Contributions to MNT by our Academies

[shermanator]

It seems to me that Porter deserved a call to MNT because he did good with FC Edmonton: 47 games played - 12 goals scored. Thank you Edmonton.

And yet, Porter will most likely be out of a job shortly. He was lights out in 2011 but struggled last year with his consistency. Miller gave him an ultimatum on joining FC Edmonton, and then calls him out for his effort against Denmark:

http://the11.ca/2013/01/08/porter-gets-deadline-from-fce-sign-deal-or-we-move-on-without-you/

http://the11.ca/2013/01/28/hirschfeld-out-for-canada-u-s-match-miller-asks-porter-to-show-more-passion

[tmcmurph]

Philippe Davies is NO WAY a contribution from the Whitecaps to the CMNT. Is he an upgrade to the CMNT? No. Is he getting playing time in whatever First Division League? No. Davies never got minutes with the senior squad (in the MLS), that was too bad for development as a player, he didn’t get exposure and he ended in USL Pro.

It seems to me that Porter deserved a call to MNT because he did good with FC Edmonton: 47 games played - 12 goals scored. Thank you Edmonton.

Phil Davies was called up and played. He spent 2 years with the Whitecaps academy so he qualifies. He was good enough to get a call up and came and played for us. That counts. The academy that helped him get there was the Caps so he counts in their stats. Upgrade? If we are going by that standard then how do you judge that?

You do bring up an interesting point about the quality of players. I'm thinking that will sort itself out by adding in the number of call ups each player gets. Those with one would be less of a contribution than those with 10 or 20. Perhaps a point per call up? Hmmm.

As to Porter he was payed to play at a D2 level and chose to go that route. While FC Edmonton deserves credit for paying him they did not school him in their academy. I try to be fair by pointing out that Teibert also spent a year with TFC and if the kid Edmonton trained for 2 year who then went to the Caps ever makes it I will probably put him in both groups.

That also brings up another interesting point. It isn't academy but it is development especially for the 18-22 year olds. If we go by that then also credit would have to go to CIS/NCAA universities, PDL teams etc. I think I'll leave Porter as is.

Thanks

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Players don't stop developing at age 18 and they need more than a few years in a pro academy. They need to first team minutes. You can't really put some of these guys forward as a success to the MLS academies as they had to go overseas or to lower tier teams in North America to get that first team experience. The MLS teams are not providing what they need to become pro footballers. The CMNT needs professional footballers and these academies are just creating youth players and not giving them the experience they need to get to the next level.

Someone mentioned on CSN that two TFCA players (Brandon John and Trey Crosby) signed in Germany with FC Erzgebirge Aue. Vancouver academy player Daniel Stanese has apparently signed with FC Nurnberg. If these players get capped for the national team it's not going to be based on what Toronto or Vancouver did for them.

EDIT

and I was just looking at Brandon John's twitter and noticed he had retweeted this:

Jason deVos ‏@jasondevos

When players do not play regular club football, it is impossible for them to play at the international level. #canMNT

Retweeted by Brandon John

[youllneverwalkalone]

Well, I guess we should just pack it in and say fcuk it then.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Well, I guess we should just pack it in and say fcuk it then.

No that is not what I am saying. As the other thread pointed (how do our young players rank...), our youth players are lacking the first team experience that players from other CONCACAF nations are getting from their domestic teams. It's great to have these academy but not giving them first team opportunities isn't going to benefit the CMNT and is why 'years in an MLS academy' isn't a great indicator of what the MLS teams are doing for the CMNT.

[tmcmurph]

The CMNT needs professional footballers and these academies are just creating youth players and not giving them the experience they need to get to the next level.

Someone mentioned on CSN that two TFCA players (Brandon John and Trey Crosby) signed in Germany with FC Erzgebirge Aue. Vancouver academy player Daniel Stanese has apparently signed with FC Nurnberg. If these players get capped for the national team it's not going to be based on what Toronto or Vancouver did for them.

The MLS teams are running academies that get players to a certain point (MLS, D2, B2, etc). How did they get tryouts with these other teams? They were skilled. How did they get skilled? They were part of the academy system. They have been given as much experience as the clubs can currently provide. If the players want to try European lower leagues to get playing time then great. More power to them and I hope they do make it. But to discount the fact that their academy training that got them that chance (in a large part) is just wrong.

Yes if any of these players ever make it to the MNT then the academy system they came up through deserves credit.

The coaches of the MLS teams have one and only one criteria determining if they will be fired or kept on. Wins in MLS. That is it. If they see an academy player as being a help to them holding their job they will play them. You can not seriously expect any pro coach to play someone for any other reason than they can get the job done.

Of course I hope that the academy players get a shot at first team minutes, reserve matches, loan outs to NASL/USL sides. That isn't there yet but MLS is starting to address it.

[Admin]

It takes a village people. It takes a village

[canucklefan]

The MLS teams are running academies that get players to a certain point (MLS, D2, B2, etc). How did they get tryouts with these other teams? They were skilled. How did they get skilled? They were part of the academy system. They have been given as much experience as the clubs can currently provide. If the players want to try European lower leagues to get playing time then great. More power to them and I hope they do make it. But to discount the fact that their academy training that got them that chance (in a large part) is just wrong.

Yes if any of these players ever make it to the MNT then the academy system they came up through deserves credit.

The coaches of the MLS teams have one and only one criteria determining if they will be fired or kept on. Wins in MLS. That is it. If they see an academy player as being a help to them holding their job they will play them. You can not seriously expect any pro coach to play someone for any other reason than they can get the job done.

Of course I hope that the academy players get a shot at first team minutes, reserve matches, loan outs to NASL/USL sides. That isn't there yet but MLS is starting to address it.

Not all the coaches are like Rennie. There are coaches that like to work with young players. Also, it seems to me that you created this thread because you were frustrated of the criticism of your own club, so this thread gives some credit to your club.

[tmcmurph]

Not all the coaches are like Rennie. There are coaches that like to work with young players. Also, it seems to me that you created this thread because you were frustrated of the criticism of your own club, so this thread gives some credit to your club.

No I started the thread because of the myopic "MLS first team minutes" that some others obsessively cite. There are many stages to development and without quality academies you will get even fewer players ready for a shot at first team minutes. Getting first team minutes is the end of a decade or more training and playing at increasingly difficult levels.

Academy training gives them, a shot. That is all. If they aren't better, not as good as, but clearly better than the other players then they won't get to the next level. Yes the Caps deserve credit for helping to develop a lot of players with their academy. So do TFC and Montreal. It is a crucial step in development.

A lot of people on this forum seem to think that Canadian players should be played because in their opinion they are as good as others (usually American NCAA draftees). The only opinion that matters is that of the coach. They'll play someone when they think it will help them keep their job.

In a salary capped league like MLS you will always lose a lot of your academy players to Europe when they turn 18. Should the MLS clubs not get credit for helping to develop those players? Some players are getting first team Bundesliga 2 minutes but they don't count because of the myopic focus on "MLS first team minutes". How will having players in B2 and elsewhere not help our MNT?

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

It is not 'MLS first team minutes' it is 'first team minutes' period. Yes, youth development is important but without any first team minutes these players will never be good enough to play for the CMNT. Youth development is only half of it. I think it is hard to give all the credit to someone who does half of the the job. Kyle Porter didn't get called up because he spent two years with the Vancouver academy over three years ago. He was called up because he was playing first team minutes with Edmonton.

[canucklefan]

Should the MLS clubs not get credit for helping to develop those players? Some players are getting first team Bundesliga 2 minutes but they don't count because of the myopic focus on "MLS first team minutes". How will having players in B2 and elsewhere not help our MNT?

All the credit to the Whitecaps for developping Davies, a USL PRO level player and now member of the CMNT. Great contribution!! I feel confident now with our chances to qualify for the 2018 WC!

[tmcmurph]

All the credit to the Whitecaps for developping Davies, a USL PRO level player and now member of the CMNT. Great contribution!! I feel confident now with our chances to qualify for the 2018 WC!

I've already made adjustments for that. The list of the first page shows number of call ups and each academy getting one point per call up. Once a player is capped each extra call up is indicative of their quality. Those with 1 obviously didn't work out as well as those with 11.

If you don't like my criteria and just want to heap negative comments when I've already acknowledged the issue you raised please feel free to start your own thread with your own criteria. There is already one measuring "MLS first team minutes".

[tmcmurph]

It is not 'MLS first team minutes' it is 'first team minutes' period. Yes, youth development is important but without any first team minutes these players will never be good enough to play for the CMNT. Youth development is only half of it. I think it is hard to give all the credit to someone who does half of the the job. Kyle Porter didn't get called up because he spent two years with the Vancouver academy over three years ago. He was called up because he was playing first team minutes with Edmonton.

I agree it is only half of it but without academy how many will get first team minutes anywhere? Does it really matter to our MNT if a player gets their first team minutes in MLS, NASL, League 1, Championship or Bundesliga 2?

A lot of times it is better for a player to leave. Straith is an excellent example. Would anyone start him ahead of YP Lee?

[narduch]

The problem starts with the Canadian quota, which is artificially set so low that it is nearly irrelevant. If anything it serves more as a deterrent than an incentive to develop your own players. It is set at 3, which is an absolute joke.

With the quota set so low, I wonder how seriously the 3 MLS teams even really care about their academies. Are they more interested in the money Adidas throws at them to run an Academy? Its still probably cheaper to find players through other means.

We are 7 years into the MLS in Canada experiment (I realize Montreal and Vancouver haven't been there as long). Can we honestly say we are happy with the early returns, from a Canadian player development perspective?

[tmcmurph]

The problem starts with the Canadian quota, which is artificially set so low that it is nearly irrelevant. If anything it serves more as a deterrent than an incentive to develop your own players. It is set at 3, which is an absolute joke.

With the quota set so low, I wonder how seriously the 3 MLS teams even really care about their academies. Are they more interested in the money Adidas throws at them to run an Academy? Its still probably cheaper to find players through other means.

We are 7 years into the MLS in Canada experiment (I realize Montreal and Vancouver haven't been there as long). Can we honestly say we are happy with the early returns, from a Canadian player development perspective?

Good points. I'm sure the MLS clubs looked at what happened to TFC in their first year and went NNNNOOOOOOO. 3 out of 30 is low but it is a starting point. It also doesn't help the MNT that the definition of Canadian is not "MNT eligible" but rather some citizenship thing.

The clubs care because there are advantages in a salary capped league for homegrown players. The huge problem for the MLS clubs is that the best Canadians are beyond their budgets. They even lose some of the best, most promising players to Europe even though they develop them for years.

8 years into MLS for TFC, 3 for Whitecaps, and 2 for Montreal but 5-7-1 for their academies. The best so far seems to be Straith with 11 call ups and mostly solid play. The clubs were saying it would take 5-6 years before results would show and some others like Tony Waiters think longer is more realistic. I'm hoping the clubs are right but I've been around long enough to value Tony's opinion.

[Lord Bob]

Academy players that were capped by MNT are no way a “contribution” to the CMNT. If the player has playing time in his club with the senior squad, not only he gets exposure, he’ll also continue his development.

Philippe Davies is NO WAY a contribution from the Whitecaps to the CMNT. Is he an upgrade to the CMNT? No. Is he getting playing time in whatever First Division League? No. Davies never got minutes with the senior squad (in the MLS), that was too bad for development as a player, he didn’t get exposure and he ended in USL Pro.

I like how you put the (in the MLS) there. "Sure, they trained him full-tune for years, played him regularly in a fully professional league when he was 19, gave him playing time in USL PDL and MLS Reserves during 2012 which wasn't what he deserved but also wasn't nothing, and were thoroughly responsible both financially and otherwise for his development as a player since he was 16, but you call that a contribution?!"

EDIT: somewhat overegged my pudding in one phrase

[Yohan]

The problem starts with the Canadian quota, which is artificially set so low that it is nearly irrelevant. If anything it serves more as a deterrent than an incentive to develop your own players. It is set at 3, which is an absolute joke.

With the quota set so low, I wonder how seriously the 3 MLS teams even really care about their academies. Are they more interested in the money Adidas throws at them to run an Academy? Its still probably cheaper to find players through other means.

We are 7 years into the MLS in Canada experiment (I realize Montreal and Vancouver haven't been there as long). Can we honestly say we are happy with the early returns, from a Canadian player development perspective?

honestly, I think you'd be happy if Canadian teams are forced to play guys like Canizalez, Reda or Braz. TFC season 1. ugh

[ag futbol]

honestly, I think you'd be happy if Canadian teams are forced to play guys like Canizalez, Reda or Braz. TFC season 1. ugh

I know we have had this conversation several times, but the way I look at it is you can increase the quota without having any material impact on your roster or who you play. I also get the POV that the guys on the back-end of MLS rosters generally don't develop anyway. But considering we will have back-end players who don't impact anything, in my opinion they should probably be Canadian instead of American. Looks at it this way, if you saw $5 on the ground would you pick it up? It might not pay the rent or solve all your problems but it's still got value.

Narduck is right in the sense that teams need some sort of incentive to develop Canadian players, because in the end it's about building an expertise. No incentives? No need to build the capability. No capability? More Marco Reda and Adam Braz.

Our players ability is only half the equation. The coaches ability to harness their talent is the other half. There's room for improvement on both sides. It's funny that something as stereotypical as nationality seems to give football people mental blocks. But you see it all the time, all over the world. Somebody has a good WC run or gets a star player in a league, and all of a sudden everybody's eyes focus in on the same market. Our youth players still have a way to go maturity wise, that's pretty clear judging by the Jonathan Lao article and the recent Milos Kocic interview. Guys aren't quite digesting the full magnitude of the opportunity they've been handed, or understand the fierce level of competition it takes to make it to the next level.

[narduch]

honestly, I think you'd be happy if Canadian teams are forced to play guys like Canizalez, Reda or Braz. TFC season 1. ugh

Nice job with the hyperbole. That was 7 years ago now. We were suppose to build from that, not regress.

And besides, are we really going to judge how good Canadian players are based on the inept and corrupt Mo Johnston's ability as a manager?

My point is that the clubs have very little incentive to improve on the Canadian content of their teams.

[Yohan]

Nice job with the hyperbole. That was 7 years ago now. We were suppose to build from that, not regress.

And besides, are we really going to judge how good Canadian players are based on the inept and corrupt Mo Johnston's ability as a manager?

My point is that the clubs have very little incentive to improve on the Canadian content of their teams.

You really can't blame Mo for season 1 Canadian content because he was forced to scrap the bottom of the barrel for any Canadian player who can kick the ball due to MLS roster rules pretty much on short notice.

Simplest way for CSA to encourage Canadian MLS teams to up the Canadian content is to chance the rules for V Cup. Min 3 players on starting lineup.

[canucklefan]

Simplest way for CSA to encourage Canadian MLS teams to up the Canadian content is to chance the rules for V Cup. Min 3 players on starting lineup.

That's not enough.

[Keegan]

That's not enough.

Agreed, make it a minimum of 5 Canadians in a starting XI for V Cup matches.. teams will have to have rosters with 6+ Canadians if they have any aspirations of playing continental footy. And let's be honest 6+ Canadians really isn't that much on each team, that'll lead us to 18+ Canadians playing for 3 MLS teams.

[maccaliam]

5 Canadians in the starting line-up would mean a minimum of 8 Canadians on each game day roster. I'm all for raising the bar, but perhaps a minimum of 5-6 Canadians out of the game day 18, with a minimum of 3 on the pitch is a bit more realistic at this time. Bobby L's head would probably explode if they introduced my quota system, I can't imagine what would happen if your quota system got the go ahead.

[tmcmurph]

Added one more new one, Matt Stinson, and upped the count for some others in a very good game last night against the USA.

[Yohan]

Agreed, make it a minimum of 5 Canadians in a starting XI for V Cup matches.. teams will have to have rosters with 6+ Canadians if they have any aspirations of playing continental footy. And let's be honest 6+ Canadians really isn't that much on each team, that'll lead us to 18+ Canadians playing for 3 MLS teams.

let's be realistic here. do you really think the 3 MLS teams will accept 5 Canadians starting in a V Cup game? they'd scream murder, and CSA don't have the balls to upset MLSE/Saputo/Kerfoot and co.