York Stadium Argos OFFICIALLY pull out

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

It should have been awarded to Edmonton, they have a 50,000 seat stadium, but Kevan is obviously still holding out hope that a yet to be built, downsized Toronto venue can host the crown jewel game of this tournament.

My gawd, the amount of crap in this thread alone is absolutely staggering.

Robert, take a step back a look objectively at things for once and you'll understand some of the decisions being made. Of course the CSA is still holding out hope to hold the final in Toronto and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why. No disrespect to the soccer fans in Edmonton, but a final that doesn't include Canada (which is fairly likely) will probably draw more in Toronto than in Edmonton. Yes, Edmonton has a 60K seat stadium, but if only 10K show up, what good is that when it's possible you could get 15K in Toronto?

The CSA is working on a break even budget. Anywhere they can get more people in the seats the better. If Canada makes it to the finals then it Edmonton would be the ideal finals site, but they gotta play the odds when they decide these things ahead of time.

Everyone here knows you don't like the CSA or Pipe, but seriously, try a little objectivity and your rantings will seem less childish and uninformed.

[canadiansoccerrules]

the sad facts are these....the stadium in Toronto will not be built, now

or anytime soon. The taxpayers don't want to pay for another white elephant

like skydome or the olympic stadium in Montreal, jsut to sit empty for most of the year. The U-2o championship was a good try but lets try again in the future when we get the CSA and soccer in this country in general sorted

out.

[Massive Attack]

Elias, York U. already has a full sized, indoor track and field facility. They don't need an outdoor running track to go with it.

At a time when a bunch of Canadian universities are building or planning to build soccer/football stadiums, York U. would be stupid to let this project die when there is $35 mil in government funds available to help them get their own.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

My gawd, the amount of crap in this thread alone is absolutely staggering.

Robert, take a step back a look objectively at things for once and you'll understand some of the decisions being made. Of course the CSA is still holding out hope to hold the final in Toronto and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why. No disrespect to the soccer fans in Edmonton, but a final that doesn't include Canada (which is fairly likely) will probably draw more in Toronto than in Edmonton. Yes, Edmonton has a 60K seat stadium, but if only 10K show up, what good is that when it's possible you could get 15K in Toronto?

The CSA is working on a break even budget. Anywhere they can get more people in the seats the better. If Canada makes it to the finals then it Edmonton would be the ideal finals site, but they gotta play the odds when they decide these things ahead of time.

Everyone here knows you don't like the CSA or Pipe, but seriously, try a little objectivity and your rantings will seem less childish and uninformed.

At all previous World Cups (youth and senior) that I can recall, the host Association has always announced where the final match would be played. According to your point of view, the final should be awarded to Toronto, because you reason Toronto has a better potential to draw more paying customers. I'm not arguing that point. You could be right. But if so, then why not go ahead and announce that the final will be played in Toronto. What I'm saying is, that the CSA's failure to do so could be interpreted as the CSA not being fully confident at this stage that a stadium in Toronto will be ready to host such an important event. How long will they wait before they make an announcement? They could have said, on September 1, 2005, the CSA will announce where the final will be played. All I ask for is the same full disclosure that other hosting countries have provided. I would like to attend the final regardless if Canada is in it. A vacation to Toronto for a World Cup final is not something I, or soccerfans from around the world, can plan on a few months notice. This Mickey Mouse handling of a FIFA World Championship is embarrassing, and will probably result in the loss of thousands of international soccer fans coming to Canada. So I hope your right about Torontonians filling up the stadium.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

Canada has played at the Dome.

Irrelevant to the point I'm making. In 1984/85 there were two large stadiums regularly being used for top-flight international soccer in Toronto. There would be no need for the CSA to devote nearly 25% of its budget every year for a long-term goal to build a stadium they would need in 2007, because there was not way that anyone could have foreseen at that time that a stadium would be needed in the year 2007, and no reason for people to worry about what disasters might be happening 23 years into the future.

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

And how is it 100% the CSA's fault that there are nimby's down at U of T and that the Argos are backstabbing twonks?

That doesn't answer the question - how is it their fault that U of T & the Argos went back on their word? If I'm interested in building a house and two of my friends come along and say they are interested in helping out because they want to live there too, and they claim they need a place to live, if they go back on their word on their own volition, how would that be 100% my fault?

U of T, the Argo's & York have all indicated an interest in building a new stadium for their needs, whether you think they actually need a new stadium or not is magnificently, 100% irrelevant to this fact that they themselves have had the interest and the intention to do so. It would have been criminally negligent of the CSA not to explore partnerships with these organizations, particularly since they, unlike the CSA, actually have money. I very much doubt the CSA would have been granted $35 million by the respective governments for a new stadium as $35 million is not enough to build a stadium with the capacity needed for either the major matches of the WYC - perhaps even more worryingly, not enough for an MLS team (in fact I'm already worried that 20,000 seater built for the $50 million might not be enough for MLSE to invest). Getting into the MLS is a stated goal for the CSA, as it should be - if you disagree that this is the route to take, we can end this discussion right now because I'm not bothering to waste my time going through the 5 billion or so reasons why it is a good & vital move to get into that league for the future of Canadian soccer. Building cheap temporary facilities with the cash and leaving no legacy is something we shouldn't be interested in, and neither should the government. Centennial is a crappy location to build anything and Lamport can't be upgraded to a sufficient level either.

[RealGooner]

Great points Gian-Luca!

[Gordon]

The CSA is not a funder of the stadium construction and the decision ultimately are out of their hands. You find likely business partners and proceed in good faith.

So, for Elias, its hardly the CSA fault that either the U of T or the Argos pulled out unless you can find more secure partners for the CSA. Both were logical partners who ultimately decided to bail. Fortunately, they bailed in the right order, because if the U of T got cold feet after the Argos, the chances of getting anything done in time would have ben diminshed. The only other option for the CSA would be to stay out of it entirely. Given that the cash the government is ponying up contingent on the U-20 World Cup, the involvement of the CSA has brought 50-70% of the cash going into construction.

For Robert, given that the CSA does not have the ultimate control over the construction of the Stadium, to announce the final for Toronto would be absurd if York were to pull out...and you would be the first on here calling for Pipe's head for such a foolish mistake. So Kudo's to the CSA for keeping the one piece of leverage that they do have. It ain't a lot, but at least they haven't given it away cheaply.

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

At all previous World Cups (youth and senior) that I can recall, the host Association has always announced where the final match would be played. According to your point of view, the final should be awarded to Toronto, because you reason Toronto has a better potential to draw more paying customers. I'm not arguing that point. You could be right. But if so, then why not go ahead and announce that the final will be played in Toronto. What I'm saying is, that the CSA's failure to do so could be interpreted as the CSA not being fully confident at this stage that a stadium in Toronto will be ready to host such an important event. How long will they wait before they make an announcement? They could have said, on September 1, 2005, the CSA will announce where the final will be played. All I ask for is the same full disclosure that other hosting countries have provided. I would like to attend the final regardless if Canada is in it. A vacation to Toronto for a World Cup final is not something I, or soccerfans from around the world, can plan on a few months notice. This Mickey Mouse handling of a FIFA World Championship is embarrassing, and will probably result in the loss of thousands of international soccer fans coming to Canada. So I hope your right about Torontonians filling up the stadium.

Well, in your haste to denigrate the CSA for their efforts, I think you've failed to remember that the WYC is 2 years away</u>. There has also been numerous indications from the CSA or otherwise that the drop dead point for the Toronto stadium is this October. Work has to begin then for it to be ready. Therefore, by October, at the very latest, the CSA will know the what shape a Toronto stadium will take. They then can make an announcement. So, that gives travellers at the very least 1.5 years to make arrangements.

Also, for most soccer fans, if they want to catch the WYC at any time they generally have to make plans a few months ahead of time as there are qualifications. Case in point, the Voyageurs that had to wait until Canada qualified before booking a trip to the Netherlands.

Oy vey. At least I got to 200 posts.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

Well, in your haste to denigrate the CSA for their efforts, I think you've failed to remember that the WYC is 2 years away</u>. There has also been numerous indications from the CSA or otherwise that the drop dead point for the Toronto stadium is this October. Work has to begin then for it to be ready. Therefore, by October, at the very latest, the CSA will know the what shape a Toronto stadium will take. They then can make an announcement. So, that gives travellers at the very least 1.5 years to make arrangements.

Also, for most soccer fans, if they want to catch the WYC at any time they generally have to make plans a few months ahead of time as there are qualifications. Case in point, the Voyageurs that had to wait until Canada qualified before booking a trip to the Netherlands.

Oy vey. At least I got to 200 posts.

Thank God that plan B, Edmonton, would take less planning from my point of view, being I live in Vancouver. Also the chances of getting a ticket for a venue that can accommodate 50,000 plus improves compared to a 20,000 seat facility. However, hopefully with the support of the CSA, Toronto will be able to join the other great Canadian cities which have already hosted Olympic, World Cup and Commonwealth games.

[Richard]

What a breath of fresh air, some rational posts pertaining to the CSA at last. I was beginning to think I was a lone voice in a very large wilderness!

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

What a breath of fresh air, some rational posts pertaining to the CSA at last. I was beginning to think I was a lone voice in a very large wilderness!

We've been around for a while, its just that we don't always have the energy to continually point out where criticism of the CSA is unfair and where its valid (and there's enough of the latter as it is). As Tail Gunner Joe alluded to, some of the mega-hating anti-CSA bashers have for a long time been almost hyperactively relentless in their campaign to bash the CSA for everthing, including those things they have little or no control over (while at the same time letting them off the hook for the things they could do better), and its difficult summoning up the energy to point out why such and such criticisms are ridiculous over a long period.

That's not to say that everyone who criticizes the CSA falls under the above category or that the CSA isn't in places deserving of criticism. I don't want to lump in people who provide reasoned critiques of what the CSA is doing with the same group of people that have proposed that we petition the Government to reduce the CSA budget substantially until they start to produce better results on the field (and no, I'm not joking, somebody actually proposed this a few months back).

[fan]

" people that have proposed that we petition the Government to reduce the CSA budget substantially until they start to produce better results on the field (and no, I'm not joking, somebody actually proposed this a few months back)."

An excellent proposal and the CSA has turned soccer in Canada into a joke. You do realise you dont receive credit for failure?

The reason you see a lot of negative passionate posts here against the CSA is because they are succesive failures. Thats why you dont see lots of posts praising the CSA its a self evident representation of the incompetence of the CSA.

[Marc]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

We've been around for a while, its just that we don't always have the energy to continually point out where criticism of the CSA is unfair and where its valid (and there's enough of the latter as it is). As Tail Gunner Joe alluded to, some of the mega-hating anti-CSA bashers have for a long time been almost hyperactively relentless in their campaign to bash the CSA for everthing, including those things they have little or no control over (while at the same time letting them off the hook for the things they could do better), and its difficult summoning up the energy to point out why such and such criticisms are ridiculous over a long period.

That's not to say that everyone who criticizes the CSA falls under the above category or that the CSA isn't in places deserving of criticism. I don't want to lump in people who provide reasoned critiques of what the CSA is doing with the same group of people that have proposed that we petition the Government to reduce the CSA budget substantially until they start to produce better results on the field (and no, I'm not joking, somebody actually proposed this a few months back).

Well said. I'm surprised that you responded, given your lengthy history with the subject (good posts, by the way.)

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by fan

" people that have proposed that we petition the Government to reduce the CSA budget substantially until they start to produce better results on the field (and no, I'm not joking, somebody actually proposed this a few months back)."

An excellent proposal and the CSA has turned soccer in Canada into a joke. You do realise you dont receive credit for failure?

Yes, an excellent proposal, historically speaking right up there with Baldrick's plan to cure his mother's common cold by cutting off her head.

quote:

The reason you see a lot of negative passionate posts here against the CSA is because they are succesive failures. Thats why you dont see lots of posts praising the CSA its a self evident representation of the incompetence of the CSA.

What I often see aren't passionate posts, but ridiculous ones, which say more about the people who make them than they do about the CSA.

[Elias]

WOW!!!! I can't believe what I'm reading. I can't believe the CSA is going to come out of this looking like wounded victims, instead of the incompetent fools they are.

I don't even know where to begin. So I'll start by trying to be funny. GL aren't you a lawyer? What do you mean by "friends"? []

I'm a dishwasher. It's my job to wash the dishes. One day the cook came over and said he will help me wash the dishes if I get the owner to purchase him a new frying pan. So I went to the owner and slept with him, and the owner purchased a new frying pan. The cook never helped me wash the dishes. He intended to wash the dishes, but decided the dishes he has are good enough for the next 15 years. You can call the cook a backstabbing twonk liar and whatever else, but if the dishes are not washed, it is 100% my fault. It is my job to wash the dishes. It is my responsibility to wash the dishes. I should have had an iron-clad written agreement before I went to the owner and made a fool of myself.

I remember some UofT chick being interviewed on Soccer Central during the UofT stadium announcement saying, and I paraphrase, "it's not a done deal, 50 (yes 50) different committees need to go back and look at this and then the board needs to approve it" and some such bs. This was moments after the CSA, Argos, the politicians announced the new UofT stadium. The only official UofT reps were the Athletic Dept., which obviously have as much power as the CSA.

UofT had announced from 2000 that they wanted to build a 5 000 seat stadium.

UofT NEVER had any intention of building a 25 000 seat stadium. NEVER. I want to see one signed agreement stating otherwise.

The Argos obviously had an easy way out of this deal, otherwise there should be lawsuits flying left and right.

And York still has not said this is a go, after the Argos pulled out.

As for other options: my point is when you can barely afford a shack, you can't go looking at the Taj Mahal. I didn't say they should build a temporary facility or anything. Since they can't find an MLS owner (the Leafs will right after they win the Stanley Cup), build something with maybe 10 000 permanent seats that can be expanded for the WYC or MLS later on. The point is after the 7-8 games for that 1 month. Let me repeat that. The point is after the 7-8 games for that 1 month. So for example, if it was built at the OSA's Soccer Center just north of Toronto, I believe 2 CPSL teams play there already, so get the Lynx on board, plus have youth games every week, etc. so the place gets used, and at least breaks even.

And lastly, what did the CSA bring to the table? If the gov't money was for the WYC, the CSA should have been calling the shots. Not the universities, not the Argos, not nobody else. If the Argos were serious about this, they should have been forced to sign an agreement and put the money down upfront. But they weren't even straight investing it, they were going to donate it to York and York was going to turn around and put the money into the stadium. I think they call this Enron Accounting Principles.

The only positive is that the CSA still has 3-4 months to get something done.

And give me one reason the people at the CSA still have their jobs. Just 1. Why? What have they accomplished? Just one thing. What? Um, a national league, a national cup, a national stadium, qualifing for the world cup, what? What? Just one thing that they would have kept their jobs had this been a private company. Just one. (And two complete flukes - the Gold Cup and the girls in Edmonton don't count).

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

What a breath of fresh air, some rational posts pertaining to the CSA at last. I was beginning to think I was a lone voice in a very large wilderness!

Your numbers are small, and shrinking with each passing day. The CSA is nothing to be proud of. It baffles me to hear that there is even the smallest of minorities that believe the current state of Canadian soccer is acceptable. But what can you expect from minds that have 5 billion reasons to continue being in denial. Keep slapping eachother on the back, saying how this Murphy's Law Association keeps getting screwed by everyone but themselves. Pathetic!

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

WOW!!!! I can't believe what I'm reading. I can't believe the CSA is going to come out of this looking like wounded victims, instead of the incompetent fools they are.

Sorry, but that's the general perception. Not just on this board, but iin all of the papers by the hypocritical "it's ok if the gov't funds a baseball stadium because I like baseball but not ok if the gov't funds a soccer stadium because I don't like soccer and I think that's fair" ramblings of Dave Perkins, and in the general public around Toronto. Even the Argos owners have admitted they will probably look bad as result of this decision. Outside of the tiny mind of Dave Perkins, the only other place that is providing the CSA with any vitriol over this is this board is a few of the alleged "supporters". To no one's surprise.

quote:

I'm a dishwasher. It's my job to wash the dishes. One day the cook came over and said he will help me wash the dishes if I get the owner to purchase him a new frying pan. So I went to the owner and slept with him, and the owner purchased a new frying pan. The cook never helped me wash the dishes. He intended to wash the dishes, but decided the dishes he has are good enough for the next 15 years. You can call the cook a backstabbing twonk liar and whatever else, but if the dishes are not washed, it is 100% my fault. It is my job to wash the dishes. It is my responsibility to wash the dishes. I should have had an iron-clad written agreement before I went to the owner and made a fool of myself.

This analogy doesn't work at all. I used the example of different parties with a mutual interest in building something for their mutual benefit which was the actual case with the stadium. You are talking about the different job reponsibilities of different employees of a business. How is this analogous to the situation at hand?

quote:

As for other options: my point is when you can barely afford a shack, you can't go looking at the Taj Mahal. I didn't say they should build a temporary facility or anything. Since they can't find an MLS owner (the Leafs will right after they win the Stanley Cup), build something with maybe 10 000 permanent seats that can be expanded for the WYC or MLS later on.

What would be the point of 10,000 permanent seats with another 10,000 cheap temporary seats that would also have to stay up permanently for an MLS team to use every year? It makes no sense.

I applaud the CSA for going after a real stadium, instead of the half-assed one that you are suggesting above. L E G A C Y spells legacy. $35 million to build a cheap-ass stadium is not an option, and the government would never be interested in that, and the CSA would never have gotten the money for the stadium if that's what they went to the government for.

quote:

And lastly, what did the CSA bring to the table? If the gov't money was for the WYC, the CSA should have been calling the shots. Not the universities, not the Argos, not nobody else.

You are forgetting the key ingredient to building a stadium - it's called land.

[fan]

Forget it Robert and Elias these odd few guys like Richard and Gian-Luca that are left here are receding and more interested in semantics than results.

Most of these guys have been so emersed in verbal masturbation that they dont care what they really look like anymore just so long as they can continue the verbal nonsense.

Imagine supporting and defending a group of people so incompetent as the CSA and you can see how ridiculous they look.

[Elias]

My main problem with the CSA is they keep announcing half-assed fantasy plans (leagues, cups, stadiums) that are never mind not-concrete, they are not even worth mentioning in fantasy land. I mean, one would have to be on the cheapest crack they can find if they believe an other word the CSA ever says again.

UofT NEVER NEVER NEVER was going to build a 25 000 seat stadium. The Argos were obviously playing everybody like fools. And everybody here is assuming York will build a $50-million 20 000 seat stadium. Once again, York has never said they would do that. It seems like York wants the stadium, but not without the Argos. Who will pay the yearly costs?

There was absolutely no reason the CSA should have announced any stadium plans (once again, the 3rd failed plan) until the first shovel was in the ground. No reason what-so-ever.

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

the only other place that is providing the CSA with any vitriol over this is this board is a few of the alleged "supporters". To no one's surprise.

It's not surprising. Because reporters keep saying "the soccer people". Nevermind 99% of Canadians wouldn't think soccer if you said CSA, I wonder how many know we have a national body who is responsible for soccer in this land. And nobody believes the gov't money was for the WYC.

quote:

What would be the point of 10,000 permanent seats with another 10,000 cheap temporary seats that would also have to stay up permanently for an MLS team to use every year? It makes no sense.

I applaud the CSA for going after a real stadium, instead of the half-assed one that you are suggesting above. L E G A C Y spells legacy. $35 million to build a cheap-ass stadium is not an option, and the government would never be interested in that, and the CSA would never have gotten the money for the stadium if that's what they went to the government for.

The problem is I don't see anybody who was money seriously lining up for an MLS franchise. And when you're homeless, a shack would be a legacy.

As for stadium land, the city was giving the CNE grounds, the OSA owns land at the Soccer Centre, I'm sure there is other city land they were willing to invest in the project (Downsview).

And why can't the CSA raise any money? Get a loan, yeah on the backs of their membership (I know it would never fly - BUT ITS THEIR JOB TO MAKE IT FLY). Get corporate support. Sell a brick to each fan (set-up a non-profit so people get a tax receipt). Sell cookies door to door.

[FC Beast]

Start playing taps for the sport in this country...the dream has died.

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by fan

Forget it Robert and Elias these odd few guys like Richard and Gian-Luca that are left here are receding and more interested in semantics than results.

Most of these guys have been so emersed in verbal masturbation that they dont care what they really look like anymore just so long as they can continue the verbal nonsense.

Imagine supporting and defending a group of people so incompetent as the CSA and you can see how ridiculous they look.

Fan, mi amigo, to be perfectly honest Richard and Gian-Luca are two of the most respected and brightest Voyageurs frequenting this site. I hold both in high esteem and would argue that the silly, poorly argued and unrealistic vitriol that pours from you and a few others marks the consensus of a minority, and a poorly informed one at that. I don't think you want to form alliances with the likes of The Beast and Elricko, who flounce and flail in the childish world of the unreal and make claims and assessment that are often mean-spirited, unfounded, and poorly reasoned. I know you are better than that. I know that your lashing out comes from frustration. I know that if you undertood the context and working realities of making a stadium happen in Toronto (which, if Pipe isn't just blowing smoke outta his ass, IS STILL A REALITY) that you'd think differently about the situation. We are talking about millions of dollars. People behave differently when millions of dollars are at stake. Pretty easy for you to condemn others when you are not putting up a friggin'penny of your own.

Can't we all just drink some beer and make up? [8D]

[fan]

I appreciate your candor The Beaver and you seem to be fairly intelligent so I will respond in kind. I am not overly concerned about who is in support of my posts or not.Either way is fine thats the point of a forum having differing viewpoints.

Alliances ? Not here in any case. On some points I agree with Robert or Richard on others I dont depending on the point.

I have vast experience in every level of soccer and business so I am quite aware of what is true or absolute and what is just opinion.

In this case, the announcement of the stadium from the CSA since its inception at varsity has been filled with statements and proclamations that never came to fruition. Even though I accept some of the responsibility for these failures do fall with the other groups the CSA "partnered with", the CSA is certainly responsible for some of it too. You must do proper research on your "partners" and have signed verifications at each stage of a proposal in order to even announce the proposal publicly never mind to continue with it.

However on this one project the CSA has had the MLG, UofT and the Argos pull out.

They have not clearly apologised or admitted incomptency

to the Canadian soccer public.

That is unacceptable in of itself.

This is ther modus operandi and their standing operating procedure for over 20 years on numerous projects.

However this record of repeated failure and incomptency is ludicrous in the fact the people who run the CSA still remain.

Look I have been witness to most of this disaster for twenty years and a lot of it I have seen first hand.

It is difficult to list all of them here but I can tell you the Canadian soccer public is truly disgusted by the performance of Kevin Pipe and the CSA.

It is pretty simple even the uninformed and young who follow or participate in soccer in Canada have accepted this is a farce.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by The Beaver

Fan, mi amigo, to be perfectly honest Richard and Gian-Luca are two of the most respected and brightest Voyageurs frequenting this site. I hold both in high esteem and would argue that the silly, poorly argued and unrealistic vitriol that pours from you and a few others marks the consensus of a minority, and a poorly informed one at that. I don't think you want to form alliances with the likes of The Beast and Elricko, who flounce and flail in the childish world of the unreal and make claims and assessment that are often mean-spirited, unfounded, and poorly reasoned. I know you are better than that. I know that your lashing out comes from frustration. I know that if you undertood the context and working realities of making a stadium happen in Toronto (which, if Pipe isn't just blowing smoke outta his ass, IS STILL A REALITY) that you'd think differently about the situation. We are talking about millions of dollars. People behave differently when millions of dollars are at stake. Pretty easy for you to condemn others when you are not putting up a friggin'penny of your own.

Can't we all just drink some beer and make up? [8D]

You're right. Let's not try to alter the course of Canadian soccer. Everything is in capable hands I sure. The Canadian standard of play is second to none. It's tough to find a ticket to a match and the media never misses a beat of the action. I just don't know what came over me, picking on the respected and bright folk of the Canadian soccer community. There's something I share with Kevan Pipe though, is the fact that neither one of us has put up a friggin'penny. (No that's not true. I spent $46 a ticket to watch Guatemala, Kevan got in for free, and I spent $46 to watch Costa Rica, and Kevan didn't even bother to show up for that game.) So yeah, you're right. I'm sorry Kevan. Please forgive me and let's drink some beer so we can drown our sorrows. Who need those F-ing Argos, and that F-ing Rogers, and that F-ing University anyways. Cause we got more of the same old breath of fresh airs that Richard and Gian-Luca grace us with. Your right Fan, both are a utter waste of my time.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Your right Fan, both are a utter waste of my time.

An utter waste of your time huh, yet you still continue to respond with more of your corrosive crap, day after day. You'd do more for the Canadian game by spending the time coaching kids soccer or running a club or league than reacting to people who are such a waste of your time.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by fan

They have not clearly apologised or admitted incomptency

to the Canadian soccer public.

That is unacceptable in of itself.

I really did not want to wade into this discussion, but why exactly should the CSA apologize for the Argos pulling out of the stadium deal?