York Stadium Argos OFFICIALLY pull out

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

All of Varsity was standing up until 2002 (??), but most of it was condemned (which explains the T&T 9k sellout).

Actually Daniel, the stadium was never condemned. U of T let the west and south stands seating deteriorate to the point of it becoming unusable. There never was a north stand.

While the facilities in the whole stadium were undeniably primitive, if U of T had put adequate funding into maintaining the facility, they would not be having to build a new one now.

The structure of old Varsity was sound and could have been rehabilitated.

The whole "condemned" thing was written about once or twice and it has become an urban legend.

db

[Guest Ed]

I have little to add to this debate. All I can say is what type of moron goes on national TV and states that there is no Plan B for the WYC2007, when plans A and A prime have already gone south, plans A, B and C for the U17 hosting have gone south, WCQ thinking & planning (remember the CSA's TOP priority under Sharpe) were non-existent?

You've gone to the well a few too many times boys.

[Massive Attack]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

Actually Daniel, the stadium was never condemned. U of T let the west and south stands seating deteriorate to the point of it becoming unusable. There never was a north stand.

While the facilities in the whole stadium were undeniably primitive, if U of T had put adequate funding into maintaining the facility, they would not be having to build a new one now.

The structure of old Varsity was sound and could have been rehabilitated.

The whole "condemned" thing was written about once or twice and it has become an urban legend.

db

To take this one step further, I was under the impression that the concrete base of the stadium was sound. The only thing that was 'condemned' was the wooden seating on the south and east sides. I remember when Reggina came to play their exhibition game, a bunch of contractors offered to fix the seating for free, to allow the sale of more tickets. But this was shot down (either by unions or the U of T, I can't recall wich one it was)

They way that the U of T handled the demise of Varsity really makes me sick every time I think about it. I bet that a pre-2002 Varsity could have been fixed up really nice with less then half the amount of money that the governments are pledging for the York U. stadium. This bugs me to no end. The people who run the U of T have no real vision.

[Whither Canada]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

They way that the U of T handled the demise of Varsity really makes me sick every time I think about it. I bet that a pre-2002 Varsity could have been fixed up really nice with less then half the amount of money that the governments are pledging for the York U. stadium. This bugs me to no end. The people who run the U of T have no real vision.

They clearly had no intention of rehabilitating Varsity. For years the powers that be there have desired new development on the site to generate more dollars than the stadium could provide. That there's 100% Grade-A prime real estate.

We haven't seen any new commercial development take off there yet, but that's why we're ending up with a crappy 5,000-seater instead of what could have been the best stadium in the country.

[fan]

ok lets list potential partners for the new, I mean revised, no I mean Kevin broken Pipe dream stadium.

Maintenance by Richard milhouse Plumber (responsible for leak repair)

Security by wolfboy "he will cry wolf all night long".

Sponsorship from Man U, Milan, Barcelona and that other league the CSA announced.

[The Ref]

I am one of people who criticize the CSA and after reading this long thread I get some satisfaction knowing that at least I am part of the majority in spite of all the name calling by the minority. Regarding the whipping boy Kevin Pipe, I have known Mr. Pipe since the early 80s and always strikes me as someone with a genuine interest in advancing Canadian soccer. But more often than not his battles are lost. I believe that when you work for a Board that is ineffective you tend to become one of them hurting your image in the process. You become a loner fighting the world. Can he initiate change at the Board level to improve it? maybe it is too late or beyond his power. Can he change the administrative side of things, surely he can. But he may have other things in his mind or he is just going with the flow. Would I like to see changes, certainly. Will I like to see Mr. Pipe doing better, certainly. Will I like to see the whole CSA disbanded and replaced by a Federation, most certainly. So why don't I apply for his job?, I am just too old now. I should have done it many years ago, but I had a profession already and stability for my life and family were more important. Besides I was just happy coaching and the thought of being in charge of the CSA never crossed my mind.

[FC Beast]

quote:Originally posted by The Ref

I am one of people who criticize the CSA and after reading this long thread I get some satisfaction knowing that at least I am part of the majority in spite of all the name calling by the minority. Regarding the whipping boy Kevin Pipe, I have known Mr. Pipe since the early 80s and always strikes me as someone with a genuine interest in advancing Canadian soccer. But more often than not his battles are lost. I believe that when you work for a Board that is ineffective you tend to become one of them hurting your image in the process. You become a loner fighting the world. Can he initiate change at the Board level to improve it? maybe it is too late or beyond his power. Can he change the administrative side of things, surely he can. But he may have other things in his mind or he is just going with the flow. Would I like to see changes, certainly. Will I like to see Mr. Pipe doing better, certainly. Will I like to see the whole CSA disbanded and replaced by a Federation, most certainly. So why don't I apply for his job?, I am just too old now. I should have done it many years ago, but I had a profession already and stability for my life and family were more important. Besides I was just happy coaching and the thought of being in charge of the CSA never crossed my mind.

Kevin Pipe should have never got involved with the Argos in the first

place. The Argo's and the CFL in general survive by the money they

receive (nfl welfare) from the National Football League. So who would

get involved with a league the loses money year after year? The CSA

need a major overhaul in it's management, and until that happens,

expect more of the same from that bunch.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by FC Beast

Kevin Pipe should have never got involved with the Argos in the first

place. The Argo's and the CFL in general survive by the money they

receive (nfl welfare) from the National Football League. So who would

get involved with a league the loses money year after year? The CSA

need a major overhaul in it's management, and until that happens,

expect more of the same from that bunch.

So everybody had better stay well clear of MLS which has lost hundreds of millions during its existence and which survives only thanks to the philanthropy of a couple of US billionaires. If that's the kind of attitude you espouse you had better whistle goodbye to any hopes you had of a pan-Canadian professional or even amateur league along the lines so often promoted here. The only hope any such league has of existing is on charitable handouts like the MLS.

I suggest also that the CFL draws a larger average gate than does the MLS.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

So everybody had better stay well clear of MLS which has lost hundreds of millions during its existence and which survives only thanks to the philanthropy of a couple of US billionaires. If that's the kind of attitude you espouse you had better whistle goodbye to any hopes you had of a pan-Canadian professional or even amateur league along the lines so often promoted here. The only hope any such league has of existing is on charitable handouts like the MLS.

I suggest also that the CFL draws a larger average gate than does the MLS.

That may be, but MLS already has more teams, plus the schedule is twice as long.

And any team entering MLS will not be doing so thanks to 'charity'.

[Richard]

More teams and a longer schedule but fewer people buying tickets, which one would you expect to be more viable?

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

That may be, but MLS already has more teams, plus the schedule is twice as long.

And any team entering MLS will not be doing so thanks to 'charity'.

MLS also has a longer schedule and fewer fans than the NFL.

I have sympathy for those of you in the so called "majority". MLS is a money losing venture that only a fool would build a stadium in addition to paying the franchise fee. However, those of you who think MLSE's interest is a sham, feel free to start criticizing MLS for Garbers comments re the Toronto franchise. Apparently MLS is every bit a disaster as the CSA - or do we have two standards?

Second, it should also be clear to all of you that "plan B" is Toronto being out of the equation for the U-20. Sorry boys, but U-20 is happening - and the apparent "majority" was wrong about that - whether it happens in Toronto is still in question, but that is about it.

For all of you in the "majority", please describe for me how the CSA should go about getting this stadium built. No absurd suggestions that they should build it themselves or convince the mythical canadian billionair to build it. Oh right, I know, replace the CEO and it will all come together. Realistically, some of you need to go out an put together some business deals of your own before you criticize the CSA's efforts.

Finally, for the special few who can't figure it out for yourselves. Gian-luca has posted here over 2000 times and within that span has posted several criticisms of the CSA where he thought they were warranted. Some of you seem to have attention deficit disorder or are trying to bolster a piss poor argument with baseless aspersions.

I am in agreement with Gian-luca that the CSA has done a good job in their efforts to have a stadium built in Toronto. Given that they do not have a spare $70-80 million lying around they could either get out their a try to get it done or sit on their collective asses and do nothing. But I'll tell you what, if any of you can come up with anything resembling a viable alternative to the avenue the CSA has pursued, share it with us and provide some rational basis for your criticism on this stadium venture. Because boys, at the end of the day, even if this stadium does not get built, we are no worse of than we are now. So unless you got the magic formula for getting the stadium built you are really critizing the CSA for making an effort. And that my friends, is exactly what you all criticize the CSA for not doing.

[imported_n/a1394647443]

quote:

Kevin Pipe should have never got involved with the Argos in the first

place. The Argo's and the CFL in general survive by the money they

receive (nfl welfare) from the National Football League. So who would

get involved with a league the loses money year after year? The CSA

need a major overhaul in it's management, and until that happens,

expect more of the same from that bunch.

As usual facts have no part of a beast, Johnny Canuck, canadianbeast05, canadiansoccerrules, CdnBhoy67, Mexico1986, soccerbeast, beast2005, truenorthsoccer, savagebeast, FC Beast, BigRedMapleLeaf post.

As I am a CFL follower I would like to see something to back that lie up. And don't bother with the 3 million repaid loan that I already told you about at BigSoccer. How about some facts for a change. That is why you anti-CSA guys have no respect. Always invective, no facts.

Tell me about the NFL welfare payments to the CFL. You can't, because there are none.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

To take this one step further, I was under the impression that the concrete base of the stadium was sound. The only thing that was 'condemned' was the wooden seating on the south and east sides. I remember when Reggina came to play their exhibition game, a bunch of contractors offered to fix the seating for free, to allow the sale of more tickets. But this was shot down (either by unions or the U of T, I can't recall wich one it was)

They way that the U of T handled the demise of Varsity really makes me sick every time I think about it. I bet that a pre-2002 Varsity could have been fixed up really nice with less then half the amount of money that the governments are pledging for the York U. stadium. This bugs me to no end. The people who run the U of T have no real vision.

Well, we can say that their vision was a bit different perhaps.

Yes, that's the point I wanted to make. The old structure was sound. If they'd taken care of the place, the whole 22k could have been in use today.

db

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Finally, for the special few who can't figure it out for yourselves. Gian-luca has posted here over 2000 times and within that span has posted several criticisms of the CSA where he thought they were warranted. Some of you seem to have attention deficit disorder or are trying to bolster a piss poor argument with baseless aspersions.

Holy cow! You're right, its over 2000 and I'm making it worse by posting again in a thread I said I was done in. But you are correct, I think its a sign of the myopia of a few posters that "not criticizing the CSA for the actions of a third party" (which is mainly what I've done in this thread) automatically means "Champion of the CSA". I had a go a Kevan Pipe in another thread for the exact same reasons Ed did in this thread (whatever Pipe's strengths are, media relations isn't one of them), but it seems to have passed a few posters by. I might not go quite as far (yet) as you by saying that they've done a good job in getting the stadium built, but as I mentioned earlier, I do applaud the concept, the plan of going for something permanent & non-embarassing as a national team stadium (and bringing the WYC with it), rather than the half-assed crap that others seem satisfied with. I guess those of us with long memories can still remmeber the days when we played friendlies in Canada against teams like Belgium in embarassing facilities, causing the Belgian coach Guy Thys to go apoplectic that an alleged first-world nation like Canada couldn't provide better facilities than that. Yeah, like we need a return to those days!

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Joe MacCarthy

Tell me about the NFL welfare payments to the CFL. You can't, because there are none.

The 1997 agreement between the CFL and the NFL in which the latter provided $3 Million to the CFL.

The deal has been extended to 2006 but not known if cash agreements are a part of it.

[Cheeta]

Wow. This thread just refuses to die.

I don't know. After New Varsity died it's whimpering death I'd have thought getting the York deal inked and done would have been priority #1. Not pricking around with this or that accepting delay after delay while waiting on another unforseen circumstance to come along and scuttle Argos (or York's) participation in the project.

Me. The Varsity experience would have spooked me enough that I'd have been super-dooper anxious to get the whole York scheme signed, sealed and delivered ASAP. And if sweetening the pot was necessary than so be it.

Now we don't know what happened behind the scenes, but the fact of the matter is the CSA and all it's political money couldn't get the Argos to jump in.

Rogers? They managed to close a deal with the Argos. On pretty short notice it seems too. A nice 5 to 15 year deal that also burnt the Argos bridges to the only stadium competition that the Skydome MIGHT have had.

So I'd say the CSA isn't without a mother-horking-huge amount of blame in all this. They brought a girl to the dance and ending up going home alone. They let her get sweet talked into the back seat of somebody elses car.

Was she a mut? Was she a mut and the CSA dosen't care? I don't think so. That honey has a 20 million dollar smile.

Oh yeah one other thing. Was this Rogers buying Skydome, renovating it and pursuing the Argos such a mystery? I'm sure within the industry circles it wasn't. How could it have been? If I'm right about that, and the CSA was truly ignorant of it, or didn't recognise the seriousness of this as a threat, or was unable to deal with the threat, than the CSA is open to much criticism.

The CSA tried to play Big Fish, turned out to be Little Fish, and ended up getting eaten. 'Cause that's what Big Fish do. Eat Little Fish.

The CSA were/are in over their heads. They've shown this twice now. Turns out they're nothing but mouth and for that (at the very least) they deserve a good hearty helping of what-for.

They as an organization were unable or unprepare to deal with the realitys of the Toronto sporting market with this 70 million dollar venture.

On a supposedly done deal.

With heavy, heavy, goverment subsidies.

You know what my boss would ask? Who gets kicked in the balls before I fire him?

And just try telling him "It wasn't my fault". That'll get you a second hoof right in the nards once you finishing throwing up.

Sorry, lads. But the CSA is to blame if this project fails. Not the Argos, not MLSE, and certainly not Rogers.

[imported_n/a1394647443]

quote:The deal has been extended to 2006 but not known if cash agreements are a part of it.

It's an agreement on working relationships and player transfers. The CFL doesn't need the money now like they needed the loan then so why would they get another loan. Remember it was the league (CFL) that bailed out TO and Ham not the NFL loan. The CFL bailed them out after the loan was pretty much paid.

http://www.nfl.com/international/story/7459802

CFL and NFL renew Canadian partnership

TORONTO (June 29, 2004) -- The Canadian Football League (CFL) and the National Football League (NFL) announced they have reached an agreement on the terms of their alliance continuing through to the 2006 season. The new agreement carries forward the cooperative venture established in 1997.

With growth of the sport of football in Canada as the primary objective, the new partnership establishes a Football Development Management Council (FDMC). Working in conjunction with Football Canada, the FDMC will explore the creation of programs to engage more Canadians in the game and will be comprised of an equal number of appointees from both leagues with a Canadian Chair. The FDMC will also initiate a comprehensive national study to research amateur football and football participation across Canada.

"The Canadian Football League is in a new and stronger position," said CFL Commissioner Tom Wright. "We look forward to the continued development of our game in Canada with recent solid results as our foundation. Better business performance in broadcast, at the gate and in retail has changed our focus to expansion of the Canadian game at the professional and amateur levels. To that end, our partnership with the NFL will play an important role in allowing us to better understand and prepare for the future of football in Canada."

"We support the CFL and its unique role in Canada, and share its goal of strengthening the interest and support of football among Canadians," said NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue. "As partners we have worked successfully to strengthen the sport of football in Canada, and the NFL looks forward to working with the CFL to build on these programs."

Under this new agreement, both leagues will support mutually agreed, co-branded grassroots programs in Canada. In addition to the continuation of Reebok NFL/CFL Flag Football, NFL/CFL Practice with the Pros, NFL/CFL High School Coach of the Year, the new NFL/CFL Junior Player Development and www.nflcflfutures.com, the FDMC will further promote the development of amateur tackle football.

Reebok NFL/CFL Flag Football Canada is an elementary in-school phys-ed program currently active in more than 1,300 schools and involving more than 300,000 Canadian youth. Practice with the Pros pairs NFL and CFL players for free introductory football clinics in CFL cities. The NFL/CFL High School Coach of the Year program supports Canadian high school football by recognizing its most dedicated coaches with thousands of dollars in new equipment each year.

The partnership maintains current player transfer guidelines and marks the end of any financial obligation between the leagues from the original 1997 agreement.

On the player transfer front, Commissioner Wright was clear. "We've consulted with each of our teams and the CFL Board of Governors, and as a league have elected to maintain the current set of guidelines governing player transfer between the CFL and the NFL, as we consider it an element of the agreement which is beneficial to both parties. When players know they can move between the NFL and the CFL in an organized fashion, it helps them optimize their careers."

CFL players with an option year remaining on their CFL contracts will continue to be permitted to sign contracts with NFL teams through the 2006 season. As in the past, these CFL players will not be allocated to NFL Europe League teams.

In addition to grassroots development and player transfer rules, the NFL will also provide exposure for live CFL games (including the Grey Cup, on a non-exclusive basis) through the NFL Network in the United States.

Another beast myth BUSTED!

[Robert]

[Whither Canada]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

[i am in agreement with Gian-luca that the CSA has done a good job in their efforts to have a stadium built in Toronto.

Seriously?

God help us if that was a good job.

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Wow. This thread just refuses to die.

I don't know. After New Varsity died it's whimpering death I'd have thought getting the York deal inked and done would have been priority #1. Not pricking around with this or that accepting delay after delay while waiting on another unforseen circumstance to come along and scuttle Argos (or York's) participation in the project.

Me. The Varsity experience would have spooked me enough that I'd have been super-dooper anxious to get the whole York scheme signed, sealed and delivered ASAP. And if sweetening the pot was necessary than so be it.

Now we don't know what happened behind the scenes, but the fact of the matter is the CSA and all it's political money couldn't get the Argos to jump in.

Rogers? They managed to close a deal with the Argos. On pretty short notice it seems too. A nice 5 to 15 year deal that also burnt the Argos bridges to the only stadium competition that the Skydome MIGHT have had.

So I'd say the CSA isn't without a mother-horking-huge amount of blame in all this. They brought a girl to the dance and ending up going home alone. They let her get sweet talked into the back seat of somebody elses car.

Was she a mut? Was she a mut and the CSA dosen't care? I don't think so. That honey has a 20 million dollar smile.

Oh yeah one other thing. Was this Rogers buying Skydome, renovating it and pursuing the Argos such a mystery? I'm sure within the industry circles it wasn't. How could it have been? If I'm right about that, and the CSA was truly ignorant of it, or didn't recognise the seriousness of this as a threat, or was unable to deal with the threat, than the CSA is open to much criticism.

The CSA tried to play Big Fish, turned out to be Little Fish, and ended up getting eaten. 'Cause that's what Big Fish do. Eat Little Fish.

The CSA were/are in over their heads. They've shown this twice now. Turns out they're nothing but mouth and for that (at the very least) they deserve a good hearty helping of what-for.

They as an organization were unable or unprepare to deal with the realitys of the Toronto sporting market with this 70 million dollar venture.

On a supposedly done deal.

With heavy, heavy, goverment subsidies.

You know what my boss would ask? Who gets kicked in the balls before I fire him?

And just try telling him "It wasn't my fault". That'll get you a second hoof right in the nards once you finishing throwing up.

Sorry, lads. But the CSA is to blame if this project fails. Not the Argos, not MLSE, and certainly not Rogers.

Thank you Cheeta! This should be required reading. Can we get this posted on the front page.

There you go for the rest of you, a nice way of saying go stick your heads back up your a$$es. Most of us from the Mediterranean don't have those kind of skills...eh, of telling people nicely that is. []

[Richard]

I've only been participating in this forum for a month or so and already I am fed up with all the backbiting and negativity. If this place is representative of the most dedicated Canadian soccer supporters no wonder half of Canada and the rest of the world regards Canadian soccer as a joke.

[fan]

The total responsibility for embarassment and negligence lies solely with the CSA and its people.

The reason that people regard Canadian soccer as a joke is because of the farce the CSA has presented.

If anyone other than Richard "plumber" supports this crap as good solid business strategy please speak up and expose your idiocy.

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I've only been participating in this forum for a month or so and already I am fed up with all the backbiting and negativity. If this place is representative of the most dedicated Canadian soccer supporters no wonder half of Canada and the rest of the world regards Canadian soccer as a joke.

So if we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya, My Lord, Kumbaya, the stadium at York will be built? I think that is the CSA's plan B.

It's funny, but it's only "negativity" when people disagree with you (I don't mean you specifically Richard, I just mean "you" in general).

And I still don't understand why people take this board so seriously. What, did the stadium did not get built because the beast said it won't?

Since when does "supporters" mean just blindly letting others tell you what to think?

The only ridiculous part of this board is when people get stupid and start attacking people personally, incl. Pipe et al.

[fan]

I agree mostly Elias.

"negativity" when things and events go bad most times someone is responsible. Sometimes a group is responsible but in most cases the leader made the directives and ultimate decisions. In this case both the leader and the group are negligent. It must become personal because Kevin is a person and as the leader he made numerous incompetent decisions and it is systemic because most of the people around him supported him.

The CSA system and it processes and hierarchy are flawed and in most cases undemocratic. The provincial bias and personal cliques that exist within the CSA today are toxic to the development of the sport.The CSA does not represent the sport of soccer in Canada equitably, democratically or competently. The sport of soccer in Canada must remove this board and review and revise all of the systems and procedures that exist.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I've only been participating in this forum for a month or so and already I am fed up with all the backbiting and negativity. If this place is representative of the most dedicated Canadian soccer supporters no wonder half of Canada and the rest of the world regards Canadian soccer as a joke.

If you are fed up, then you can at least relate to what it feels like for others who are also fed up, albeit that we are fed up over different issues. Referring to us being fed up as a joke, just because your perspective differs is disrespectful and only creates conflict. You are not obliged to agree with everything that is said, but blaming us for half of Canada and the rest of the world viewing Canadian soccer as a joke reflects your frustration and how you respond when subjected to frustration. There are reasons for our frustrations and it is not up to you to validate or dismiss them. Questioning our dedication to Canadian soccer is a joke. We who are fed up with how the affairs of Canadian soccer are being managed are trying to lobby for a change. It is our democratic right to do so. We are not fabricating a senario of yelling fire in a theater that has none. We are just like the many Canadians who are frustrated over how the Canadian government has managed the sponsorship deals. These people are not responsible for the world viewing Canada as a joke. They see a problem and want to have it addressed. Not allowing these people to express that they are fed up would not be democratic. Right now, where the similarities lie between the national politics and the national soccer politics is that they are both in the process of measuring the numbers of how many support those in power with how many have a lack of confidence of those in charge. The difference is, that the affairs of the country have a process in place if the opposition numbers warrant such action. The staging of a democratic election to determine if there should be a changing of the gaurd. Our greatest frustration lies in the fact that the CSA does not honour such a system. Politically the CSA is a dictatorship. The structure needs to be destructed and restructured. The board of directors are what I consider a joke. They are not business leaders accountable to shareholders or even the Canadian soccer community for that matter, for this community really has no voice in who or how soccer is managed in Canada. The CSA is an exclusive circle which over time has without opposition assumed control over the affairs of soccer in this country. Now that it has become apparent that many are fed up with how they manage, the question really is who is making Canadian soccer look like a joke? Those in charge of soccer, Kevan Pipe & the CSA, or those who oppose Kevan Pipe and the CSA?