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lamptern

The Importance of VAR

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If people don't like the interference of the VAR, they should watch WWC 2019, 1/8 finals England vs Cameron from start to end. Without the existence of VAR, the brilliant referee could have been eaten alive. 

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Posted (edited)

To some degree,  the referee was under VAR's pressure more and more as the game unfolds. She manged it well.

As long as the VAR delivered good angled video clips and correct offside judgements, they are doing their job well. They are not idiots in this game I think. The only complain I have is that they didn't show the opposite angle camera shot for the Cameron challenge in their box late in the game. If that angle is shown to the referee as broadcaster did, it would have made it easier for her.

Edited by lamptern

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4 hours ago, lamptern said:

If people don't like the interference of the VAR, they should watch WWC 2019, 1/8 finals England vs Cameron from start to end. Without the existence of VAR, the brilliant referee could have been eaten alive. 

Without VAR, I think England's second would have been disallowed for offside. Didn't the linesman have the flag up? And then VAR correctly overturned the very close offside decision, which was the source of all the aggravation that ensued. 

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8 hours ago, The Ref said:

I wonder if the idiots in the VAR booth are being assessed?

The way I understand it:

1. VAR is making all the offside decisions. These are a question of fact, not a question of opinion, so no need for the referee to review, and they seem to have software that draws the blue and red line and makes the factual decision for them.

2. Other than that, the job of the VAR team is to draw the referee's attention to decisions they feel warrant review. The REFEREE then looks at the replays and makes the final call.

Thus the only decisions made by the people in the VAR booth are to refer incidents to the referee for review, so it is more than a little harsh to call them "idiots".

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If all we care about is getting it correct, then we have to take the officials off the field and leave it entirely up to VAR.  I’m sorry but if this is what it has come to with so many stoppages making calls at such incredibly fine margins(in many cases) then I don’t think it’s worth it. Especially given that I think referees are not making calls, knowing that VAR will inevitably bail them out; no call is the safe call because they’ll get a second - and better - look. 

We can all sit and say that VAR is ultimately making the correct call, but the Cameroon disallowed goal was offside by what must have been millimetres!  Technically correct, but those are the types of fine lines I think I’m ok with. 

Is something different at this World Cup? At Russia I don’t feel like it was used nearly as much, but I’m not really up to date on changes to these types of things. 

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34 minutes ago, Lofty said:

The way I understand it:

1. VAR is making all the offside decisions. These are a question of fact, not a question of opinion, so no need for the referee to review, and they seem to have software that draws the blue and red line and makes the factual decision for them.

2. Other than that, the job of the VAR team is to draw the referee's attention to decisions they feel warrant review. The REFEREE then looks at the replays and makes the final call.

Thus the only decisions made by the people in the VAR booth are to refer incidents to the referee for review, so it is more than a little harsh to call them "idiots".

Do not feel offended, but you are soooo wrong.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, The Ref said:

Do not feel offended, but you are soooo wrong.

Ha ha, not offended (!) but I would like to know what you think is wrong. I was pretty specific so it should be easy to point out -- unless of course you are just being facetious.

I have been wrong before and will no doubt be wrong again!

Edited by Lofty

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4 hours ago, Lofty said:

Ha ha, not offended (!) but I would like to know what you think is wrong. I was pretty specific so it should be easy to point out -- unless of course you are just being facetious.

I have been wrong before and will no doubt be wrong again!

Some offsides are clear and hard to dispute.  But there a various situations that call for interpretation which may differ from person to person and are not a question of fact.  For instance: when does a gesture deceives or distracts and what gesture; when is a position deemed to be interfering; the opinion of the referee (not a question of fact) judges which player has opportunity or not; obstructing the GK line of vision is a tricky one as it depends who is looking where, height of players, movement, arms, etc.; gaining an advantage is another tricky one to judge.  There may be others that escape me as it is a while I referee myself and assessed other referees and ARs.  I feel blessed that the VAR didn't exist in my days, what a conundrum.  

 

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8 hours ago, The Ref said:

Some offsides are clear and hard to dispute.  But there a various situations that call for interpretation which may differ from person to person and are not a question of fact.  For instance: when does a gesture deceives or distracts and what gesture; when is a position deemed to be interfering; the opinion of the referee (not a question of fact) judges which player has opportunity or not; obstructing the GK line of vision is a tricky one as it depends who is looking where, height of players, movement, arms, etc.; gaining an advantage is another tricky one to judge.  There may be others that escape me as it is a while I referee myself and assessed other referees and ARs.  I feel blessed that the VAR didn't exist in my days, what a conundrum.  

Yes, you are right of course, sometimes a judgement call must be made but only in a couple of very specific instances.

As discussed in another thread, you are only penalized for being in an offside position if you either touch the ball or interfere with an opponent's ability to play the ball. Touching the ball is a question of fact (although VAR may not have software to determine this, it is almost always obvious). Being in an offside position is a question of fact and VAR does have software to determine this.

So the ref would only need to make a call in the case where the possibly offside player may have interfered with an opponent's ability to play the ball, or when there is doubt whether the offside player actually touched the ball. But the vast majority of offsides do not fall into these categories.

 

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24 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

As a Spain fan, I thought that was a disgustingly biased refereeing performance, really disgraceful. I don't think the VAR is the worst of it, though that soft penalty came when Spain was having a great 2nd half.   

You can't blame VAR for the soft penalty.  In fact, they offered it as something the ref should look at again.  That's all they can do.

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3 minutes ago, rkomar said:

You can't blame VAR for the soft penalty.  In fact, they offered it as something the ref should look at again.  That's all they can do.

Since the player took two steps after contact, and then fell, it is suspect. Yes, there is contact, but the ref simply looked like she had a job to do, the one Alex Morgan was instructing her on the whole game. 

Canada has seen how the US does that a few times.

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The slow-mo closeups of the fouls showed how the US players embellished so much.  Instead of landing on their feet, they would often lift their feet on contact and flop to the ground.  The ref fell for it most of the time.

I don't mind that the US won the game; they were expected to.  I'm just disgusted that the poor reffing was the difference that won them the game.  Let's see if the same ref gets any more games in the tournament.  Even more interesting, will the US get the same help playing against the French?

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21 hours ago, Lofty said:

The way I understand it:

1. VAR is making all the offside decisions. These are a question of fact, not a question of opinion, so no need for the referee to review, and they seem to have software that draws the blue and red line and makes the factual decision for them.

2. Other than that, the job of the VAR team is to draw the referee's attention to decisions they feel warrant review. The REFEREE then looks at the replays and makes the final call.

Thus the only decisions made by the people in the VAR booth are to refer incidents to the referee for review, so it is more than a little harsh to call them "idiots".

Point #1 and #2: Exactly! Offsides seem to be handled well. The problems start when the VAR guy (they are mostly men, by the way) thinks his judgement is better than the on-field referee's judgement.

"CLEAR & OBVIOUS ERRORs". I thought this was supposed to be the defining principle of VAR.

At this 2019 WWC the VAR officials appear to be questioning and second-guessing the judgment of the on-field referees far too often. If you are an on-field referee, under huge pressure, both because its a World Cup and because you are a female, then I think the tendency has been to change your call just to cover your own butt, even if the video shows your original call to be defensible. The VAR officials have to butt out, keep their opinions to themselves, and stick to OFFSIDES and CLEAR & OBVIOUS ERRORS.

And why does it take them 2-3 minutes to look at a play, and only then call the on-field ref over to the video screen. The on-field ref should immediately go to the screen and be part of that 2-3 minute "group" debate. If a judgement call takes 3 minutes to discuss, then it was probably correct to begin with. One again: CLEAR & OBVIOUS ERRORS ONLY.

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Posted (edited)

I've watched some of the Copa America men's games which is taking place right now.  These games have everything under the sun and not once has the VAR intervened.  Makes me think the VAR men refs for the WWC feel they need to "correct" the lady refs on the field.  Wrong!

Edited by The Ref

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I actually don't think the penalty was that great.

1. Not a lot of pace

2. Didn't get it all the way to the corner, it just looked that way on the live angle.

3. Instep hit telegraphed where it was going. 

Sinclair aside, it was poor. Tough beat. 

 

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19 hours ago, rkomar said:

The slow-mo closeups of the fouls showed how the US players embellished so much.  Instead of landing on their feet, they would often lift their feet on contact and flop to the ground.  The ref fell for it most of the time.

Earlier in the tournament, in another thread, I said that the refereeing was sub-par.  Man, did that offend people!  I said that using only female referees was unfair to the players who earned the right to be here.  My flame retarding underwear was barely up to the task.  I said VAR was so intrusive here precisely because the all-female officiating staff were unable to call offside correctly, and that they weren't good enough for the level of the games (not is so many words, but that was the gist).  Well, I think I am being rather soundly vindicated by the last few matches.  When the US was hammering Thailand the referee wasn't important.  When the US was jobbing Spain out of at least a regulation draw now we see how poorly prepared the referees are.  The referee blew Canada's chances in 2012 due to the overt pressure applied by the USWNT and  Wambach, and here the referee was taken in by the US professional diving team. 

I support women in sports, especially soccer, and that includes referees.  That doesn't mean that only women should coach, or officiate, or organize, or work the concessions at a Women's tournament.  The women who have earned the right to play at a WWC should not be knocked out because someone thinks that it is more important to give female referees a training opportunity.  Let female referees earn the right to be there.  They can get their training in league play and earn their right to progress just like any other referee.

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1 hour ago, Patrick said:

Earlier in the tournament, in another thread, I said that the refereeing was sub-par.  Man, did that offend people!

Ha ha, that is a funny thing that seems to happen here: people think that you are offended if they disagree with you!

I was not in the least offended by your opinions Patrick and I think/hope you were not offended by mine. I thought it was just a healthy exchange of views. The place where it can deteriorate for me is when someone who disagrees with me starts throwing out personal insults, like calling me dumb, or a troll, or ludicrously saying I am embarrassing myself, or implying that I don't think before I post, all because they disagree with me but are apparently incapable of saying why without using insults. That is the point where they are likely to feel the sharp edge of my keyboard. But you have never done that Patrick so please keep it up. And feel free to express any opinion you like: I enjoy a good debate and you will not offend me!

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4 hours ago, Patrick said:

I think there were a few others beside yourself who disagreed with me.  But it's all in rhetorical good fun.

Just so long as we are good! 😉

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Reading about the criticism of the VAR at the Copa América in Brazil what it boils down to is the VAR saying you guy down there (the ref on the pitch) don't know what you are doing, we will call it right from our one dimensional screen.  The referee who is live and close to the action on the field and who can read the game, body language, facial expressions, expletives, etc. is there just for show.  The actual refereeing is done from a TV screen which cannot even hear the players.  The VAR with all its inconsistency has got to go.  Just keep the referee and assistants on the field.  Soccer until now has survived just fine for some 100 years.

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VAR isn't helping much if it can't at least bring some consistency to the application of the rules.  Japan was done in by a hand ball, the USA gets a pass.  Offside is now called to the millimeter but studs up challenges and spitting on opponents are not dealt with correctly.  Me, I am happy that goal line technology exists because it is black and white.  The offside calls strike me as being too legalistic in a game that has few enough goals as it is.  For the rest, I think I prefer letting a referee decide it on the field, missed calls and all, rather than watching constant appeals for video review.  Let the game flow.

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