Contributions to MNT by our Academies

[Keegan]

The way I look at it is this. The CSA has an obligation to develop Canadian talent, the Voyageurs Cup is the ONE AND ONLY pro competition they control. Through SIX matches I don't think it would be unreasonable to have a minimum number of Canadians in an XI, after all which players do we want going to represent CANADA in CONCACAF? If the Caps are going to play a roster of Americans and foreigners they may as well play in the US Open Cup and win one of the 4 US spots because they're using the games to develop that talent.

[Yohan]

The way I look at it is this. The CSA has an obligation to develop Canadian talent, the Voyageurs Cup is the ONE AND ONLY pro competition they control. Through SIX matches I don't think it would be unreasonable to have a minimum number of Canadians in an XI, after all which players do we want going to represent CANADA in CONCACAF? If the Caps are going to play a roster of Americans and foreigners they may as well play in the US Open Cup and win one of the 4 US spots because they're using the games to develop that talent.

don't get me wrong. I support increase in Canadian content in V Cup games. I just think it's more fair to do it gradually.

[tmcmurph]

let's be realistic here. do you really think the 3 MLS teams will accept 5 Canadians starting in a V Cup game? they'd scream murder, and CSA don't have the balls to upset MLSE/Saputo/Kerfoot and co.

I think they would love it. Look at it from a MLS coach's point of view. I have the domestic cup competition which is nice to win but I won't be fired if I do poorly in it. If I do poorly in MLS I will be fired for sure. You do want to win it but it is clearly secondary but if I don't field a strong team we'll be embarrassed 6-1 (again in one case).

But what if all the teams had to start 6 Canadians? Now I HAVE to play a bunch of reserve/residency players and rest my starters? And this won't put me at a disadvantage because the other teams have to do it as well? Watch them do the dance of joy!

[Lord Bob]

I think they would love it. Look at it from a MLS coach's point of view. I have the domestic cup competition which is nice to win but I won't be fired if I do poorly in it. If I do poorly in MLS I will be fired for sure. You do want to win it but it is clearly secondary but if I don't field a strong team we'll be embarrassed 6-1 (again in one case).

But what if all the teams had to start 6 Canadians? Now I HAVE to play a bunch of reserve/residency players and rest my starters? And this won't put me at a disadvantage because the other teams have to do it as well? Watch them do the dance of joy!

Yeah, all coaches love being told who to play, having limited roster selections, and improvising an attempt to win a trophy out of spare parts! Luckily, if the Voyageurs Cup was made even less relevant by an attempt to prevent teams from playing its best players, even fewer people would care about it anymore!

[tmcmurph]

Yeah, all coaches love being told who to play, having limited roster selections, and improvising an attempt to win a trophy out of spare parts! Luckily, if the Voyageurs Cup was made even less relevant by an attempt to prevent teams from playing its best players, even fewer people would care about it anymore!

That is a fan's view and you are a fan so that is understandable, but put yourself in their shoes for a minute. As long as they won't be humiliated and all the teams are bound by the same restrictions, I'm sure the coaches on all 3 would love to keep their starters rested for league play. All those things you see as negative they already have to deal with, to a smaller extent yes, but still they have to deal with it.

They already get told to have 3 Canadians on the roster, they will have to rotate players and generally start reserve players or burn out starters not to mention the usual injury problems. So now they can bring in 5 or 6 reserve or academy players and 5 or 6 regulars would be a problem? They would view that as making their MLS life easier. Hell they'd send an assistant coach to the away games if they thought could.

[Yohan]

Nice job with the hyperbole. That was 7 years ago now. We were suppose to build from that, not regress.

And besides, are we really going to judge how good Canadian players are based on the inept and corrupt Mo Johnston's ability as a manager?

My point is that the clubs have very little incentive to improve on the Canadian content of their teams.

You'd be happy to note that Kevin Payne is willing to lobby MLS to have Canadians treated as domestic.

Kevin Payne at The Soccer Show with Reed and Iarusci

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/SoccerShow/~3/ezdo5MfSt68/ss_20130131_223007--The-Soccer-Show---Thursday---January-31.mp3

http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/the_soccer_show/

Payne segment starts around 7:30 mark. The part I'm talking about starts around 35min mark

[narduch]

You'd be happy to note that Kevin Payne is willing to lobby MLS to have Canadians treated as domestic.

Kevin Payne at The Soccer Show with Reed and Iarusci

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/SoccerShow/~3/ezdo5MfSt68/ss_20130131_223007--The-Soccer-Show---Thursday---January-31.mp3

http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/the_soccer_show/

Payne segment starts around 7:30 mark. The part I'm talking about starts around 35min mark

That's awesome!

As a TFC fan, I like what I've seen so far, but this makes me respect the man even more.

If Canadians were treated fairly around the league, I wouldn't even care about quotas (would still like to have Canadians on my team though).

[rob.notenboom]

You'd be happy to note that Kevin Payne is willing to lobby MLS to have Canadians treated as domestic.

Kevin Payne at The Soccer Show with Reed and Iarusci

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/SoccerShow/~3/ezdo5MfSt68/ss_20130131_223007--The-Soccer-Show---Thursday---January-31.mp3

http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/the_soccer_show/

Payne segment starts around 7:30 mark. The part I'm talking about starts around 35min mark

I wonder if, because of Payne's long involvement in the league, his lobbying efforts might have a greater chance of bearing fruit. I certainly hope they do as the non-domestic status of Canadians in MLS is such a huge barrier.

[tmcmurph]

I wonder if, because of Payne's long involvement in the league, his lobbying efforts might have a greater chance of bearing fruit. I certainly hope they do as the non-domestic status of Canadians in MLS is such a huge barrier.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm sure hoping it wasn't just a statement to appease us Canadian fans. I'd be happy if the first 2 Canadians on any US based MLS team counted as domestics (our percent of the population). 30 spots on a team, 8 internationals, 22 domestics. We are 10% of the population so let the first 2 count as domestics. That would open up another 32 spots without our players having to get green cards.

[madmonte]

I'm really starting to like Kevin Payne more and more. Not everyone shares certain views, I understand that, but so far he seems to share a lot of similar views to myself and others on this forum board at least.

[tmcmurph]

REB was the only one making the field today from our MLS academies in the 2-1 loss to Japan.

This is turning into an interesting way to judge our academies over the next decade or so. If the majority of our MNT players are still getting youth development overseas instead of the MLS systems that will indicate one of two things. Either the MLS academies aren't good or the best players are going overseas at a very young age.

[ThiKu]

I would say REB is not from an MLS academy. He was cut prior to the MLS.

[canucklefan]

REB was the only one making the field today from our MLS academies in the 2-1 loss to Japan.

This is turning into an interesting way to judge our academies over the next decade or so. If the majority of our MNT players are still getting youth development overseas instead of the MLS systems that will indicate one of two things. Either the MLS academies aren't good or the best players are going overseas at a very young age.

I really hope the Whitecaps could make real impact players, we really need it. You can call REB a contribution from the Whitecaps but he is bencher in a B2 club and that doesn't make a contribution in my eyes.

[Admin]

i really hope the whitecaps could make real impact players

lol!

[tmcmurph]

ThiKu - Yes he is. He was in their residency program which predates MLS but got continued on and expaned when they went up a level. Same for Straith. Similar in the way that Nana was a TFC "academy" product. TFC didn't have an academy so their reserves became their defacto academy.

canucklefan - So being on a B2 team about to be promoted to B1 and getting playing time as a substitute doesn't make a contribution in your eyes? WTF? Have you seen Braunschweig's striker pool? 20 times on the field with 400+ minutes in close to 2 seasons. That is not shabby when you have Kumbela with 16 goals, Kruppke with 8 and the rest of the team with 18. Just no pleasing some people.

Did you guys even watch the game today? REB was one of the bright spots for us.

[jpg75]

Nana was not a TFC Academy product, we didn't have an academy when he broke in. REB was part of your USL club residency program and graduated to the first team before you joined MLS, therefore he is a USL academy product.

[canucklefan]

canucklefan - So being on a B2 team about to be promoted to B1 and getting playing time as a substitute doesn't make a contribution in your eyes? WTF? Have you seen Braunschweig's striker pool? 20 times on the field with 400+ minutes in close to 2 seasons. That is not shabby when you have Kumbela with 16 goals, Kruppke with 8 and the rest of the team with 18. Just no pleasing some people.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/randy-edwini-bonsu/profil/spieler_103605.html

This season, REB played a total of 134 minutes in B2. It's just ridiculous. Why do you think We don't make the Hex anymore?

I don't know if you are trying to argue for the sake of the Whitecaps. I hope it is the case, because if you really think 400 minutes in 2 seasons it's enough playing time to think we have the chance to make it to the WC, then you have serious problems understanding the game.

The sad part is REB is not the worst case, there are players playing in lower divisions than REB and also (and that's not news to the Voyageurs), players that were called recently and were without club.

Did you guys even watch the game today? REB was one of the bright spots for us.

I watched the game but I won't make conclusions based on a friendly. The team, the players should be evaluated on games that matters, Gold Cup games and WCQ games.

[RS]

Maybe I'm missing something, but where did tmcmurph say that REB's playing time (and level) was going to lead Canada to a World Cup?

[canucklefan]

He didn't mention it like that, but the way he describes REB's playing time is like it's some kind of achievement. 400 minutes in 2 seasons, it's less than 5 games of 90 minutes in 2 years.

[tmcmurph]

jpg75 - Of the 3 clubs that are currently in MLS only the Caps had an academy before they made the jump to MLS. So they Caps organization shouldn't get any credit for the players they helped develop, like Straith & REB, just because they started early? I know Nana wasn't in TFC's academy because they were late to start one but he was with their reserves and that was their defacto academy for years. As I've stated earlier in the thread TFC deserve credit for helping to develop him in their system. Maybe I'll change the title to "Contributions to MNT by our Academies". After all Edmonton has one and they are D2 but still deserve credit for developing players.

rudi - Thanks. I'm not. I am trying to gauge the effectiveness of our pro academies in getting players to the point where they get a shot. If the academies are good enough we should see less kids going overseas for training. They may go once they get to the 16-18 year level but by then, hopefully, they will have had several years in our academies honing their skills. Lots can go wrong after that but at least they got that far.

canucklefan - OMG where to begin. B2 is as good as MLS and the top half, where REB plays, is probably a bit better. He is training in a serious pro environment with serious competition amongst the 8 attackers for playing time. Given that their main duo, Kumbela & Kruppke, are guaranteed to start every game getting any playing time is a major accomplishment.

As to you your comment about recent players being called up not having teams or playing in very low divisions I've adjusted for that already by assigning one point per callup. Those that don't cut it will probably not get another callup and those that are solid will get more. Hence their contribution to the MNT pool is already adjusted for.

[jpg75]

jpg75 - Of the 3 clubs that are currently in MLS only the Caps had an academy before they made the jump to MLS. So they Caps organization shouldn't get any credit for the players they helped develop, like Straith & REB, just because they started early?

....Maybe I'll change the title to "Contributions to MNT by our Academies". After all Edmonton has one and they are D2 but still deserve credit for developing players.

I think you have answered your own question.

[tmcmurph]

I think you have answered your own question.

I'm trying to give credit where credit is due. It is a lot harder than I first thought it would be. From here on in I hope it will get a lot easier now that all 3 MLS and our lone wolf NASL (for now) team all have academies. To be honest when I came up with this I didn't even think of FCE as they have a lot less resources than the 3 MLS sides but they seem to be doing a great job. We need more of that so hopefully Ottawa will follow suit.

I don't seem to be able to change the title of the thread. If one of the mods has that power please change it to "Contributions to MNT by our Academies".

[jonovision]

Might not be too long until you can add Karl Ouimette under Montreal's column. Didn't look out of place today, save for one terrible clearance.

[ThiKu]

@TMC - You are wrong. There, I said it. We disagree completely. Nana is not from TFC Academy no matter how you paint it. REB is not from an MLS Academy no matter how you paint it. Whitecaps definitely deserve SOME credit for developing REB. At what age did he join, and at what age did he leave? I dunno. Came as a teen though right? Then when the team moved up they felt he wasn't good enough and dropped him. Let's not give the Whitecaps credit for cutting a dynamic player who is now on a better team in a better league getting more playing time than guys like Teibert, Clarke, and even Phil Davies. The Whitecaps fubar'd that move re: REB.

[tmcmurph]

ThiKu - I've got the thread title changed to reflect academies not just MLS academies. This isn't an exact science given the mishmash we've had for pro development academies in Canada but it's a start.

Nana we disagree on then. I feel TFC should get credit for helping his development. He was with TFC from 2007-2011 and spent the vast majority (all but 5 games) of the first 2 years in their reserves. It wasn't until August 2008 that he played for the first team. So that is almost 2 years in the reserves.

REB was with the Caps residency from 2008 to 2010 for 3 years. He bounced back and forth between the first team and the residency but spent the vast majority of his time in the residency program. We both agree that the Caps fubar'd that one. I have always said letting him go was a mistake because I felt he could be at least a MLS level player.

Like I said I hope it will get easier now that all 4 of our pro teams have academies and the boundries are clearer. In the past it was a lot murkier.