Contributions to MNT by our Academies

[tmcmurph]

Updated with the 05Feb2016 game against the USA. Welcome to the list Maxime Crépeau. With a performance like that I'm sure we'll be seeing more of him.

To answer some of the above questions. Mallan Roberts wasn't part of the FCE academy. He played for NAIT and signed with the FCE Reserves in 2012 at age 20. Similar situation to Wandrille Lefèvre who played with the youth side of Montreal Impact 2011-2013 but was 22-24 at that time.

Hanson Boakai has not played yet for our MNT. He has played for every level below it and I will add him to the list when he does as he was with FCE Academy 2011-2013.

[Dub Narcotic]

This is a great list to think about every time I'm forced to hear Duane Rollins and Kevin Laramee rattle on about the Whitecaps and Canadian players. The Impact have been absolutely atrocious at developing young players, both their own and the ones like Eric Miller that they picked up through the draft. Sigma's contribution is very impressive as well.

[Fussball_eh]

3 hours ago, tmcmurph said:

Updated with the 05Feb2016 game against the USA. Welcome to the list Maxime Crépeau. With a performance like that I'm sure we'll be seeing more of him.

To answer some of the above questions. Mallan Roberts wasn't part of the FCE academy. He played for NAIT and signed with the FCE Reserves in 2012 at age 20. Similar situation to Wandrille Lefèvre who played with the youth side of Montreal Impact 2011-2013 but was 22-24 at that time.

Hanson Boakai has not played yet for our MNT. He has played for every level below it and I will add him to the list when he does as he was with FCE Academy 2011-2013.

Would you be interested in adding that list to the google document and have your own Tab and manage it there? Would fit in greatly with the rest of the stuff. http://www.thevoyageurs.org/mother-of-all-canadians-abroad-list/

[Coramoor]

4 hours ago, Fussball_eh said:

Would you be interested in adding that list to the google document and have your own Tab and manage it there? Would fit in greatly with the rest of the stuff. http://www.thevoyageurs.org/mother-of-all-canadians-abroad-list/

please do this, it'd be fantastic to have all this information in one place

[tmcmurph]

8 hours ago, Fussball_eh said:

Would you be interested in adding that list to the google document and have your own Tab and manage it there? Would fit in greatly with the rest of the stuff. http://www.thevoyageurs.org/mother-of-all-canadians-abroad-list/

I will do that on my next off work day (Wed). I didn't know about that. Do I need any login rights etc?

Thanks

[tmcmurph]

8 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

This is a great list to think about every time I'm forced to hear Duane Rollins and Kevin Laramee rattle on about the Whitecaps and Canadian players. The Impact have been absolutely atrocious at developing young players, both their own and the ones like Eric Miller that they picked up through the draft. Sigma's contribution is very impressive as well.

Several things have made the list interesting for me. First I thought MLS and NASL would be it. I didn't foresee SigmaFC and the fantastic job they've done. Did not see that one coming at all. Very impressive. Goes to show the value of highly skilled youth development coaches and keeping players for the entire U12-U20 range. 

To be fair to Montreal they got into the academy game very late. They are only 3-4 years into it depending on where you place the start date. The fact that they now have a good academy and are committed to developing youth players means it is only a matter of time before they start to have stream of players coming to the MNT.

The other thing I've noticed is that if you take out the top player for each academy it levels out pretty much. No Straith, Henry, Bekker or Ouimette and it is pretty even. So it appears that each academy can produce one or two MNT calibre players every 7 or so years. Hopefully that will pick up.

[Grizzly]

7 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

This is a great list to think about every time I'm forced to hear Duane Rollins and Kevin Laramee rattle on about the Whitecaps and Canadian players. The Impact have been absolutely atrocious at developing young players, both their own and the ones like Eric Miller that they picked up through the draft. Sigma's contribution is very impressive as well.

The Whitecaps have been criticized for what they have done since they joined MLS. Everyone recognizes they had the best academy when they were in NASL but they seemed to go backwards in development after joining MLS. If you take away the guys who were developed during the NASL years they only have 7 points. Arguably one could include Teibert who was in the Academy in the NASL years and joined the first team when they joined MLS but even then it only puts them to 24.  And even with the NASL guys, Straith and Porter's development owes a lot more to being in the Energie Cottbus program than to the Caps program and that counts for 40 of their 80 points. The Caps did arrange the players going to Energie Cottbus so maybe they still deserve credit but one can't really say the players got to where they did because of the quality of the Caps academy. I think the criticism of the Caps development of young players since joining MLS has been justified but to be fair a lot of that was during the Rennie years, it seems Robinson is putting more emphasis on youth and if things continue as they have recently I think they will lose the "Caps hate Canada" tag (though it may still live on here on the forum as a good joke).

As for the other two MLS teams, one could have expected TFC to produce more in the number of years they have had but I don't think it is any secret that the whole team has been run poorly. They seem to have started to turn things around at the first team level so it remains to be seen if that translates to the Academy as well. I think the Impact academy is where one could expect given their short existence. If there is a criticism to be leveled at the Impact it is not so much the current academy but the fact that it took them so long to start a true academy program and that unlike the Caps they did not have a good development system in NASL/USL.

[Coramoor]

how do you determine players who play for different academies? if Reid makes the national team and he does so in part by playing for TFCA/II or somewhere in Europe, would ANB get the credit or someone else?

[tmcmurph]

I wouldn't say they went backwards in development as much as there was a huge gap between where most of the academy players were and the higher level of MLS compared to NASL. Without that USL team a lot were left floundering in no man's land. Not good enough for the first team but no other options for lots of playing time needed to develop. A true catch-22 if there ever was one. The loss of Thomas Niendorf was a huge blow that took them several years to recover from. 

Rennie was coach from 2011-2013. The academy was started in 2007 so it was only 4-6 years old. In that time Sam Adekugbe was brought on at the end of the season. The rest were not ready yet. Robbo has the luxury of a steady stream of players coming up and a USL team to verify their abilities in before exposing them to MLS. Much better situation.

[Dub Narcotic]

@tfcmurph you have it right. It's hard to tell cause and effect with the Fisk, Alderson and Clarke generation that didn't make it at the 'caps. Were they causalities of the big jump in quality from NASL to MLS and the then-lack of the USL team or were they not a particularly special generation of players to begin with? Also, Rennie actually played Teibert more than Carl Robinson has.

In any case, the 'caps also have a significant chunk of the best prospects right now (Zanatta, Bustos, Froese, Adekugbe, Chung,  Davis, etc) and they are the best run club in Canada so they will continue to be on top of this leaderboard for a long time.

[shermanator]

In what world did Martin Rennie play Teibert more than Carl Robinson has? I'm curious to see how you spin the numbers....

 

[Dub Narcotic]

11 minutes ago, shermanator said:

In what world did Martin Rennie play Teibert more than Carl Robinson has? I'm curious to see how you spin the numbers....

 

Why don't you post the numbers instead of making some dumb antagonistic comment? In 2013 Teibert started as a winger in a 4-3-3 under Rennie, racking up more starts and minutes than he did under Robinson last year. Now in 2014 Robinson played Teibert a lot but he clearly no longer sees him as a starter and he will not play much this year unless someone gets injured.

[El Hombre]

I find this narrative about how big the jump is between NASL and MLS pretty interesting.  Especially when you consider guys that came from NASL like Matt Watson and Jun Marques Davidson (and to some extent, Jonathan Leathers) who played some pretty significant minutes with VWFC and have since gone back to NASL.

[shermanator]

7 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

Why don't you post the numbers instead of making some dumb antagonistic comment? In 2013 Teibert started as a winger in a 4-3-3 under Rennie, racking up more starts and minutes than he did under Robinson last year. Now in 2014 Robinson played Teibert a lot but he clearly no longer sees him as a starter and he will not play much this year unless someone gets injured.

You're cherry picking your facts here. Yes, in 2015 Teibert received less starts and played less minutes under Robinson than he received under Rennie in 2013. However, you casually ignore the year in which Teibert played all of 116 minutes under Rennie, and simply dismiss the year where he received more starts (22) and more minutes (1969) than the entirety of his time under Rennie. Now, I don't necessarily disagree with you in that Teibert will be in tough to receive playing time in 2016 with Koffie and Laba still in the mix, and the Caps being high on Flores, but to say that Teibert has played more under Rennie than he did under Robinson is flat out wrong.

So, you want numbers? Here's some simple math for you:

37 (the number of starts made by Teibert in 2014 and 2015 in the MLS regular season under Teibert) > 20 (the number of starts made by Teibert in 2012 and 2013 in the MLS regular season under Rennie) 

3314 > 1893 (the number of minutes made by Teibert in 2012 and 2013 in the MLS regular season under Rennie) 

To take this back to your original argument about the "Whitecaps hate Canada" sentiment. Let's be honest here, the "Whitecaps hate Canada" sentiment was rightfully earned when they entered MLS, has now turned into somewhat of a meme, but really it is really a part of a larger problem with our club academies. NONE of the MLS clubs are developing Canadian talent at a rate that will help this national team in the long run, and the same goes for NASL clubs. In the 27 combined years these academies have been around, they've produced all of ONE consistent starter on the senior squad - Adam Straith. (I'm using the start dates of the current set ups - TFC in 2008, VWFC in 2009, IMFC in 2010, FCE in 2012, OFFC in 2014). Sure, there have been some close to breaking through as every game starters (Henry, Teibert, Osorio, Ouimette), but other than Straith, none of them have. The rise in talent on the senior team has not come through anything these academies have done. (unless you want to consider the Lefevre addition, but to me he is just a depth piece) We keep hearing better talent will by produced by these academies, but, how much longer do we have to wait? 

That's not just a Whitecaps problem. It's a TFC problem. It's an Impact problem. It's an FC Edmonton problem. And it's a Fury problem. Only when we start seeing these 5 clubs produce talent that can actually make a difference in the games that matter, will the sentiment that "XYZ hates Canada" will go away.

[TRM]

23 hours ago, Coramoor said:

how do you determine players who play for different academies? if Reid makes the national team and he does so in part by playing for TFCA/II or somewhere in Europe, would ANB get the credit or someone else?

That was a tough one and I gave it some thought and decided the minimum would be 2+ years with the youth academy (U12-U20) for various reasons. Most players move between youth systems a lot in their U12 to U20 development. Until a player actually gets on the field for the MNT I don't think too much about it.

First even if a player goes to Europe after 2+ years the case can be made that they developed at the academy enough to get that shot. Yes Cottbus could get some credit for Straith but would he have had the chance to go there if he hadn't developed in the Caps system?

Second I am trying to gauge the effectiveness of the various youth development systems not the 20+ development. The 20+ development is very crucial but maybe someone else can take on that one. It is beyond the scope of this simple list.

Some like Teibert were in TFC for a year but then moved to Vancouver. That makes it difficult. I decided to go with the one they spent the majority of the time at. Others like Larin spent 7 years in the SigmaFC system which makes it very easy. I wish all our youth had that level of development and stability.

Some have joked (half joked?) that I should include Nacional in Uruguay as they have developed talent for us. I decided to focus on Canadian academies.

Then you have the special case of Henry who was signed by TFC in 2008 before they had their academy. In those days their reserve team played in the CSL and was their defacto development system at TFC so I decided to include him. I use Wikipedia (with all its flaws) as the source for most info and they list him as "TFC Academy 2008-2010".

It is all kind of murky and convoluted but I try to be fair as best I can with the info available. I hope that explains it.

PS. In the case of Adonijah Reid it is hard to find info on how long he was with each academy.

[nolbertos]

1 hour ago, shermanator said:

NONE of the MLS clubs are developing Canadian talent at a rate that will help this national team in the long run, and the same goes for NASL clubs. In the 27 combined years these academies have been around, they've produced all of ONE consistent starter on the senior squad - Adam Straith. (I'm using the start dates of the current set ups - TFC in 2008, VWFC in 2009, IMFC in 2010, FCE in 2012, OFFC in 2014). Sure, there have been some close to breaking through as every game starters (Henry, Teibert, Osorio, Ouimette), but other than Straith, none of them have. The rise in talent on the senior team has not come through anything these academies have done. (unless you want to consider the Lefevre addition, but to me he is just a depth piece) We keep hearing better talent will by produced by these academies, but, how much longer do we have to wait? 

That's not just a Whitecaps problem. It's a TFC problem. It's an Impact problem. It's an FC Edmonton problem. And it's a Fury problem. Only when we start seeing these 5 clubs produce talent that can actually make a difference in the games that matter, will the sentiment that "XYZ hates Canada" will go away.

I beg to differ on that remark.  Over the last 30 years that I've been closely following Canadian futbol, the whitecaps literally were the only club having any type of youth system (or archaic academy structure) and keeping the kids interested in futbol at an early age.  The only reason the Canadian squad was strong in the early 80's and 90's were the remnants of the NASL and CSL players, which in those times, the academy system wasn't even implemented, it was mostly based on talent and getting first team minutes on the teams, but Canada had 8-10 teams to get more futbol players.  We kept relying on the old guard to get us through and after the 2000 Gold Cup generation retired, all the Canadian players nowadays aren't even skill wise enough to be considered World Cup calibre to qualify outta CONCACAF, because they are from the generation that was born without a Soccer league and only got through the professional ranks by playing semi-pro beer leagues.  The generation that is born after 2010ish, will be the generation of Canadian soccer fans that will be through the academy from 5 years old and have full availability to join the MLS ranks.  I've said it before, but by 2020, the MLS academies will be churning out quality players that will be MLS ready or Europe bound.  The CSA is to blame for not trying to keep the old CSL alive or even talk to the CFL in the 1990's for seeking out a league.  You can't fault the Whitecaps for not producing quality players now, as they didn't have a full on pyramid until now.  So far, the MLS clubs have produced some good players, and will soon pump out more over time that will help the national team in the long run. 

[tmcmurph]

15 hours ago, El Hombre said:

I find this narrative about how big the jump is between NASL and MLS pretty interesting.  Especially when you consider guys that came from NASL like Matt Watson and Jun Marques Davidson (and to some extent, Jonathan Leathers) who played some pretty significant minutes with VWFC and have since gone back to NASL.

As have most of the Canadian players who came up with the D2 team. The only 2 left on the Caps from D2 days are Gersh & Russ. That's it. I don't know of any other D2 players who are in MLS. How many Impact D2 players are still with the team? It is a big jump that gets misjudged badly by most expansion teams. The Caps were no exception to that rule. Mistakes were made, no doubt about it.

The minutes played by D2 players was primarily in the first season which was a total disaster and showed how big a difference there is. The second season was the first year Rennie was there and he was bringing in some Railhawks They didn't do much better and are playing D2 now (if they are still playing).

Go through the list of teams that have gone from D2 to MLS and see how long the D2 players last. Not many and not for long. Whether you want to face it or not there is a big gap in player quality between the 2 levels.

[DigzTFC]

The best producing academy is Sigma IMO.  Bekker, Larin, Laryea, Welshman.

I'm starting to believe that sending players to the NCAA maybe a better idea than sending them to USL Pro for MLS purposes.  Even though the Super Draft is losing relevance, it still hypes up players and showcases them to american teams.  If you're an academy kid, it seems that if you don't make the first team you have to find your way in europe because no other MLS team gives you a chance.

I'm really worried that Jordan Hamilton will never make it to the first team.  He should move to Europe before he's too old for them to consider a prospect.

[shermanator]

 

35 minutes ago, DigzTFC said:

The best producing academy is Sigma IMO.  Bekker, Larin, Laryea, Welshman.

I'm starting to believe that sending players to the NCAA maybe a better idea than sending them to USL Pro for MLS purposes.  Even though the Super Draft is losing relevance, it still hypes up players and showcases them to american teams.  If you're an academy kid, it seems that if you don't make the first team you have to find your way in europe because no other MLS team gives you a chance.

I'm really worried that Jordan Hamilton will never make it to the first team.  He should move to Europe before he's too old for them to consider a prospect.

Callum Irving can be seen as the counterpoint tot his argument. Leaves VWFC to play for Kentucky, by the end of his college career was considered the 2nd-3rd best GK available. Not drafted.

[DigzTFC]

1 minute ago, shermanator said:

 

Callum Irving can be seen as the counterpoint tot his argument. Leaves VWFC to play for Kentucky, by the end of his college career was considered the 2nd-3rd best GK available. Not drafted.

Fair point.  There will be examples of both.  Can you think of a Canadian academy player that was signed by another MLS team without MLS experience? All I can come up with is Josh Janniere

[shermanator]

3 minutes ago, DigzTFC said:

Fair point.  There will be examples of both.  Can you think of a Canadian academy player that was signed by another MLS team without MLS experience? All I can come up with is Josh Janniere

Not technically Canadian, but Emery Welshman is the only one I can think of.

[DigzTFC]

It's a pretty small group.  That's why I think prospects should go to NCAA if they won't make the first team in 2-4 years.  But by 2018, it may not matter with the CPL.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, DigzTFC said:

The best producing academy is Sigma IMO.  Bekker, Larin, Laryea, Welshman.

I'm starting to believe that sending players to the NCAA maybe a better idea than sending them to USL Pro for MLS purposes.  Even though the Super Draft is losing relevance, it still hypes up players and showcases them to american teams.  If you're an academy kid, it seems that if you don't make the first team you have to find your way in europe because no other MLS team gives you a chance.

I'm really worried that Jordan Hamilton will never make it to the first team.  He should move to Europe before he's too old for them to consider a prospect.

At 25 and 24, Bekker and Welshman are no closer to solidifying an MLS spot than much younger 'Caps Kianz Froese, Marco Bustos and Sam Adekugbe. Laryea has never played a professional game. No disrespect to Sigma, I think they're doing a tremendous job, but I really don't think these examples prove that they're the best academy in the country.

[DigzTFC]

Okay, let's see how Laryea does.  I guess Larin's rookie of the year campaign doesn't sway the discussion.

[Coramoor]

2 hours ago, DigzTFC said:

The best producing academy is Sigma IMO.  Bekker, Larin, Laryea, Welshman.

I'm starting to believe that sending players to the NCAA maybe a better idea than sending them to USL Pro for MLS purposes.  Even though the Super Draft is losing relevance, it still hypes up players and showcases them to american teams.  If you're an academy kid, it seems that if you don't make the first team you have to find your way in europe because no other MLS team gives you a chance.

I'm really worried that Jordan Hamilton will never make it to the first team.  He should move to Europe before he's too old for them to consider a prospect.

Hamilton will be barely 20 at the start of the season, he's very much still a prospect. He had a rough season last year but already in preseason he's looked a lot better from what reports have said.

 

14 hours ago, TRM said:

 

PS. In the case of Adonijah Reid it is hard to find info on how long he was with each academy.

Based on press releases I've seen from them touting him going on trial in France, I'd guess at least 2 years with ANB

 

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

At 25 and 24, Bekker and Welshman are no closer to solidifying an MLS spot than much younger 'Caps Kianz Froese, Marco Bustos and Sam Adekugbe. Laryea has never played a professional game. No disrespect to Sigma, I think they're doing a tremendous job, but I really don't think these examples prove that they're the best academy in the country.

Prior to his injury last season, Bekker had basically won a position in the 18, nobody else could say that among the group you listed.