Canadian Premier League

[matty]

9 minutes ago, Mister215Guy said:

You might want to check on successful Australians in Europe vs. Americans. Also, Australia doesn't have dual-national military kids in Europe and everyone starts in the A-League.

I'm talking MLS vs A-League but hey USA are 24th in the world atm and Australia are 40th.

Back to MLS vs A-League, A-League struggles to compete with both MLS and CSL for foreign talent and they level of play is lower. To quote Tim Cahill when he went to the Red Bulls and people wanted him in the A-leauge: "Moving to the A-League would have been a step backwards"

[Mister215Guy]

Check this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Aleague/comments/51yxys/the_aleague_is_better_than_the_mls/ 

[-Hammer-]

31 minutes ago, Mister215Guy said:

Hell no. MLS is NOT #2. Portland Timbers, last year's champs got eliminated by a Costa Rican club. In the past US clubs have lost to Nicaragua and Trinidad. The only reason MLS won't make Canadians domestic in the US because they're afraid that Canadian players will get all the spots and worthless yank players will be left out. The CPL is the perfect place to prove Canada has more talent than our rubbish neighbours. BTW I'm an American who just recently relocated to Canada because I hate everything about the US and want to live in a civilized society. I fully support Canada.

To the first, point. The success or failures of a single team don't speak for a league as a whole, and while I will certainly agree that MLS is not the definitive #2 leauge in CONCAAF...one thing you can't argue is that the MLS has still managed to progress their national team far more then our lack of a league and current development path does. To say suddenly Canadians are able to take over all the MLS en masse is absurd. I will agree though, Canadians likely would take over various spots if the rule was adjusted.

To the second, this is absurd. There simply aren't enough Canadian players, that even if the domestic rule were changed, would suddenly overtake the MLS. It would be nice, and certainly a step in the right direction, and give Canadians more places to play and more reason to commit to the game, and  if it were to happen, while I would certainly expect more Canadian presence in MLS. However, it would not overtake the entire MLS overnight which you seem to be implying. The reason they are doing it, which you did allude to is simple. The MLS is a US based league, it's designed to develop and give jobs to US players. Simple as that. Most soccer leauges in the world have similar domestic requirements for just that same reason. The MLS's job isn't to develop Canadians, it's to make money and develop US players. Canadians are just an afterthought.

To the third, the CPL is more the place for Canada to generate better players for our national team, because right now, our players have nowhere to go. MLS jobs are few and far between, the NASL has a foot in the grave and USL pay is a joke and it's a glass ceiling. Maybe one day (knock on wood) it would surplant the MLS in our country, but I think even the most ardent CPL supposrts agree, this is a groudn up operation that is going to take a lot of work and dedication, from owners, the CSA, fans, supporters groups and players. Lets get to work and hope it works out.

[matty]

4 minutes ago, Mister215Guy said:

Check this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Aleague/comments/51yxys/the_aleague_is_better_than_the_mls/ 

Yes fan forums are better for determining how good a league is than player and management opinions

[matty]

11 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

To the first, point. The success or failures of a single team don't speak for a league as a whole, and while I will certainly agree that MLS is not the definitive #2 leauge in CONCAAF...

While I agree with almost everything you said. MLS is the DEFINITIVE #2 league in CONCACAF.

Since the MLS came into existence, it has produced more champions and finalists in both the CCL and CCC than any other league in CONCACAF with the expection of Liga MX and since the creation of the modern CCL format 5 MLS teams have reached Semis which is as many as the next two league combined and MLS is the only league in the region (other than Liga MX) to reach a CCL final in the current format (having done so twice).

 

Beyond that, no league is as stable has MLS in the region (even Liga MX sides struggle with stability at times)

[Gopherbashi]

We're not actually having this debate, right?

[Ansem]

55 minutes ago, Mister215Guy said:

Do you believe Canada is better than the US in soccer? If yes, then we should have a better league than that steaming pile of dung called MLS. Don't subject those 3 to mediocrity forever.

You do realize that the 3 Canadian Clubs are loaded with American players and Canadian players barely get any starting minutes. right?

[-Hammer-]

40 minutes ago, matty said:

While I agree with almost everything you said. MLS is the DEFINITIVE #2 league in CONCACAF.

Since the MLS came into existence, it has produced more champions and finalists in both the CCL and CCC than any other league in CONCACAF with the expection of Liga MX and since the creation of the modern CCL format 5 MLS teams have reached Semis which is as many as the next two league combined and MLS is the only league in the region (other than Liga MX) to reach a CCL final in the current format (having done so twice).

There is no question Liga-MX is the king of CONCAAF

However, if I'm not mistaken several times Costa Rica has beaten MLS teams to the punch, in fact just two years back. Also, if I'm not mistaken, four Costa Rican teams have made it to the Semi's in the last 6 years alone.

Also, current format may also be the key word there, as Costa Rica dominates MLS since it's founding 7 final appearances to MLS's three.

One could also argue Costa Rica only having two berths puts them at a substantial disadvatage compared to the US's 4 + 1 more additional "MLS" slot in Canada. That they are basically doing more with less.

Once could also argue Costa Rica's progression in the last World Cup being further then the US indicates better national team development thought their league and it's structure.

but I suppose if you discount these points...then yeah, it wouldn't be argueable. That is also not to say that FPD is definitively better then the MLS either. Merely arguments could be made for or against either.

 

[matty]

10 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

There is no question Liga-MX is the king of CONCAAF

However, if I'm not mistaken several times Costa Rica has beaten MLS teams to the punch, in fact just two years back. Also, if I'm not mistaken, four Costa Rican teams have made it to the Semi's in the last 6 years alone.

Also, current format may also be the key word there, as Costa Rica dominates MLS since it's founding 7 final appearances to MLS's three.

One could also argue Costa Rica only having two berths puts them at a substantial disadvatage compared to the US's 4 + 1 more additional "MLS" slot in Canada. That they are basically doing more with less.

Once could also argue Costa Rica's progression in the last World Cup being further then the US indicates better national team development.

but I suppose if you discount these points...then yeah, it wouldn't be argueable. That is also not to say that FPD is definitively better then the MLS either. Merely arguments could be made for or against either.

 

In the current forman, 4 Costa Rican teams have reached semis to MLS' 5 and no Costa Rican team has reached a final while MLS has seen 2. Also 5 MLS clubs have reached the final since it was created, the same number of Costa Rican clubs that have reached the final since 1996 (and remember since 2008 no Costa Rican club has). It also just so happens that all of Costa Rica's best results for the 20 years have been produced by the same 3 clubs.

The only thing that could be argued is that Costa Rica has 3 rich teams in their league, which as a whole is much weaker than MLS, that have the ability to remain competitive with MLS clubs and recently have been proved weaker.

Also if you wanna bring up the World Cup, I could easily point to the Gold Cup, where the US have constantly done better than Costa Rica (even last year when the US bombed hard).

 

[Complete Homer]

As ridiculous as this thread is, it does demonstrate that CONCACAF really should be publishing the league coefficients

[matty]

3 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

As ridiculous as this thread is, it does demonstrate that CONCACAF really should be publishing the league coefficients

The CPL in its current form would rank #6 and have two CCL spots 

[Gopherbashi]

11 minutes ago, matty said:

The CPL in its current form would rank #6 and have two CCL spots 

Current form?  

[-Hammer-]

1 minute ago, matty said:

In the current forman, 4 Costa Rican teams have reached semis to MLS' 5 and no Costa Rican team has reached a final while MLS has seen 2. Also 5 MLS clubs have reached the final since it was created, the same number of Costa Rican clubs that have reached the final since 1996 (and remember since 2008 no Costa Rican club has). It also just so happens that all of Costa Rica's best results for the 20 years have been produced by the same 3 clubs.

The only thing that could be argued is that Costa Rica has 3 rich teams in their league, which as a whole is much weaker than MLS, that have the ability to remain competitive with MLS clubs and recently have been proved weaker.

Also if you wanna bring up the World Cup, I could easily point to the Gold Cup, where the US have constantly done better than Costa Rica (even last year when the US bombed hard).

 

All valid points, but also rebuttals to many of them. So we subtract three years from MLS's founding to take away three of Costa Rica's? Also, the majority of MLS's appearances have also been the LA Galaxy, so playing the rich team card is a bit of a misnomer. Additionally we aren't addressing the simple fact that MLS have 5 effective berths, the FPD has two. That means these competative across the board MLS teams should have been making appearances and winning by a margin of at least 5-2 which they aren't.

The fact this arguement is occuring, is kinda proving my point it is argueable, but this is getting away from the main topic anyways, and that is we should all support the CPL to benefit our national team, soccer as a whole in our country and we shouldn't expect it to be this ultimate solution to our problems.

It took MLS a decade and a half to move the US national team a round ahead, and while I truly do believe that we in Canada can produce a better system that will produce better (if Iceland can do it after all) but if anyone is thinking the CPL is going to pay dividends for the Qatar campaign or that the league is going to be an overnight success because Canadian players as they stand right now, could take over all the MLS domestic spots if they had the rule changed, is mistaken.

 

[Complete Homer]

So completely different direction, but I was thinking about @matty's Southampton theory, and there's some interesting stuff. Southampton has been attempting to access the north american market in some small ways, like coaching clinics, which isn't much different than the other EPL teams (http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/34850381, http://www.90min.com/posts/2938510-southampton-s-american-dream)

However, Krueger's own comments have a little weight:

"Every time I speak about the club outside of Southampton, I am trying to build the brand - and those conversations are going on in North America and Europe on a regular basis." [...] We are working in North America on new sponsorship opportunities and every time I sit down with a top executive, I begin with the manifesto. [...] There is huge international interest in the club - we have a province of Switzerland that wants to partner with us to improve tourist links and recently the German equivalent of BBC1 screened a special feature about our club."

The North American market is one Mr Krueger is keen to develop. A recent NBC Sports documentary tells the story of The Southampton Way in a compelling narrative that reveals the core values of developing talent from within (and often with local lads) with a talented staff whose aim is to make Southampton Football Club a top flight player on a global stage.

"In American people think we are as big as Manchester United. They have no history of following English clubs and so have no preconceived ideas.

"North America is a logical link for us. I understand the market and it is the fastest growing and most valuable.

"Football is the fastest growing sport in the world and it is about exploring the intellectual brand and intellectual capital."

 

Nothing groundbreaking, but at least consistent with @matty's idea

[Gopherbashi]

2 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

"In American people think we are as big as Manchester United. They have no history of following English clubs and so have no preconceived ideas.

I don't really follow the EPL in the slightest, so I think I could stand in for "American people" in saying this thought is delusional.

[Complete Homer]

Just now, Gopherbashi said:

I don't really follow the EPL in the slightest, so I think I could stand in for "American people" in saying this thought is delusional.

That quote is 100% marketing speech, of course, just using it to show they consider north America an avenue for growth in some way (not necessarily a club of course) 

[-Hammer-]

8 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

I don't really follow the EPL in the slightest, so I think I could stand in for "American people" in saying this thought is delusional.

 

7 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

That quote is 100% marketing speech, of course, just using it to show they consider north America an avenue for growth in some way (not necessarily a club of course) 

Yeah, that sounds like to me "Man U, Man City, Arsenal and Chelsea are all managing to sell merch in North America. We want in on the racket"

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

lol the irony of buddy's tag being "u-20" when in reality i'd wager it's probably more like u11

Still, good to know we've found the way into a few hearts and minds.

[matty]

How I rank the possible Euro Clubs (mentioned) that want into CPL

Reasonable
Celtic, Southampton, Benfica, Roma

Could be but Unlikely
Lazio, Olympiacos

Clear Jokes
Genk, Pescara, Manchester City, Rayo Vallecano, Atletico Madrid, West Ham

Please God No
Maccabi Tel Aviv

[Complete Homer]

5 minutes ago, matty said:

How I rank the possible Euro Clubs (mentioned) that want into CPL

Reasonable
Celtic, Southampton, Benfica, Roma

Could be but Unlikely
Lazio, Olympiacos

Clear Jokes
Genk, Pescara, Manchester City, Rayo Vallecano, Atletico Madrid, West Ham

Please God No
Maccabi Tel Aviv

I tweeted back and forth a bit with Rollins on this. He really emphasize ld that the Euro group is not the Toronto owner. Since he said (to paraphrase), it wouldn't be hard to figure out who it was, I think we can rule Goldhar's Maccabi out of being the group interested in a satellite club

My biggest question is what they intend to do if Toronto/Hamilton/Ottawa are taken since they are reported to be interested in Ontario. 

[matty]

2 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I tweeted back and forth a bit with Rollins on this. He really emphasize ld that the Euro group is not the Toronto owner. Since he said (to paraphrase), it wouldn't be hard to figure out who it was, I think we can rule Goldhar's Maccabi out of being the group interested in a satellite club

My biggest question is what they intend to do if Toronto/Hamilton/Ottawa are taken since they are reported to be interested in Ontario. 

If it is about growing a brand then they might be looking for a way into the Canadian market. Knowing that they won't be able to get one of Ontario's big 3 might not matter.

[Macksam]

Red Bull Mississauga. They made in roads into Germany and Brazil. The German club might even win the Bundesliga this year lol

[Alex D]

Coventry Cornwall FC

[Gopherbashi]

7 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

My biggest question is what they intend to do if Toronto/Hamilton/Ottawa are taken since they are reported to be interested in Ontario. 

If it had 4x the population and 2x the disposable income, part of my thinks they'd be aiming for Kingston.  Queen's just built a new 8500-seat stadium which is desperately short of any revenue generation in the summer months.

Of course, it doesn't have those modifiers, so it's a moot point.

Which makes me think either London (which would be odd with the new London TFC partnership, or hopefully not a new club), or KW.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Gopherbashi said:

If it had 4x the population and 2x the disposable income, part of my thinks they'd be aiming for Kingston.  Queen's just built a new 8500-seat stadium which is desperately short of any revenue generation in the summer months.

Kingston Metro Population: 169k as of 2015. It's geography makes it desirable as it's right in the middle of the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto triangle and part of the Quebec-Windsor corridor.

The new stadium looks great but I question the local corporate support...

Kingston as a CPL 2 location makes more sense to me just like those cities from my hypothetical D2 CPL 2 that I wrote:  Peel-Halton (Mississauga), Durham (Oshawa), York Region (Richmond Hill), Barrie, St. Catharines-Niagara, Sherbrooke, Kelowna, Abbotsford, Kingston, Sudbury, Saguenay, Trois-Rivières, Guelph, Red Deer, Lethbridge, Thunder Bay, Brantford, Peterborough, Saint John NB, Chatam-Kent, Cape Breton

1 hour ago, Gopherbashi said:

Which makes me think either London (which would be odd with the new London TFC partnership, or hopefully not a new club), or KW.

The only way TFC can be part of CPL is by some kind of partnership and/or minority/silent shareholder in a team. With TFC wanting so bad into the league, London makes total sense as a CPL team.