the point where I clearly feel MLS is the future. I don't see how anyone can envision that a Canadian league will one day be stronger than MLS. It's like the Scottish league catching up to the EPL - not going to happen. Canada is not not a soccer loving or a sports centric nation where broadcast and sponsorship dollars are unlimited. MLS has steadily progressed in the last 10 years and the trend will continue. Canada will regret not jumping on the future MLS gravy train.

This whole USSF conspiracy theory is total trash. MLS will do what is in their best interest.

Let's just say there were 8 strong canadian teams - I rather see all 8 of those teams in MLS, than in a Canadian league. Unlike The Raptors or the Blue Jays, Canadian clubs will have to field a majority of Canadian players, so it won't be a case of Americans exploiting a Canadian market.

I love how the MLS clubs in Canada keep multiplying. We have gone from 1 to 3 to 8, all in the span of days.

But that's just the point, there won't be 8 Canadian teams in MLS. There will be (MAYBE) one team in Toronto. And personally I would prefer a 8-10 team Canadian league over a single MLS club. The CSL did a fine job of producing quality players for Europe, and the quality of the league was vastly improved every year. And I might add that it was all done without a proper business plan.

Now if the CSA had balls and brains, perhaps they would only allow Toronto in MLS if there were assurances that Montreal and Vancouver would be included along with Toronto. Unfortunetly that is the same scenerio Canada faced when the CSA waived the white flag and invited the USL/APSL to divide and conquer Canadian soccer.

Yes, MLS will do what is in their interest, but who will act in Canada's best interest ?

[Passive Observer]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

I love how the MLS clubs in Canada keep multiplying. We have gone from 1 to 3 to 8, all in the span of days.

What I meant is that if there were 8 Canadian teams - I rather see them in MLS, then in an 8 team Canadian League.

Unless Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal are incredibly successful attendance wise, I don't envision more than 3 Canadian clubs in MLS. But it's not about quantity - it's quality that matters.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I don't think I am reading more than is there from your post. The above paragraph seems pretty strong in its conspiratorial claims to me. If this does not represent your viewpoint maybe you should revise this paragraph. My personal opinion is the MLS will do whatever is beneficial to its own interests (and not the interests of the USSF) and if this is also beneficial to our interests we should join them given that I don't see any evidence that a Canadian league is anywhere near starting up. I find it pretty hard to believe that the USSF would cancel MNT doubleheaders because the MLS has Canadian teams. The USSF which uses many MLS players for its national team and for player development is just as dependent if not moreso on MLS as vice versa. I doubt the state of Canadian soccer really concerns many USSF members, we are still quite a way from being a legitimate rival. The MLS will expand wherever they have a solid ownership and fanbase and if three Canadian cities can provide this and their owners can resolve the problems they have with league structure they will gain entry into the league.

Well, the term "conspiracy" implies an active intent to make something happen. I did said that my opinion was the USSF would prefer no canadian teams in MLS. But if they did accept one it would be in Toronto, for the reasons I stated. I also did not state that MLS would cancel MNT doubleheaders, simply illustrated that among the many ways in which MLS is beholden to USSF.

I think that the USSF does not engage in a whole lot of short term thinking, and thankfully so if one is an american. They didn't worry about the inital quality of play in MLS, something that many are concerned with vis a vis a Canadian League, and I think they recognize that a nation can turn itself around in less than a decade, since they themselves did so. You don't think the USSF worries about Canadian soccer? A high ranking official at the CSA disagrees with you and cited a fear on their part of not getting a result as why they will never play a full friendly with us. OK, CSA, hardly a ringing endorsement I'd want to soley hang my hat on, but if you think that the USSF is not thinking past next year, then I think you are mistaken.

As for MLS, given that they are looking at 18-20 teams, if they have any sort of financial viability, they can find american markets to fill slots 14-18/20 (assuming TO as 13) that are nearly as attractive as Vancouver, and just as attractive as Montreal. I don't see any USSF intransigence to Vancouver and Montreal as a barrier to MLS business aspiraions arriving at 18-20 teams. Perhaps if it was, I'd be more convinced that 3 teams in MLS was doable. Becasue undoubtedly, survival of MLS would supercede all other intersts.

[strobe_z]

Because no one asked for it, I've taken it upon myself to take a poll on this subject. Apologies in advance if I've mis-represented anyone.

Pro-CSL

-------

LT (Woodbridge, ON)

Free Kick (North York, ON)

Luis Rancagua (Toronto, ON)

Winnipeg Fury (Winnipeg, MB)

BHTC Mike (Burlington, ON)

DoyleG (Edmonton, AB)

mrpopulistfutebol (location unknown)

Gordon (Saskatoon, SK)

LMW (location unknown)

strobe_Z (Edmonton, AB)

Pro-MLS

---------

Passive Observer (location unknown)

Richard (Vancouver, BC)

Grizzly (location unknown)

An Observer (London, UK)

RealGooner (Toronto, ON)

Elias (Hamilton, ON)

Gian-Luca (Toronton, ON)

...with Cheeta voting on his own poll being Pro-Winnipeg Blue Bombers

Now this is very "scientifical" of course, but I get the impression (both from this latest chapter and others) that this debate largely breaks down along geo-graphic lines. If one takes into account the fact that all of us here have an interest in seeing Canada develop as a soccer nation, I think after that one's opinions are coloured by our own selfish perspectives.

For the most part, the people singing the praises of MLS team(s) in Canada live in areas where they stand to actually get a potential team. Well of course they think it's a good idea.. 'cause they'd GET teams. Despite what Gian-luca might believe - people in the rest of Canada aren't necessarily inclined to cheer for a token Toronto team as "Canada's Team". I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... Pro-teams are not in the business of supplying and refining talent for the national associations. Man U. does not care what the English FA thinks of their latest signings etc.. Pro leagues are in the sports entertainment business - any national player developement is a happy side-effect.

Wether or not a "new CSL" is actually viable is up for debate.. but so is MLS expansion. I don't have the answers, but I do know that an MLS team in Toronto will kill any hope of a new CSL because it will automatically render any other teams in a Canadian league as "Second Division". I choose not to support something that will kill my chances of having a local team to cheer for.

As for the many arguments of a CSL not catching up to the MLS any time soon... well who the hell cares? I'd prefer to have 8-10 small, solid teams in the main Canadian markets stick around for 80 to a 100 years and develop a history and a following. Will that mean I'll get a chance to see the Edmonton Drillers challenge for a World Super Pro Club Cup? No... but at least my grandkids won't be sitting around having the same lame arguments that we are. "You gotta start somewhere"... but people here seem to want to "start where they are". Hitching our horses to the MLS will mean that in a hundred years we will still only have 3 teams in an American league.

The whole idea of 3 teams in the MLS reminds me of the whole Celtic/Rangers attempt to jump to the EPL from the SPL. They whined "we're being held back from competing in Europe because of the poor quality of the league we're in" so they wanted in to the EPL. I couldn't help thinking... well instead of being jackasses and jumping to a foreign league.. why they hell don't they invest a little back into the SPL and improve the league as a whole. HAHA.. yeah right.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by LMW

Well I would nominate this as the stupidest post of the year since you clearly don't have the best interest of canadian soccer players and national teams in mind. How can you beleive that a player like Sita Taty Matondo would be better off developing in a league with 10-12 canadian teams wherby the talent is diluted to the extent that he is playing with and against some players of very marginal talent and soccer experiance , and also playing in league full of high school facilities and "Mom and Pop" ownership groups who who don't operate at a level to pay a full time salary and don't allow Matondo to grow within a professional environment. NOOOOOOO, according to you, Matondo or any other young player will develop better and become a successfull international by playing alongside CIAU graduates and fringe soccer players instead of international calibre players and full time proferssionals. Yes, according to you, its more important for Matondo that the team that he lines up against in his league is from Halifax, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Ottawa, Edmonton , kelowna, etc etc than it is to line up against a team containing players like Ruiz, Donovan, Guevarra or for that matter a players like Grande or Ze Roberto. Because according to you, the all important thing is that the the team Matondo faces on any given match has the words Halifax, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Ottawa, Edmonton , kelowna, etc on their jerseys instaed or Rochestor, Montreal Impact, Metrostars etc etc.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by strobe_z

Because no one asked for it, I've taken it upon myself to take a poll on this subject. Apologies in advance if I've mis-represented anyone.

Pro-CSL

-------

Free Kick (North York, ON)

Sorry, but that's one heck of a mis-representation - trust me, you've put him in the wrong camp! He's pro-MLS.

quote:

Despite what Gian-luca might believe - people in the rest of Canada aren't necessarily inclined to cheer for a token Toronto team as "Canada's Team".

I wasn't suggesting that - and I didn't even mention Toronto in my post. Though because of Toronto being the corporate & media capital of Canada, it is likely that a Toronto-based MLS team would garner more coverage across the country than one in Montreal or Vancouver, but even if it was just the latter two I suspect there would be more media coverage nationally than a CSL-league would get

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

quote:Originally posted by strobe_z

The whole idea of 3 teams in the MLS reminds me of the whole Celtic/Rangers attempt to jump to the EPL from the SPL. They whined "we're being held back from competing in Europe because of the poor quality of the league we're in" so they wanted in to the EPL. I couldn't help thinking... well instead of being jackasses and jumping to a foreign league.. why they hell don't they invest a little back into the SPL and improve the league as a whole. HAHA.. yeah right.

Unfortunately, the bottom line of what Dundee United and Killie does not positively aid the Old Firm's bottom line. Perhaps if all of these clubs were operating on a community-based structure, then it becomes a 'national community', trying to help out your neighbour.

Because soccer is a business to the board, and a community reflection to its supporters, there is this delusional idea that well-organized grassroots soccer will just spring up out the good of someone's heart and fat wallet.

Hell, Scottish soccer is a perfect example of what goes wrong. 20 years ago, Scotland was part of the top class of world football. All clubs were turning out incredible youth and grooming them for top flight play. The last 10 years, both Celtic and Rangers deemed it necessary to win NOW and not in three years. The result is you have a 4-milling quid transfer for the random north African midfielder flop and a 6-million for the unknown marauding striker from south america who potted two on his debut and then disappeared... money that could have gone into development.

Unfortunately, the second tier clubs started to do that as well on a smaller scale, but that was money earmarked for development taken and put into the transfer kitty.

Would 7,000 people show up in Halifax to see their group of CIS grads and U-19 all-stars take on Winnipeg's group of the same talent pool? At $20 a pop? No. At $5 a pop? Perhaps.

I am all for a CSL, but the idea that it will immediately be as good as the MLS or USL is almost laughable. If a new CSL could be on par with the CPSL (to start), then it is feasible. I'd rather see a healthy amateur league survive 20 years than a fully-pro one survive 5 seasons.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by strobe_z

Because no one asked for it, I've taken it upon myself to take a poll on this subject. Apologies in advance if I've mis-represented anyone.

Pro-CSL

-------

LT (Woodbridge, ON)

Free Kick (North York, ON)

Luis Rancagua (Toronto, ON)

Winnipeg Fury (Winnipeg, MB)

BHTC Mike (Burlington, ON)

DoyleG (Edmonton, AB)

mrpopulistfutebol (location unknown)

Gordon (Saskatoon, SK)

LMW (location unknown)

strobe_Z (Edmonton, AB)

Pro-MLS

---------

Passive Observer (location unknown)

Richard (Vancouver, BC)

Grizzly (location unknown)

An Observer (London, UK)

RealGooner (Toronto, ON)

Elias (Hamilton, ON)

Gian-Luca (Toronton, ON)

...

Me? pro CSL? Your kidding right?

Also, I would advise re-reading LT's article because ( unless I am mistaken) I didn't see anything to suggest that he is pro CSL. I seem to recall an acknowledgement from LT that such a concept could never work from a business model standpoint. That why I agreed entirely with his article.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

If you are talking about the KPMG study, it was such a joke that the CSA refused to pay for it.

They paid for what they got but the findings presented in the preliminary report illustrated very clearly that the CSA's minimum requirements for a domestic league did not exist at the time so no further study was deemed necessary. The CSA thus very sensibly saved some of our money by not proceeding further with the study. Don't let your obvious passionate if misguided hatred of anybody and everything to do with the CSA interfere too much with your thinking.

[Richard]

Any Canadian domestic soccer league will be 'second division' relative to MLS, by default if nothing else. To support my argument, many American players who don't make it into the NFL try for a spot in the CFL, but immediately an NFL job opening appears off they go back to the NFL because that's the real big time. The NFL has even paid money to the CFL which it uses rather like a farm league for its own players. CFL is thus by default a second division league relative to the NFL and always will be. Exactly the same situation would pertain with a CSL2 and the MLS, probably worse because soccer is a much lower profile professional sport in Canada than CFL football.

This reality may be painful for many nationalistic Canadians who dream of a world class pro league in Canada but it remains reality. With my patriotic hat on I would love to see a thriving domestic Canadian pro league that attracts most of our MNT players back from where they are now plying their trade in foreign lands and provides scintillating opportunities for other promising Canadian players and fans. My common sense, pragmatic self says get real, it ain't ever going to be that way, at least in my lifetime.

So, the next best thing for Canadian soccer is to support the already continental USL and encourage the MLS to go continental as well and include Canada. It is the most viable and most practical option for for Canadian pro soccer for the foreseeable future.

[strobe_z]

crap... that's what I get for cutting and pasting my list....

Free Kick was just at the top of the list, so I ended up missing moving him to the "Anti" list. Sorry for the confusion. However, I do think that just strengthens my overall "Big Market vs. Little Market" argument.

As for Gian-Luca's comments, you said "I'd be very surprised if people across the country weren't more interested in one MLS team than in 10 "CSL" teams". Sorry but I read that as being a comment on what "people" would be interested in rather than what the Canadian sports media thinks we should be interested in.

I'm not debating that ESPN.. sorry.. TSN would rather cover the MLS than any damn "canadian content crap" that's forced on them... if indeed they bothered to cover one of those crazy euro-sports at all. And despite not actually mentioning Toronto in your post, I think it's pretty clear that Toronto is the safest bet for a single MLS team.. with Vancouver and Montreal as the only potential growth options.

It just irks me that I'm constantly being told that I should somehow think that chering for a Toronto team is the "canadian thing to do". Doesn't work for me with the Blue Jays or the Raptors... and I don't even like those sports all that much.

For me.. MLS in toronto comes down to Canada buying a "quick fix" and selling off our future. Can any one of the pro-MLS crowd try and convince me that we'll eventually have 8-10 teams in a "Canadian Division" in the MLS? How soon do you think the MLS expansion will include Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton etc? I'm not debating that an MLS team is probably more commercially viable than a 10 team CSL. I'm also not debating that any CSL is going to be on par with the MLS any time soon. But so what? That's like saying teams outside the top 20 shouldn't bother playing in the World Cup.

I want a home town team to cheer for in MY pro league.. otherwise what's the point? The only reason people are pro MLS is because they'll already have that, and screw the rest of us.

[strobe_z]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Any Canadian domestic soccer league will be 'second division' relative to MLS, by default if nothing else. To support my argument, many American players who don't make it into the NFL try for a spot in the CFL, but immediately an NFL job opening appears off they go back to the NFL because that's the real big time. The NFL has even paid money to the CFL which it uses rather like a farm league for its own players. CFL is thus by default a second division league relative to the NFL and always will be. Exactly the same situation would pertain with a CSL2 and the MLS, probably worse because soccer is a much lower profile professional sport in Canada than CFL football.

This reality may be painful for many nationalistic Canadians who dream of a world class pro league in Canada but it remains reality. With my patriotic hat on I would love to see a thriving domestic Canadian pro league that attracts most of our MNT players back from where they are now plying their trade in foreign lands and provides scintillating opportunities for other promising Canadian players and fans. My common sense, pragmatic self says get real, it ain't ever going to be that way, at least in my lifetime.

So, the next best thing for Canadian soccer is to support the already continental USL and encourage the MLS to go continental as well and include Canada. It is the most viable and most practical option for for Canadian pro soccer for the foreseeable future.

Uhm.... so what?

Man, I've got news for you... we're not expecting a world class league to drop from the sky here. EVERY league in the world is a feeder league for a bigger one. I really don't understand this idea that unless we're going to be the best, we just shouldn't bother.

Are we gonna go on the list with Serie A, EPL and La Liga? No... and the best Canadian players are STILL going to go to Europe - no question.

Do you think it bothers most CFL fans that the NFL is bigger badder and better? I don't. You think it bothers Belgian fans that the French League is bigger badder and better? I don't.

[Free kick]

What I find interesting about this debate unlike many others that occur on this forum, is the extent to which i find unanimity within the post that hold the viewpoint that I share on this topic. In other discussions that never happens. When I read these three pages, I cannot find anything to dispute in the post of the pro-mls types. In fact, at one point or another over the years I have raised the same points or examples. So that should tell you something, We cant all be idiots or unpatriotic.

I thought that this debate was settled and pretty much ended when two canadian based USL teams disappeared. I have aluded to it several times, but its worth repeating. The circumstances surounding their disappearance and their performance on ( their records)and off the field should (I would think) be the strongest evidence possible that getting the MLS is the the best option now and the CSL is impossible. I don't know how anyone can dispute that. Consider also that in any kind of pro/national league of any kind, cities like Cal and Edm would be natural choices. If it cant work in EDM or Cal then how is it going to work anywhere else. Plus we have 3 USL teams alive and one who is suviving on bare bones.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by strobe_z

Nobody is expecting a world class league to drop from the sky. But by the same token, we don't need another CPSL either.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by strobe_z

As for Gian-Luca's comments, you said "I'd be very surprised if people across the country weren't more interested in one MLS team than in 10 "CSL" teams". Sorry but I read that as being a comment on what "people" would be interested in rather than what the Canadian sports media thinks we should be interested in.

What I am referring to is that I suspect due to the national coverage an MLS team is likely to get, there will be more interest resulting out of more coverage. Same with the team's ability to promote itself, which would be greater than any "CSL" team. If more people know about a team, due to greater promotion & media coverage, its highly likely that more people will be interested in that team.

quote:

It just irks me that I'm constantly being told that I should somehow think that chering for a Toronto team is the "canadian thing to do". Doesn't work for me with the Blue Jays or the Raptors... and I don't even like those sports all that much.

I didn't see anyone here making that claim, but if they are the only Canadian team in a league your interested in, it probably would be the most Canadian thing to do.

quote:

Can any one of the pro-MLS crowd try and convince me that we'll eventually have 8-10 teams in a "Canadian Division" in the MLS?

Can any one in the anti-MLS crowd try to convince any of us that we'll eventually have 8-10 teams in a "Canadian Division" in the USL?

quote:

I'm also not debating that any CSL is going to be on par with the MLS any time soon. But so what? That's like saying teams outside the top 20 shouldn't bother playing in the World Cup.

I want a home town team to cheer for in MY pro league.. otherwise what's the point? The only reason people are pro MLS is because they'll already have that, and screw the rest of us.

A number of people have made the point that an MLS team in Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal doesn't necessarily preclude having teams in a lower division in other Canadian cities, and is indeed what we would ideally want. There could be an MLS team in Toronto and still be a home town team to cheer for in a 2nd division (a lower Canadian league or the current USL set up). If you are saying that a 2nd division pro side isn't good enough for you & you want top-flight in your city, aren't you guilty of the very same thing you are accusing others of?

[Gordon]

We seem to be crossing the bounds from discussion to competing to win a point. I do not think that we should be using the words "impossible" when describing anything, simply because 3-4 years ago we all would have said that private investors building Stadiums in Vancouver and Montreal was "impossible". "Unlikely", or "highly unlikely" make more sense to me, mainly because I live in a province that regularly sees the "impossible" done. Also, I don't understand how anyone who insists that the Lynx's weakish attendance is merely the result of a lousy stadium, lousy ownership and a lousy product can be so insistent that Calgary and Edmonton have "proven" anything when they too experienced the 3 lousies. Their attendance was not that far behind the Lynx. So if you want to argue that the performance of the Lynx is no reflection of support for soccer in Toronto generally, then its probably best, and consistent, to back away from drawing too many inferences from the Storm and Aviators.

Also, I don't think that the use of labels like "anti-MLS" or "Pro-CSL" or any variation of that serves any useful purpose as I think that many of the people supporting MLS would prefer a canadian league if they thought it was viable, and many of us "pro-csl" types could live with multiple MLS teams. I personally straddle the line and my "anti-MLS" stance is much reduced if and when I am convinced it is possible. I am sure that everyone participating are not being truely represented by being labeled as "pro" or "anti" anything. We're all just taking our best stab at what we think works best for Canadian soccer.

Realistically, the relative strength of a Canadian league to the MLS is not a huge factor in my considerations as to preference. Sweden has a nice international record against England despite a big difference in the quality of their league.

Canadian soccer is bigger than simply a better performance by our national team (which I don't think we even achieve with one MLS team). A national pro league will do far more in both the short and the long run than an MLS team, or even 3 frankly. But if we are going to sell out on that possibility - which is the effect of MLS in Toronto - no matter how unlikely it may be, we have to get more for than a single MLS franchise.

[bettermirror]

yes we need a canadian league. no doubt.

however, i believe the major fallacy with canadian soccer is the coaching from ages 5-9. i get these kids at 10 years old and they are completely blank slates. i am spending my time teaching them how to do step-overs and drags, and various ball control techniques, when this should already be second nature - we will never progress if we don't learn how to possess the ball. this comes just like language, at an EARLY age!

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

If you are saying that a 2nd division pro side isn't good enough for you & you want top-flight in your city, aren't you guilty of the very same thing you are accusing others of?

Yeah, I don't understand this argument people are making. Sure a Toronto MLS side would realistically mean no CSL, but it doesn't stop USL teams in other Canadian cities. On one hand people say a Toronto MLS team wouldn't make a difference in their own cities, but then turn around and say it would. Pick a side people.

A CSL would not be any better quality than the USL. And with some sort of Open Cup competition, Canadian MLS teams can play against Canadian USL teams.

I would rather have a half-decent CSL than one MLS team. But how long do you hold on to this fantasy? When people like Kerfoot and Saputo, not to mention the Leafs (their ownership has a combined worth of about $300 Trillion), seriously consider MLS, and never even mention CSL; I think at some point in time, we must let go of fantasies.

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by bettermirror

however, i believe the major fallacy with canadian soccer is the coaching from ages 5-9. i get these kids at 10 years old and they are completely blank slates. i am spending my time teaching them how to do step-overs and drags, and various ball control techniques, when this should already be second nature - we will never progress if we don't learn how to possess the ball. this comes just like language, at an EARLY age!

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert but...

Kids under 12 should only play 5-a-side or 7-a-side on small fields with no scoring, no rules, no record keeping, no coaches, and no parents. One ref just to make sure nothing happens.

2-3 one hour games a week should be good. And hopefully they would enjoy it enough to play their own pick up games as well.

At 13-14, then it can start getting competitive with coaches and tactics and the rest.

[strobe_z]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

Yeah, I don't understand this argument people are making. Sure a Toronto MLS side would realistically mean no CSL, but it doesn't stop USL teams in other Canadian cities. On one hand people say a Toronto MLS team wouldn't make a difference in their own cities, but then turn around and say it would. Pick a side people.

A CSL would not be any better quality than the USL. And with some sort of Open Cup competition, Canadian MLS teams can play against Canadian USL teams.

I would rather have a half-decent CSL than one MLS team. But how long do you hold on to this fantasy? When people like Kerfoot and Saputo, not to mention the Leafs (their ownership has a combined worth of about $300 Trillion), seriously consider MLS, and never even mention CSL; I think at some point in time, we must let go of fantasies.

Ok... well I'm not gonna take Gian-Luca on directly... he always pulls out the secret "lawyer sleeper hold" and knocks me out.

I've got no problem with a USL-quality CSL compared to the MLS... but I do have a problem with the idea that we should just hitch our horses to the USA's train. Without a buy-in from Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver the chances of EVER getting a CSL league are 0%, so even if both leagues go continental we'll still be the poor cousins in the equation.

I guess I should just be happy the americans let us play. I'd bet that one of the only reasons the CFL is still alive is because there's no NFL team in Toronto. Canadian Baseball and Basketball leagues have been tried and failed.. but that's ok... because I can cheer for the Blue Jays or the Raptors... No wait.. I can cheer for the Edmonton Trappers.. they're AAA ball club.. that's a 2nd division just below the MLB. Oh.. wait.. nevermind... The PCL is an american league.. so they got bought and moved to Texas. Oh well, it's ok.. 'cause now we have the CrackerCats.

Hockey rules all.. and we can't even extract ourselves from the Americans in that... but I'm sure the people in Winnipeg are happy with the Moose.. who cares about the Jets.

[Impact supporter]

quote:

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert but...

Kids under 12 should only play 5-a-side or 7-a-side on small fields with no scoring, no rules, no record keeping, no coaches, and no parents. One ref just to make sure nothing happens.

2-3 one hour games a week should be good. And hopefully they would enjoy it enough to play their own pick up games as well.

At 13-14, then it can start getting competitive with coaches and tactics and the rest.

Elias, I have been advocating the same thing to some people in my town.

I think that before we can have any Canadian league we should be looking at the structure of soccer in Canada. We should be getting rid of the bureaucracy such as district associations and getting back to CLUB SOCCER, ie a full club structure, from youth to senior.

Properly done, it should be;

Teams : (should be all under one name)

Youth (U-14, U-16, U-18)

Junior(U-23)

Senior(O-23)

Veterans (O-35)

Could have some adjustments for recreational teams)

Development system :

Mini-soccer : 5 or 7-a-side, no scoring, no rules, etc.

House league : U-14 onwards, can be used for players who just want to play recreational

Adult league : recreational

Development system would come under the control of the team.

Proper facilities :

Clubhouse

fields with proper lighting, well maintained grass,

Bleachers or terraces.

Just a thought.

[RealGooner]

Ok, so if the MLS is such a bad idea, why is it that nobody is advocating that Vancouver Toronto and Montreal withdraw from the USL immediately? They're an American league too!

Answer: just as was pointed out, its usually people living in cities with no chance of landing an MLS team who are Pro-CSL. As long as TO Van and MTL are in the USL, and Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg Ottawa etc have a shot at getting in the USL, then all is well.

A year ago when the Toronto MLS deal was mooted, most Vancouver and Montrealers were dead against the MLS going to TO. Now that they are potentially in MLS' "in" club, they have come around by their own admission and are increasingly pro MLS. Well fine, better late than never. No one likes to be left behind, so I dont expect to convince Albertans and Winnipeggers of the need for MLS. They dont like it, fine thats life. But dont let me catch you guys trying to land USL teams for your towns because that will prove what we already know: that many Canadian soccer fans arent truly concerned about having a CSL, they just want to be where the best available action is. You can criticise TO, Van City and Montreal fans all you want for being pro MLS, but we all know that if Garber came to Alberta (just as an example) and said "Alberta is one of the richest provinces in Canada, we want an MLS team there" you would NOT refuse him!!!!!! LOL

MLS is happening in Canada because the MLS wants it. Think about it, MLS isnt broadcast on basic cable in Canada. If the MLS comes to Canada, TSN will probably pick it up and all of a sudden, MLS is now on basic cable reaching potentially 32 million people that largely arent being reached now. Thats a massive potential source of revenue for a league that needs revenue badly. Putting a team in San Antonio, Seattle or Philadelphia will not have that kind of huge impact my friends. 32 million people, say it again, its a number that makes MLS honchos drool! Yes money talks, Canada matters, MLS wants us more than we want them, and the USSF cant do squat about it.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

Ok, so if the MLS is such a bad idea, why is it that nobody is advocating that Vancouver Toronto and Montreal withdraw from the USL immediately? They're an American league too!

Answer: just as was pointed out, its usually people living in cities with no chance of landing an MLS team who are Pro-CSL. As long as TO Van and MTL are in the USL, and Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg Ottawa etc have a shot at getting in the USL, then all is well.

With respect no one is advocating that we take a step back (abandoning the A-league). If you were around when the CUSL proposal died, there was much vitriol directed at the Canadian A-League teams, esp. TO and Calgary. The USL will go anywhere, they have proven that and nobody thinks we need Vancouver, MTL and TO in the A-League in order to get a team in our town. Finally, with due respect, the notion that jealousy or envy is playing a primary role on anyone's part is, frankly, asinine. If there was any clear advantage, or no possibility of a Canadian League, I think everyone would be on the MLS bandwagon.

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

A year ago when the Toronto MLS deal was mooted, most Vancouver and Montrealers were dead against the MLS going to TO. Now that they are potentially in MLS' "in" club, they have come around by their own admission and are increasingly pro MLS. Well fine, better late than never.

No, most Vancouver and Montreal fans were pointing out that Toronto was more dodgey a choice and that Vancouver and Montreal were better locations. Your statement is pure fiction.

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

No one likes to be left behind, so I dont expect to convince Albertans and Winnipeggers of the need for MLS. They dont like it, fine thats life. But dont let me catch you guys trying to land USL teams for your towns because that will prove what we already know: that many Canadian soccer fans arent truly concerned about having a CSL, they just want to be where the best available action is. You can criticise TO, Van City and Montreal fans all you want for being pro MLS, but we all know that if Garber came to Alberta (just as an example) and said "Alberta is one of the richest provinces in Canada, we want an MLS team there" you would NOT refuse him!!!!!! LOL

You cling to this fiction, but it really doesn't contribute to the debate. Instead of trying to ascribe motives, why don't you try to listen and understand. Reasonable people can disagree reasonably. I don't see this issue the same way that Gian-luca and Freekick (among others) do, but I know them to be intelligent and reasonable posters so I am going to take what they say at face value and not assume that their sole desirte to see MLS in Toronto is so they can see a better soccer game a 12-15 times a year. And truthfully, I don't see any of the western voyageurs buying any kind of a soccer franchise - well maybe stobe-z if he parlays his computer genius into some sort of successful start-up IPO. Our involvement in any USL temas coming to our cities will almost certainly be as ticket and merchandise purchasers [].

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

MLS is happening in Canada because the MLS wants it. Think about it, MLS isnt broadcast on basic cable in Canada. If the MLS comes to Canada, TSN will probably pick it up and all of a sudden, MLS is now on basic cable reaching potentially 32 million people that largely arent being reached now. Thats a massive potential source of revenue for a league that needs revenue badly. Putting a team in San Antonio, Seattle or Philadelphia will not have that kind of huge impact my friends. 32 million people, say it again, its a number that makes MLS honchos drool! Yes money talks, Canada matters, MLS wants us more than we want them, and the USSF cant do squat about it.

I am sorry, while there may be some elements of truth in the business argument to say MLS will come into 3 cities in Canada, the notions that Canada is some sort of huge revenue stream for MLS is absurd. The value of a San Antonio, a Seattle, A Houston and A Philadelphia is that it creates a critical mass that makes a US television contract more likely. They need to be in 18 of the top 25 US television markets far more than they need the peanuts that a TSN contract would bring. Television money makes the sportsworld go around. Seriously gooner, Canada is a drop in the bucket and soccer is a niche sport in Canada just as it is in the US, 32 million, I don't think so...try 100,000 max which would be an exceptional cable television viewership. I really don't think MLS is drooling over this.

What MLS does need is stable viable franchises. That is the only avenue by which Canadian teams are going to get in. Vancouver is an excellent market for Soccer, the best in Canada and one of the top 3 in Canada. They've proven it, unlike Toronto to date. Now perhaps demographics have changed in Tornoto and the franchise will be a smashing success as has been suggested by many eastern posters. But it is still a question mark. More so than, say, Vancouver. But american are also provincial and myopic and struggle to appreciate thing not american. So if MLS can find stable franchises in the US, which is certainly open to debate, then the chances of teams in Vancouver and Montreal are nil.

If the best we can do is 3 MLS, some Scattered A-League and PDL teams, then that is not the worst that can happen and will be a marked improvement over the current situation. But if we end up with 1 MLS, 2 A-League Teams and a few PDL team, then what do we really gain? And is the gain worth giving up all hope of a Canadian league alternative. I don't think so. And I don't think I'll be seeing a CSL team in Saskatoon realisitcally, or even PDL. I don't have a local fan biais in this debate. But I would hate to sell out the possibility of a Canadian League for something as miniscule as a gain as one MLS franchise at a loss of one A-League franchise. It is SFA, frankly.

[youllneverwalkalone]

All this bitching back and forth about which is better -even ignoring the 5000 other threads on the exact same topic- is still redundant. If Joe Q Voyageur wants to watch professional soccer, on aggregate, what does it matter what league he is watching? Some people want to see a higher level in MLS, others want to see Canadian opponents, and either is a legit reasons to buy a ticket.

The offshoot of all these threads is how more professional soccer in this country will improve Canada's lot in life. Is this really true? Why can't we have a decent level "junior" league soccer?

It's Canada, so why not a gratutitous hockey analogy: Last season's 16-21 year old London Knights would easily clean the clock of most top level Swiss or German clubs. Germany and Switzerland have the two highest paying hockey leagues outside the NHL and you can count the elite players they produce on one hand. This Brazilians will make us better argument is bollocks. If that were true England would be a hockey powerhouse by now.

If the PCSL expanded west, and the CPSL expanded east, we could have some decent amateur leagues. To me this is would have much more lasting impact on the fortunes of the MNT. If we one day reach a point where we have 3 MLS clubs and 5 USL clubs, we'd finally have grounds to debate a pro league (as we could in hockey, where we'd still only have 8-10 clubs). Until then, let's get that CSL patch going, try to get some English Championship on our new soccer channel to follow our Canadians, enjoy our new stadiums, and get ready for 2007.