Hamilton & Ottawa formally apply for NASL

[bettermirror]

http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/blog/post/589838

Great news. Especially with Edmonton joining, Victoria wanting to, and surely Calgary not far behind. I am guessing Winnipeg and/or Maritimes/Quebec will get in ASAP too.

[Richard]

Interesting that the two Ottawa groups and Hamilton are all seeking NASL franchises, not USL-1. What does that say about the future of USL-1?

[jpg75]

I'm not sure USL-1 will even exist next season.

[masster]

http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/comment/article/590380--growth-good-but-plan-first

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I'd be more confident about these NASL expansion franchises if the ownership groups had plans to build soccer specific stadia similar to that of the Charleston Battery with capacity in the 5 to 10k range. The track record of making things work in NFL, CFL or college football stadia is not good although the shared ownership in Hamilton definitely helps. Hope it works, however. The gap between MLS youth academy level and MLS needs to be filled with something more substantial than either PDL or local leagues like the CSL and PCSL. That could maybe viewed as the equivalent of class A baseball or the ECHL in development terms , while what's really needed is the equivalent of AAA and the AHL.

[Macksam]

I'd be more confident about these NASL expansion franchises if the ownership groups had plans to build soccer specific stadia similar to that of the Charleston Battery with capacity in the 5 to 10k range. The track record of making things work in NFL, CFL or college football stadia is not good although the shared ownership in Hamilton definitely helps. Hope it works, however. The gap between MLS youth academy level and MLS needs to be filled with something more substantial than either PDL or local leagues like the CSL and PCSL. That could maybe viewed as the equivalent of class A baseball or the ECHL in development terms , while what's really needed is the equivalent of AAA and the AHL.

I think as the CSL improves, it can be that stepping stone.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I can remember 20 years of talk of expanding from coast to coast and moving to the next level from the CSL and its predecessors. Anyone else remember some of the weird and wonderful claims that used to be made on Toronto Italia telecasts on Rogers TV 20 years ago? There was a diminutive guy with a beard, who Ben Knight sometimes used to interview at half-time, who would drone on and on about how the NSL having teams in Montreal was only the beginning for the NSL and how the NSL represented the future for Canadian soccer and would eventually spread from coast to coast. Used to think "pass me some of whatever he's been smoking" as I watched that and still find myself often thinking similar thoughts when I read CSL press releases in the present day. Stuff like Los Angeles Galaxy 1 Puerto Rico 4 (yes I know the Islanders are in the USL rather than the NASL camp) this season after knocking out TFC at the same stage last year is the reason why I see the NASL as soccer's answer to AAA baseball in the years ahead (i.e. a league very close in quality to MLS from which players can be expected to step right into the starting lineup at MLS level as the finished article in terms of being a pro player).

[TFCRegina]

I can remember 20 years of talk of expanding from coast to coast and moving to the next level from the CSL and its predecessors. Anyone else remember some of the weird and wonderful claims that used to be made on Toronto Italia telecasts on Rogers TV 20 years ago? There was a diminutive guy with a beard, who Ben Knight sometimes used to interview at half-time, who would drone on and on about how the NSL having teams in Montreal was only the beginning for the NSL and how the NSL represented the future for Canadian soccer and would eventually spread from coast to coast. Used to think "pass me some of whatever he's been smoking" as I watched that and still find myself often thinking similar thoughts when I read CSL press releases in the present day. Stuff like Los Angeles Galaxy 1 Puerto Rico 4 (yes I know the Islanders are in the USL rather than the NASL camp) this season after knocking out TFC at the same stage last year is the reason why I see the NASL as soccer's answer to AAA baseball in the years ahead (i.e. a league very close in quality to MLS from which players can be expected to step right into the starting lineup at MLS level as the finished article in terms of being a pro player).

If you have nothing nice to say about the CSL, don't say anything at all. Thanks.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

^^That's kind of the problem with Canadian soccer sometimes. People saying nothing negative when something completely delusional is proposed by the powers that be with the consequence being that the whole cycle of underachievement bordering on outright failure repeats itself decade after decade.

If we have 3 MLS teams and half-a-dozen or so NASL teams ten years from now (something like Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa and Quebec City) courtesy of USSF rather than CSA sanctioned leagues, Canadian pro soccer will be in really good shape and the issue that may lumber over the horizon at the FIFA level will be whether there should be a standalone Canadian Soccer League based on telling the MLS and NASL franchises to leave the USSF sanctioned leagues to form a new national league under the auspices of the CSA.

Getting a league like the NASL to work after many of the strongest USL-D1 markets (other than Rochester) have left for MLS is not going to be easy, however, so getting to that point could take a very long time.

[TFCRegina]

^^That's kind of the problem with Canadian soccer sometimes. People saying nothing negative when something completely delusional is proposed by the powers that be with the consequence being that the whole cycle of underachievement bordering on outright failure repeats itself decade after decade.

If we have 3 MLS teams and half-a-dozen or so NASL teams ten years from now (something like Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa and Quebec City) courtesy of USSF rather than CSA sanctioned leagues, Canadian pro soccer will be in really good shape and the issue that may lumber over the horizon at the FIFA level will be whether there should be a standalone Canadian Soccer League based on telling the MLS and NASL franchises to leave the USSF sanctioned leagues to form a new national league under the auspices of the CSA.

Getting a league like the NASL to work after many of the strongest USL-D1 markets (other than Rochester) have left for MLS is not going to be easy, however, so getting to that point could take a very long time.

Nobody is saying you need to not have the NASL/MLS. I'm not in favour of a national Canadian league. I'm in favour of a semi-professional third tier, which is exactly what the CSL is. There's nothing wrong with having a third tier.

In Europe, much of the development happens in the lower leagues and players make the jump up to higher divisions. We need that block in place between the professional and amateur levels.

Bashing the CSL for being a niche league which performs a niche role doesn't help Canadian soccer one bit. The CSL is what it is, but it's also where we have two academy programs and it has the potential to be a strong developmental league.

[Danny Boy]

Bashing the CSL for being a niche league which performs a niche role doesn't help Canadian soccer one bit. The CSL is what it is, but it's also where we have two academy programs and it has the potential to be a strong developmental league.

He's not bashing the CSL for being a niche league. But having aspirations of being a coast to coast league is kinda delusional when you have the NASL/USL-D2 to contend with. A strong third tier that's regional is way better than a weak third tier that's National. Let the CSL do it's thing, let the PCSL do it's thing.

[Cheeta]

^ Echo that.

I think the lack of support for 3rd tier footie by the paying public creates some very serious financing issues for the club operators. Semi-pro (and I mean small "s" semi) leagues could work on a regional basis and maybe be blended together at some level (playoffs blah, blah, blah) into a quasi-national league but that's as far as I can see that relationship going. Really though, to my eye regional elite/semi-pro leagues operating from coast to coast would have really significant benefits for the sport.

Still haven't seen anything "official" anywhere yet thought to be honest I haven't exactly been looking very hard. Interesting that in the cities mentioned we're sighting the old boogie-man of Canadian soccer, lack of suitable stadiums. There are people out there willing to subsidize the operations of a pro team, just not if they have to dole out $10M on a stadium to get the whole losing venture off the ground.

By the way, the new plastic pitches at Winnipeg Soccer Complex are awesome (if a bit of a heat island, youch). Wonder how much to build a proper grandstand?

[rico]

well i would think the csl would want to expand more in ontario and quebec

[Alex D]

He's not bashing the CSL for being a niche league. But having aspirations of being a coast to coast league is kinda delusional when you have the NASL/USL-D2 to contend with. A strong third tier that's regional is way better than a weak third tier that's National. Let the CSL do it's thing, let the PCSL do it's thing.

The CSL is not trying to be a coast to coast league, it's trying to be a series of regional leagues ranging from coast to coast.

[rico]

If it ever expands west I bet the only time they would meet is in the play-offs to save money!

Also with Hamilton and Ottawa doesn't anyone know if they will have teams in the CSL like TFC and the Impact?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

No way to know for sure at this point but it would be surprising/disappointing if they didn't want to operate youth academies as well (the Ottawa Fury are already heavily involved in youth soccer through the Super Y league) and the precedent has been set that the CSL is the place to put the U-18 team.

Beyond that it seems to me that goalposts have been moved by people arguing against what I wrote about the CSL. I initially stated that something more substantial was needed than either PDL or the CSL as a division two sort of level and received the response that the CSL could become that. Now with two other posters it's back to the regional division three stuff, which clearly does not fit as the AAA baseball equivalent I initially argued was needed.

What I found most delusional about the CSL's expansion plans in recent years was the idea that a Prairies division stretching from Winnipeg to Edmonton could work on an open age semi-pro basis when having a team in Windsor (which initially drew crowds of over 1000) proved unsustainable because of the travel commitments involved up and down the 401 and there is a track record stretching back as far as the 1920s of teams from outside the Greater Golden Horseshoe not being sustainable in a league operated using the CSL sort of format.

It should be obvious why junior hockey rather than senior hockey emerged as the main winter spectator sport in the smaller cities and towns across the Prairies after all. Student athletes have the time on their hands to do all the marathon bus travel and the lack of family responsibilities to be able to play the game on close to an amateur basis. PDL works in a soccer context for much the same reason.

If the CSL were serious about creating a network of elite open age divisions from coast to coast it would be easy enough to make the existing AMSL the Alberta division, the MMSL the Manitoba division, the LSEQ the Quebec division, the NSSL the Nova Scotia division etc. There is no need to reinvent the wheel with a completely new layer of teams organized on a regional basis above that.

[Obinna]

argree

[hamiltonfan]

On the Hamilton front; Although the team will be playing in the ~25,000 capacity stadium, the stadium will be built in a ways allowing for a great atmosphere with 5-10K in attendance. NO track, sidelines seats a few meters from the pitch, designated seating for soccer games ect.

I am concerned about the type of pitch..plastic or grass..removable grid lines or not. Also the 20 yrd CFL endzone will push back seating behind the nets. Bob Young is a soccer guy though, I have faith that he'll get it done right.

There is a lot of talk about the youth development system that will be put in place, Bob is keying on developing young talent and will be backing this with strong financing for proper coaching, and facilities.

[Danny Boy]

Beyond that it seems to me that goalposts have been moved by people arguing against what I wrote about the CSL. I initially stated that something more substantial was needed than either PDL or the CSL as a division two sort of level and received the response that the CSL could become that. Now with two other posters it's back to the regional division three stuff, which clearly does not fit as the AAA baseball equivalent I initially argued was needed.

It sounded like you were arguing that the NASL become the AAA league. If not, then are you suggesting the CSL compete with the NASL? I'm not sure I'm following you. It's seems as of now that the NASL is going to be the defacto 2nd tier (AAA) league. I don't think the CSL has the legs at the moment to compete on that level.

[Richard]

Strikes me there is similarity between the CSL and USL-2. The latter has not yet been able to establish divisions outside the NE USA for exactly the same reasons the CSL is stuck in southern Ontario/west Quebec, and the USL has far more muscle than does the CSL.

[alberta white]

Strikes me there is similarity between the CSL and USL-2. The latter has not yet been able to establish divisions outside the NE USA for exactly the same reasons the CSL is stuck in southern Ontario/west Quebec, and the USL has far more muscle than does the CSL.

To some extent Leagues in Europe develop due to progession of teams through Promotion and relegation. If Provinces (and states for that matter) 'played off' for the option for selection (plus buy in cost) into the next level above then at least the clubs in question could focus their season (and commercial promotion) towards this goal.

Imagine the Local access tv on Vancouver Island been all over their Play off game between with the Spokane Spiders withthe winner been....(finacial backing notwithstanding)..... PROMOTED TO THE USSF-2!

well i can drean can't I?

Might seem a crazy Idea but its someting the Brazilians are moving towards (check out the Tim Vickery Blogs on the BBC.)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It sounded like you were arguing that the NASL become the AAA league.

That's what I was arguing. It was Macksam who argued that the CSL could become that.

[Macksam]

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=330136

I think we can kiss that Hamilton NASL team good bye. Young isn't supporting the location that Hamilton City Council just picked.

[strobe_z]

Can someone sum up in a few words why there's such an impasse here? I read the article, but I still don't understand why a city council would vote for a stadium location that potentially won't have a tenant?

[Alex D]

^ Hamilton wants to revitalize downtown, Young wants it in a field next to a highway