York Stadium Argos OFFICIALLY pull out

[Loud Mouth Soup]

'great'.

Heh heh...

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Ivan

Perkins is correct in saying the people (which includes all of us soccer fans) have been already gored in the building of the current stadium ...........for baseball & football!

So if that is the case, what is the problem with the government putting up money for a soccer stadium?

The problem is that he's a hypocrite. And he doesn't think anybody likes soccer either, which contradicted by his need to spend time to tell the non-existant "soccer people" to shut up in a newspaper headline. The fact that the country stands to make back any money poured into the stadium with the income generated from 2007 tourney that's now in jeopardy, let alone the community need for a stadium, is something that has not entered his thick skull and permeated the dormant organ he keeps inside it which acts as an apology for a brain.

[Bill Ault]

What's missed in all this is that "free" rent may not be enough to get the Argos to change their mind. They are doing their due diligence - it would be silly of them not to investigate the deal offered by Rogers but and it is a big but if free rent includes, no money from parking, no concessions, etc. In the long term the York Stadium still may be the best answer for the Argos. Free rent or not the Pie in the Sky Dome is still an awful place to watch football. I would think the Argos owners have looked at the revivial of football in Montreal in a smaller stadium and saw a chance to make it happen in Toronto - U of T would have been their first choice but York still might be a better option than the Sky Dome in the long term and I think they are smart enough to figure that out.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Bill Ault

What's missed in all this is that "free" rent may not be enough to get the Argos to change their mind. They are doing their due diligence - it would be silly of them not to investigate the deal offered by Rogers but and it is a big but if free rent includes, no money from parking, no concessions, etc. In the long term the York Stadium still may be the best answer for the Argos.

We haven't missed that - I pointed out a couple pages back that Cam Cole of the National Post has already suggested the same thing, and in fact he doesn't think the Argos will move (or rather, stay at the dome) for the same reason you mention.

Even if the Argos change their minds though, you'd have to think that York & the CSA would be wary of trusting their business partners ever again (until the Argos change owners).

[Alex]

quote:Originally posted by FC Beast

the Canadian Failure League is not helping the sport of soccer in

this country so you sir are full of S**T. The Argos are a chicken S**T

organization who are only looking for cheap rent to display there

mediocre product. The stadium is lost and so is Canada chances of

Hosting this tournament. Put that in you PIPE...and stuff up your......[8]

Your hilarious!! Again I would like to say that the poop is leaking out of your ears. All Im trying to get across is that the CFL has no reason to support soccer, and I havent seen the league itself denounce or give the sport of soccer a bad rap. I believe the league has helped soccer because it has provided us with stadiums!! So Mr. Beast, take your American ways elsewhere.

[FC Beast]

quote:Originally posted by Alex

Your hilarious!! Again I would like to say that the poop is leaking out of your ears. All Im trying to get across is that the CFL has no reason to support soccer, and I havent seen the league itself denounce or give the sport of soccer a bad rap. I believe the league has helped soccer because it has provided us with stadiums!! So Mr. Beast, take your American ways elsewhere.

Yep the Argo's bailing on the Stadium project really has helped,

Canadian soccer. Just because someone is anti CFL which im proud

to be by the way , is not anti Canadian, just someone who knows,

the CFL to put it simple ......sucks. I never said the CFL had

to help soccer, just that they don't go pan handling to the

federal and provincial governments every time they go near

bankruptcy.

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I am wonder the same thing..

I explained it two months ago in the "Forum Help and Suggestions" section:

http://www.thevoyageurs.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5986

Comments like "I think he should be banned" are useless. We're past that. Now we need to know that you understand and accept the consequences of what it will take to ban him. As these consequences are significant, we'll probably then need a vote.

And even then, we'll need to find extra time/help to implement what is necessary. I already spend more time on here doing admin stuff than soccer stuff. [|)]

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Bill Ault

What's missed in all this is that "free" rent may not be enough to get the Argos to change their mind. They are doing their due diligence - it would be silly of them not to investigate the deal offered by Rogers but and it is a big but if free rent includes, no money from parking, no concessions, etc. In the long term the York Stadium still may be the best answer for the Argos. Free rent or not the Pie in the Sky Dome is still an awful place to watch football. I would think the Argos owners have looked at the revivial of football in Montreal in a smaller stadium and saw a chance to make it happen in Toronto - U of T would have been their first choice but York still might be a better option than the Sky Dome in the long term and I think they are smart enough to figure that out.

Eh Bill, great to have you back. I'm glad to see that Canada's first soccer site is still up and running after all these years.

[Free kick]

Unlike Perkins, this piece from the Toronto Sun written by Ken Fidlin is written by someone who ( from pasts articles I'v read) understands the game and has covered some of the recent World Cup. While I don't necessarily agreed with him that the U20 project is dead, at least I can repect his viewpoint. He does raise an interesting point ( which I have highlighted ) at the end. Basically stating that if we had someone like Kerfoot or Saputo in TO, things would be less complicated.

_____________________________________________________________________

From : Toronto Sun

New soccer home now a Pipe dream?

There's a hilarious scene in the movie Hanky Panky, circa 1982, where Gilda Radner and Gene Wilder are passengers in a small plane flying over the Grand Canyon when the pilot keels over, deader than Paul Martin's government.

"He's dead!" Radner screams.

"No, he's just sleeping," says Wilder, eerily calm.

"He's dead!" Radner screams again.

"No, no, no," Wilder says, shaking his head, refusing to accept the obvious.

"Just sleeping."

Couldn't help but think of that scene yesterday as we listened to Kevan Pipe, COO of the Canadian Soccer Association, insisting that the York University stadium, a facility upon which Pipe and the CSA have a lot riding, will go forward as planned and on schedule.

Pipe's contention flies in the face of simple math. If the Argonauts, the original catalysts for this project, are pulling out, it will leave the project at least $20 million short of its $70-million initial price-tag.

No matter how deep in denial the CSA might be, the reality is that there is no one out there ready to pick up the slack. Could the stadium be downsized? Perhaps. But, at the end of the day, will York University, as well as the federal and provincial governments, still have the will to go ahead, even on a more modest proposal, without the Argos as the star tenant?

There are many compelling arguments for a soccer stadium of this size, especially in the country's largest city. But those arguments have never translated into hard currency. Soccer always has been forced to pin its expansion hopes on more commercially viable enterprises. Even on this project, so important to the future profile of the sport in the east, soccer's seed money is minimal, restricted to a $500,000 US grant from FIFA.

So much for the notion of a lovely little bandbox of a stadium for those warm CFL and soccer summer evenings. Apparently, when the SkyDome became the Rogers Centre, more than the name changed. Free rent can change your perception of a place in a hurry.

And, once again, soccer likely will take a direct kick in the head. The CSA has been trying for what seems like a generation now to get a toe-hold for major events in Eastern Canada, with a first-class venue.

Pipe is convinced the project will survive. He has to be convinced of that because his organization is on the hook to hold the 2007 FIFA world youth tournament and this stadium is one of the centrepieces of that event.

Indeed, the first telephone call Pipe fielded yesterday morning was from FIFA headquarters in Zurich, Switzerland, word of the potential split in the stadium consortium having spread halfway around the globe overnight. Pipe was able to allay their fears for the moment, but nobody really knows where this project is headed without the Argos on board.

Pipe himself heard of the possibility of the Argos withdrawal from the project only late Thursday evening when he got a phone call from a York University official as he sat in an airplane on the tarmac at Pearson Airport, waiting to return to his home in Ottawa.

Until the Argos make a final statement on the matter, the rest of the partners are in a state of limbo. But the tone of the Argos statements to date would indicate it won't be long before they sever all ties with the York project.

And that will again leave the CSA dangling in the breeze, at the whim of university and government officials whose priorities may have changed. This is where the Golden Rule kicks in: Those who have the gold, make the rules.

Until soccer somehow has the financial wherewithal to stand on its own, the sport always will be a pawn in games controlled by bigger players.

In the movie, Gene Wilder finally overcame his denial, grabbed the plane's controls and wrestled it to the ground.

But this is not a movie. It's real. And so is the likelihood that the stadium deal is about to crash and the CSA will soon be looking for a new home for the beautiful game here in Canada.

[Moosehead]

I doubt that Canada will want to lose the U20 World Cup of Soccer over 20 million dollars. One has to factor in the economic benefits such an event will provide Canada not to mention the extreme negative effects if we lose the tournament. A scaled down stadium version that would be soccer specific with no Agros is probably the better route in any event.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Moosehead

I doubt that Canada will want to lose the U20 World Cup of Soccer over 20 million dollars. One has to factor in the economic benefits such an event will provide Canada not to mention the extreme negative effects if we lose the tournament. A scaled down stadium version that would be soccer specific with no Agros is probably the better route in any event.

HOW ABOUT GRASS AT THE SKYDOME FOR THE U-20. Why base the tournament on a new SSS????

it's simply a gimmick to get a sss.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

HOW ABOUT GRASS AT THE SKYDOME FOR THE U-20. Why base the tournament on a new SSS????

it's simply a gimmick to get a sss.

Did you watch soccer central yesterday? Its not a gimick. A SSS really enhances the fan experience.

Grass at the skydome will be good for a small number of games over a short period of time. From what we saw with Champions world last year it cost $200,000 ( if not more) just to install it for those two games. It made sence $$$ for Celtic and Roma, but will it make sence to for an U20 game involving, say, Morocco and Paraguay?. A typical group stage invloves six games then you might have maybe 2-4 knockout stage games all over 2-3 week period.

[fan]

Excuses are endless but the CSA resposibilities are limited and clear and their record of incompetence factual.

[Daniel]

Ok, getting off the blame game: what can be done with Lamport?

[Cheeta]

Hang on. An essay regarding the CSA contributions.

Okay. As I see it without the CSA there's no way all that goverment money comes to this project. A national stadium and athletic centre for the development of the sport in Canada is long overdue and considering some of the coin which has been spent on athletic centres for this or that sport in this or that location across the country the precident has been more than set.

As I see it this is a marraige of convience were all partys involved are using each other, and know they are being used as well, to of course their own benefits.

To promote the game of soccer in Canada the CSA is using Toronto, like it or not the centre of the Canadian political universe, as is FIFA with their demand for a 25K seater. They're dangling a WYC carrot (no minor event), and a 70 million dollar capital project for Canada's largest city so it's pretty hard for goverment to say no. Especially if you can make the numbers reasonably jive and your supporting one of the major local Universities at the same time to-boot.

Polititions know a lot of other stuff gets forgotten and people get an impression of improving economic conditions when they can see bricks being put to mortor. That's no great political secret. So if polititions are using what can be argued is a reasonably worthy project to try to buy votes than so be it. Sure as **** though, they couldn't pull this off for just the Argos. That sort of goverment money being doled out for a building for a private business, even on school property and as a school possetion would never, ever fly.

So the polititions are using the CSA and soccer development as a red herring. An excuse for getting this done.

The advantages to York are endless. Endless. Couldn't even begin to cover them and probably the biggest winner in this whole sharrade.

Sokolowski and the Argos? There's more to this deal than meets the eye for them. After the write offs and what not which will come with their "donotion" to this project the bite isn't nearly going to be as hard as it first appears. The ability to promote the Argos, as primary tennent, can't be measured. Their times & dates, their concessions, and a building absolutely suited for a football experience with wacks and wacks of parking is just too good to be true.

And lets not forget all that land Mr. Sokolowski owns out York way. Don't underestimate the long term ability of that property to increase in huge values as the are about York develops and expands. The only problem is figuring out if the stadium goes ahead without the Argos and if it dose will it still be of significant enough catalyst to speed up the areas development to his liking.

So not so cut and dry. And no one really knows too much about the Rogers offer yet. Skydome will still be available for the Grey Cup. Same way The Big Owe is and the Al's play out of McGill.

The immediate concears of the CSA raising capital? Don't know. Sure naming rights are up for grabs now. No idea what they'd be worth. And there is allways the ability to borrow you know? Tax the membership if you have to. A per-seat surcharge at stadium events? Not 1st choices if you can get someone else to foot the bill true, but if you have to you have to.

As much as this is a Toronto building it's a national project and the CSA can play it off as such. Work something out with York. Make some sort of athletic centre for the CSA on the university grounds (out of existing facilities and staff). Gives you the advantage of having the moral authority to tax members from sea to sea and not just in Ontario.

With 800K members surly the CSA can raise another million or million and a half every year for the next few years and guarentee to cover (or at least split) the cost overruns at the stadium. Would that keep the Argos on side? Don't know. But it would sure make the CSA a more legit partner in this project.

I'd be very, very carefull that if the stadium should need to be re-tooled to meet a new capital budget that it should be done with an eye for quality future expansion to the origional design or better. This has to be done right to succeed. And if it is that success may be just be surprisingly large.

[imported_n/a1394647443]

Argos owners' defining moment

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/Ulmer/2005/04/24/1010928-sun.html

Are Argonauts owners Howard Sokolowski and David Cynamon in it for the long haul? This week, the two will announce whether they have scuttled their deal to build a new stadium at York University in favour of remaining at the Rogers Centre.

The announcement will also go a long way in revealing how long the duo will hold on to the club.

Sokolowski and Cynamon enjoyed a dandy rookie season and face the prospect of a handsome return on an asset they bought for $2.5 million.

The Argos boast a charismatic coach in Pinball Clemons and an able scouting and management team. And the CFL is enjoying a rebirth in the eyes of sports consumers.

The first truly local owners since Bill Hodgson sold the club in 1981, Sokolowski and Cynamon have managed to transform themselves from proprietors to assets.

Their vision, from importing a new field for the Argos to upgrading virtually every facet of the operation, has reinvigorated a 130-year-old brand.

Even when the proposed stadium was shuttled from the University of Toronto to York, the dynamics remained constant: Position the team in a 25,000-seat stadium.

The Montreal Alouettes' experience proved that with a cozy stadium, the club can create and marshall demand. Favourable side deals and broadcast, parking, apparel and sponsorship revenues would make the Argos, previous losers of more than $3 million a year, profitable.

But a funny thing happened on the way to the future and the unexpected Grey Cup win is only one minor element.

The Argos exceeded any realistic expectations at the gate. Despite a wretched schedule, they put more than 25,000 people into the ball park for half of their nine home dates. Their average of 25,800 was a 100% improvement over the previous year.

The real gains won when a team turns itself into a winner are realized the following year. The Argonauts were able to negotiate a far more favourable schedule for this season. Away from the SkyDome for six consecutive weeks last summer, the longest the club will be away in '05 is three weeks. Four of the club's nine home games will be played on Fridays or Saturdays.

Now, crowds of 30,000 or more seem not only possible, but likely.

The Maple Leafs, meanwhile, announced Maple Leafs Square, a new $350-million retail and condominium development that sharpened the focus of the Air Canada Centre and the neighbouring Rogers Centre as a sports destination. The question for Sokolowski and Cynamon is this: Why build a sports destination from scratch when fans are used to coming to the Rogers Centre.

Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd., is more likely to buy the Argos if they remain where they are.

LOOKS DOUBTFUL

With a federal election coming, the $10 million to be ponied up by Ottawa for the stadium at York now looks doubtful. Sokolowski and Cynamon were going to contribute $20 million toward the stadium, but any cost overruns would come out of their pocket.

Flipping the Argos makes imminent business sense. Now that the Blue Jays and Rogers Communications has pitched a deal that would dramatically improve the revenue picture, Sokolowski and Cynamon have been furnished a defining moment.

They cannot fill the Rogers Centre. By staying, they sentence their core supporters to an indefinite stay in an oversized, cold, albeit recently renovated stadium.

A new building has always been central to their vision. If Sokolowski and Cynamon walk away from it, they start the clock on the wait between enlightened purchase and profitable retreat.

[fctoronto]

As a big soccer fan, who does not miss over 4-5 games a weekend to watch on TV, and who loves the game of soccer I will first buy a season ticket if MLS comes to town as will at least my 20 soccer fanatics.

I would not like the Argos to play on the same stadium and everybody that loves the game would not like to watch the game on stadium with 100 drifferent lines that are used for football.

If you look at the games played in USA stadiums where you have tons of lanes on field, compared to euro stadiums build only for soccer its realy stupid to play on such field and for us to watch Euro born fans.

Toronto community has more soccer fans than whole USA and believe me, if they build the stadium 15000, 20000, 30000 seats, it will be for every MLS game full. Just look how many Italians, Portugeese, English, Serbian, Croatian, Irish, basically whole euro fans are in GTA, stadium will be filled if there is a competitive league. Just look when there are qualifying or even tournament games, euro, world cup, what happes on the streets of GTA. There will be no shortages of fans on the stadium if MLS comes to town.

But as you can see from some newspapers and what is happening with the sports in Canada. Other sports are scared now, especially Baseball that MSL comming to town will take away the fans from Sky Dome. Saying that city should not spend taxpayers money on stadium, well they can take my tax money I gave the city and spend all of it on soccer stadium and not on some Baseball or Football one, but I can;t choose what they would do, as would at least 25000 other fans who would enjoy to watch the game on new stadium.

I wish that they would make that stadium and we can watch quality and competitive soccer games in GTA. They at least owe that to Soccer Fans in this city.

Lets take the protest in support of the new stadium and future for Toronto Soccer. Just say the time and place and I'll be there.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by fctoronto

As a big soccer fan, who does not miss over 4-5 games a weekend to watch on TV, and who loves the game of soccer I will first buy a season ticket if MLS comes to town as will at least my 20 soccer fanatics.

I would not like the Argos to play on the same stadium and everybody that loves the game would not like to watch the game on stadium with 100 drifferent lines that are used for football.

If you look at the games played in USA stadiums where you have tons of lanes on field, compared to euro stadiums build only for soccer its realy stupid to play on such field and for us to watch Euro born fans.

Toronto community has more soccer fans than whole USA and believe me, if they build the stadium 15000, 20000, 30000 seats, it will be for every MLS game full. Just look how many Italians, Portugeese, English, Serbian, Croatian, Irish, basically whole euro fans are in GTA, stadium will be filled if there is a competitive league. Just look when there are qualifying or even tournament games, euro, world cup, what happes on the streets of GTA. There will be no shortages of fans on the stadium if MLS comes to town.

But as you can see from some newspapers and what is happening with the sports in Canada. Other sports are scared now, especially Baseball that MSL comming to town will take away the fans from Sky Dome. Saying that city should not spend taxpayers money on stadium, well they can take my tax money I gave the city and spend all of it on soccer stadium and not on some Baseball or Football one, but I can;t choose what they would do, as would at least 25000 other fans who would enjoy to watch the game on new stadium.

I wish that they would make that stadium and we can watch quality and competitive soccer games in GTA. They at least owe that to Soccer Fans in this city.

Lets take the protest in support of the new stadium and future for Toronto Soccer. Just say the time and place and I'll be there.

Sorry to be snarky, but you need to do a little homework. Didn't you know that MLS draws on average 40,000 people per game because the huge Latino population instantly embraced the league because they love soccer? [}]

[canso]

Unfortunate timing with SoccerCentral on Saturday, they just closed the segment where they talk about needing $20mil now to build the stadium if the Ar(You Going to)Go's do go and then comes Craig Forrest asking us to give money to the CSA charity to "Help the Children."

Call me cynical, but I was just picturing Kevan Pipe cackling in the background. "Give me money, yes, lot's of money.!"

[fctoronto]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

Sorry ti be snarky, but you need to do a little homework. Didn't you know that MLS draws on average 40,000 people per game because the huge Latino population instantly embraced the league because they love soccer? [}]

I did not list every nation because it would take a long time, but my point was MLS team in Toronto will not have to worry about shortages of people on stadium.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by fctoronto

I did not list every nation because it would take a long time, but my point was MLS team in Toronto will not have to worry about shortages of people on stadium.

And Daniel's point was that US cities with huge latino (and other immigrant) populations draw only 13-20 thousands fans so your project of Toronto sellouts is a dubious proposition at best.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

Not sure that I understood the full sentiment that you are expressing in your post. I agree that a great number of people who have been culturally introduced to the game will not embrace the local product regardless of the quality. But I beleive that you cannot say that about everyone withing the ethinic cultures of TO and that you only need to convert a small fraction of these types to the local product in order to make it successfull. I think that it is achievable and I see the same thing in the US with the MLS.

I don't not believe ( as some have suggested here before) that the growth of the game rests with the other segment. Namely, those who have little parental or ancestral links to soccer cultures. You are not going to pull them away from the NHL, MLB, and CFL and you are more likely to find the Dave Perkin's and Bob McCowns of the world amongst these groups. Those who don't take those extreme views are more likely to prefer an U19 girls international match to a senior mens WCQ. Just look at turnouts in Edmonton A-league soccer and for the mens WCQ versus U19 girls tournament. I do not believe that there is a future for the pro game by targeting this market segment. Along the same lines, this is why I believe that it best to work to improve the product and calibre amongst the existing pro soccer markets rather than look to grow the game beyond those markets.

[Gian-Luca]

I think there will be some growth in the "joe public" market who didn't not grow up with the ball on their foot, just like you will get some of the soccer snobs -not all of them but some. There are all sorts of types in this group - the McCowns and Perkins of the world are one extreme, but I think we'd be selling the game of soccer a bit short if we firmly believe that its incapable of interesting and "converting" anyone who didn't grow up with it in their heritage - if you present a professional product there will be some people who didn't grow up with the game that will get into it once they give it a chance. There will be others who have an anti-soccer bias as well, but the population of the GTA is so big that there should be enough to justify a 20-25,000 seater once you add in the people from the traditional soccer backgrounds, and the youth soccer crowd which will come out to the games if you target them (the NASL Blizzard did so all the time).

And I do think there has to be a reason for the likes of Dave Perkins & Bob McCown to be so against a soccer stadium being built in Toronto that they resort to treating soccer fans & professionals with contempt even before the said soccer people have even uttered a word. Its not hard to believe that they would be worried about the prospect of pro soccer returning to Toronto (which is what the MLS would be in the eyse of most Torontonians).

[Free kick]

As always, when we have these kind of discussion, its important to point out that we are making generalities based on our own experiences. Nothing is ever black and white. If you cast a net out into the ocean, you are not going to catch only one type of fish, but its important know what type of fish you are looking for and where and how to find it and how much money the ordeal will earn for you. Therefore I agree that you must never sell short Joe public. But if you were to divise a simple theme around a marketing strategy or better yet, what kind of marketing channel would you favour? would you create one that that will catch the attention of the suburban soccer mom or the first generation, post secondary educated, canadian families who moved the newer burbs and have plenty of disposable income. I think TO has a very large untapped market of of the latter group. Furthermore, you won't have to teach the game to this folks. Its these folks, whom you could argue, are the people that McCowan and Perkins are worried about. I have noticed for my experience that this segment (unlike for hockey and football) has never really caught on to Baseball.

My problem with the second group ( soccer mom etc) is that, with applogises to anyone reading this from edmonton, is that you would be building a fan base off of a weak foundation IMO. My observations from a distance of what has happened in Edm with soccer in that town would serve as the best example of my point. How in the world is it possible to draw 60K to watch teen aged girls play at level comparable to 12 boys while at the same time lose a pro team after only one year and see only 8K turn out for a seniors mens WCQ? That just defies logic. Clearly, the edm group targeted the wrong people. Or, edm doesn't have enough people in teh group that I was alluding to earlier.

[Daniel]

The Impact pretty much caters only to "soccer families" and a lot not from Montreal. However, the credibility that the club has attained has brought in more young adult and traditional soccer fans.