Contributions to MNT by our Academies

[madmonte]

ThiKu - I've got the thread title changed to reflect academies not just MLS academies. This isn't an exact science given the mishmash we've had for pro development academies in Canada but it's a start.

Nana we disagree on then. I feel TFC should get credit for helping his development. He was with TFC from 2007-2011 and spent the vast majority (all but 5 games) of the first 2 years in their reserves. It wasn't until August 2008 that he played for the first team. So that is almost 2 years in the reserves.

REB was with the Caps residency from 2008 to 2010 for 3 years. He bounced back and forth between the first team and the residency but spent the vast majority of his time in the residency program. We both agree that the Caps fubar'd that one. I have always said letting him go was a mistake because I felt he could be at least a MLS level player.

Like I said I hope it will get easier now that all 4 of our pro teams have academies and the boundries are clearer. In the past it was a lot murkier.

To me Nana gets credit as well.

[jpg75]

Just to be clear, TFC as an organization should get credit for turning Nana from a promising youth player (17 going on 18 in 2007) into a professional. It's just that it wasn't their academy that did it.

[tmcmurph]

Just to be clear, TFC as an organization should get credit for turning Nana from a promising youth player (17 going on 18 in 2007) into a professional. It's just that it wasn't their academy that did it.

Yes, agreed. TFC were a bit late to the acadmey game but have a solid operation now. I've also said earlier in the thread that if some Messi like player comes along and only plays one year in the academy and then makes the jump right to the first team as a 17 year old that they should count. Oh to have such luck

[ThiKu]

^haha that'd be a dream!

[masster]

I don't really understand the argument in this thread. The intent was really to see which clubs have played an integral role in developing our younger players. In my opinion, whether that is part of an academy or part of the first team is irrelevant. What we really should be looking at is the 15-22 age range. If Kyle Porter goes on to a long and successful MLS career, not only should Vancouver get credit, but Edmonton should as well. They gave a shot and playing time to a young Canadian player and it paid off for both the player and the club.

I feel the same way about Marcus Haber and the Whitecaps. Even though he was never actually part of the residency program, the fact that he got a chance at meaningful first team minutes as a young player was really important for his development. Ditto for Nana and TFC.

On a side note, how did the Whitecaps screw up on REB exactly? He wanted to leave the club the try Europe. Spending the time he did in Finland was probably the best thing for him. Would he have gotten that opportunity if he would have stayed? Probably not. Even now, I am not sure if he would get significant minutes on this Whitecaps team.

[tmcmurph]

masster - The intent is to see how effective our academies are at developing players for our MNT. If in a decade the vast majority of our MNT players still go overseas for training at a young age I would consider the academies a failure. They should be producing high quality players before then. The tricky part was what about those who get their start in Canadian academies but then fly the coup to Europe etc. TFC had 3 or 4 in that boat but they had all spent 2 years in a high quality program. That improved them to the point where they had the skills and confidence to take a shot at Europe. That is why I am focusing on about 2 years in an academy (or equivalent in Nana's case ).

The big problem with the 15-22 age range is around the age of 17-18 a lot of players turn down the clubs offer to try their luck elsewhere. Porter is an example of that. He turned down an offer from the Caps for similar salary but more playing time in Edmonton. Haber was similar in that he had Euro aspirations and WestBrom offered a transfer fee for him. It worked out well for both. The youth years that got Haber good enough to play for the Caps and get noticed by WestBrom were not at the Caps residency, it was with the Vancouver Selects (2002-6) & Groningen (2006-8). Hard to beat 2+ years of training in Holland.

I agree that the 18-22 development years are crucial but they may be spent at NCAA, D2, Euro D2/3, amongst other options. There is no way the clubs can control that. The players at that point make basic life and career decissions based on what they feel is best for themselves. It won't always work out for the clubs. Playing only 10-12 games in the reserves is no match for 30+ games in a league. More loan outs to lower leagues is very important but just starting in North America.

As to REB apparently the Caps told him that he wasn't in their MLS plans. Maybe they thought he was too small or lacking in other areas. In any case he went to Finland and lit it up with 16 goals in 20 games and got a tryout with a B2 team. It's the Caps loss IMHO but at least he plays for Canada and not Ghana so we got one back.

[canucklefan]

On a side note, how did the Whitecaps screw up on REB exactly? He wanted to leave the club the try Europe. Spending the time he did in Finland was probably the best thing for him. Would he have gotten that opportunity if he would have stayed? Probably not. Even now, I am not sure if he would get significant minutes on this Whitecaps team.

I don't know if this part is directed at me. To be clear, I never said the Whitecaps screwed REB. The problem I have with tmcmurph's argument is that he created this thread because of the criticism the Whitecaps receives for the lack of Canadian content. I don't have a problem with that. In other words, the current Canadian players on the Whitecaps roster aren't good enough to get playing time in the starting XI and Academies should be credited for players that have played for MNT.

My problem considering REB as a contribution is:

So being on a B2 team about to be promoted to B1 and getting playing time as a substitute doesn't make a contribution in your eyes? WTF? Have you seen Braunschweig's striker pool? 20 times on the field with 400+ minutes in close to 2 seasons. That is not shabby when you have Kumbela with 16 goals, Kruppke with 8 and the rest of the team with 18. Just no pleasing some people.

Like the Canadian players in the Whitecaps who aren't getting playing time, REB has the same issues with his current club. Why REB has considered contribution when he's having difficulties getting playing time?

What the program needs it's players playing on regular basis with their clubs. Philippe Davies didn't play a single minute in MLS, yet he is "contribution" to the MNT. Just to be clear, my problem it's not the club, it's the argument of this thread.

[tmcmurph]

My problem considering REB as a contribution is:

Like the Canadian players in the Whitecaps who aren't getting playing time, REB has the same issues with his current club. Why REB has considered contribution when he's having difficulties getting playing time?

What the program needs it's players playing on regular basis with their clubs. Philippe Davies didn't play a single minute in MLS, yet he is "contribution" to the MNT. Just to be clear, my problem it's not the club, it's the argument of this thread.

IMHO any player who is called up and chooses to play for us is contributing. The coaches on the MNT obviously think he is contributing or they wouldn't give him a second look. Their contribution is measured by 1 point per call up & getting on the field. That is how much they are contributing to our MNT. A good player with lots is obviously better and contributing more than those with 1 call up or never on the field, but they all count.

The current status of a player is irrelevant. They do not always control their fate. To discount players because they are between teams or getting limited playing time is not fair. A lot of players performed for us very well whilst being between teams like Ali Gerba. Simon Thomas was without a club but played well and is now signed to the Caps. By adjusting for the number of call ups each player gets their contribution is easily seen. Not all call ups are great contributors and they get a lot less calls as a result.

REB is considered a contribution the same way that Teibert is. They show up and play for us when called and not some other country or sit on the fence forever!

PS. I started this thread to spur some discussion about contributions to our MNT that don't revolve around "MLS first team minutes" as that is only one measure of how much a club is helping our MNT but seemed to get the most focus. Of course I'd love to see lots of MNT eligible players on the Caps. We currently have 5 but few will see many MLS first team minutes because it is a tough lineup to crack.

[madmonte]

IMHO any player who is called up and chooses to play for us is contributing.

This is obvious, and is the point of the thread. It's not even debatable. If you play for the National team, then you are, de facto, a contribution of the Academy to our CMNT pool. It's a direct relation. B1, B2, sub, whatever, competely irrelevant. Even if you play for 3rd tier Sweden, or 2nd tier Romania, and then play for our CMNT, you are contributing to the national squad. Wait, what, that's been happening too?

However TCMurph, I still feel that MLS minutes accrued by Canadian players is an important factor as well. Why have academies if you can't recruit from them, right? And it shows which Canadian teams are most supporting Canadian players. That argument, of course, is for the other thread, but I will be doing that thread again next year (MLS teams, Canadian minutes), and as I am supporting your thread, I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from disparaging mine when I choose to do it again.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

The intent is to see how effective our academies are at developing players for our MNT.

The problem with this is the MNT doesn't need youth players, it needs professional footballer to get better. Youth development is important but it's only part of it. The academies are doing a poor job at getting these youth players any professional experience. It is the Europeans clubs who are still doing most of the leg work in taking these youth players and turning them into professional footballers who are ready to play for the CMNT.

[tmcmurph]

The problem with this is the MNT doesn't need youth players, it needs professional footballer to get better. Youth development is important but it's only part of it. The academies are doing a poor job at getting these youth players any professional experience. It is the Europeans clubs who are still doing most of the leg work in taking these youth players and turning them into professional footballers who are ready to play for the CMNT.

Or the players are making the choice to try Europe, D2/3 or NCAA in which case the clubs that helped them get their MLS rights and nothing more. So far the majority of the players for our MNT are still from overseas academies but that is starting to change.

I would like to see someone else start a thread about 18-22 year old development to track that for a decade and see which route is getting the most players to our MNT. NCAA, stay with the MLS club, European adventures, etc.

We need more metrics for all age groups. If you don't measure it you can't manage it.

[tmcmurph]

I still feel that MLS minutes accrued by Canadian players is an important factor as well. Why have academies if you can't recruit from them, right? And it shows which Canadian teams are most supporting Canadian players. That argument, of course, is for the other thread, but I will be doing that thread again next year (MLS teams, Canadian minutes), and as I am supporting your thread, I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from disparaging mine when I choose to do it again.

MLS minutes are a valid measure but it is only one. If I've disparaged your thread in the past I apologize as I do feel it has value but just one measure. Others take it as an opportunity to piss all over the Caps which used to piss me off royally. Please do keep tracking the MLS first team minutes. To make sense of such a complex issue we need more data tracked.

I hope someone else starts a thread for tracking the 18-22 year old group. In a decade or so we could see which academy, 18-22 year old program (NCAA, D2/3, Europe, South America) and MLS team contributes the most to our MNT. It could turn out that European experience still trumps all else but we might find out other useful facts as well.

[madmonte]

The problem with this is the MNT doesn't need youth players, it needs professional footballer to get better. Youth development is important but it's only part of it. The academies are doing a poor job at getting these youth players any professional experience. It is the Europeans clubs who are still doing most of the leg work in taking these youth players and turning them into professional footballers who are ready to play for the CMNT.

Umm...a guy can be 30 and still be an academy project. So yes, getting them professional experience is part of it for me, too...which is what I argued in my other thread. I agree on that front. But don't be pigeonholed in thinking that we are referring to young guys...anyone who was once in an academy, right? 10 years from now hopefully this thread becomes really epic.

[The Ref]

The problem with this is the MNT doesn't need youth players, it needs professional footballer to get better. Youth development is important but it's only part of it. The academies are doing a poor job at getting these youth players any professional experience. It is the Europeans clubs who are still doing most of the leg work in taking these youth players and turning them into professional footballers who are ready to play for the CMNT.

I am not sure if I understood you correctly. You seem to blame the academies of doing a poor job towards professional experience. I think that if there were more pro clubs in Canada and a pro league where the clubs farm system can be the next step for graduating players from academies, it will then channel these youngsters toward professionalism. I also think that it is the European clubs who are filling this need for us. Furthermore in my view our players in Europe develop in different systems of play making it difficult when they all come together in our MNT, we don't quite blend together to form a more cohesive team.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

I am not sure if I understood you correctly. You seem to blame the academies of doing a poor job towards professional experience. I think that if there were more pro clubs in Canada and a pro league where the clubs farm system can be the next step for graduating players from academies, it will then channel these youngsters toward professionalism. I also think that it is the European clubs who are filling this need for us. Furthermore in my view our players in Europe develop in different systems of play making it difficult when they all come together in our MNT, we don't quite blend together to form a more cohesive team.

I am talking about the professional clubs in Canada taking players who they have brought through their youth system and giving them a chance at the professional level. Instead we see these clubs releasing their youth players and the job is falling to clubs in Europe who are taking them from being a youth player and turning them into a pro. My point is why can't Vancouver or Toronto take players like REB or Stefan Vukovic and give them the professional experience they need to become senior CMNT players instead of having to rely upon European clubs to give them an opportunity at the professional level?

[canucklefan]

Furthermore in my view our players in Europe develop in different systems of play making it difficult when they all come together in our MNT, we don't quite blend together to form a more cohesive team.

If the MNT had 15 - 20 players getting regular playing time in MLS or in Europe, I'd agree with you that cohesiveness. But also I think part of lack of cohesiveness is related to coaches we had in the recent years.

[tmcmurph]

If the MNT had 15 - 20 players getting regular playing time in MLS or in Europe, I'd agree with you that cohesiveness. But also I think part of lack of cohesiveness is related to coaches we had in the recent years.

True and we are a long way from Spain where every team you watch at Euros and elsewhere (U17, U19, U23) plays exactly the same style. For a start I'd be happy with our players having better skills on the ball. From there we need to decide what style of play and get the coaches at all levels to play that style and teach the formation roles to the players from a young age. We've go a ways to go.

[madmonte]

But that's why we always cried out that we need more friendlies, right? On the bright side, we ARE getting them. If we are losing them, oh well, at least we have more chances to try and develop that cohesiveness.

[tmcmurph]

Henry, Morgan and REB get another notch each with Jonathan Osorio getting his first MNT action on the field. Can someone confirm how long Osorio was in the TFC academy? I'm getting different data depending on the site. He is listed as 2012 for both TFCA and SC Toronto. Was he loaned out? Played both?

In any case he is the type of player we need in our MNT for the future.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Can someone confirm how long Osorio was in the TFC academy? I'm getting different data depending on the site. He is listed as 2012 for both TFCA and SC Toronto. Was he loaned out? Played both?

In any case he is the type of player we need in our MNT for the future.

There is an interview on TFC site from last week that talks about this. Osorio played with SC Toronto last year in the CSL (won rookie of year) and after the season ended he was approached by TFC and started training with them. I think that was October or November of 2012. Technically I think he is a HGP in MLS because he had a certain amount of training sessions with TFC but for the purpose of this list I don't know if you can really say he was developed by TFC.

[VWFC]

Ya that would be a stretch to put Osario for TFC.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

When do we start the thread "Contributions to the MNT by Nacional's academy"?

Currently we have Osorio and Cavallini who have been capped. And Cristian Cavallini, Lucas Scorzafave, Anthony Osorio and Jerome Smith are currently with Nacional.

[tmcmurph]

Thanks GCRO that makes more sense. Osorio is off the TFC list then. Funny but Nacional seems to be the new Cottbus for us these days. We'll take it as we need all the help we can get.

[tmcmurph]

Updated the list. TFC and the Caps get closer and we are still waiting for the Impact to get a player on the list. It would be funny if they will make it up with one single quality player who will go on to break Stalteri's record for games. I'm sure their academy will be cranking them out any year now

Anyway it was a disappointing Gold Cup to say the least with no real breakthrough performances but interesting that Henry is now past Attakora. I'm sure we'll see more of Nana in the future.

[maccaliam]

How long was Aleman with TFC's academy? Would he not qualify for this list?