Marc Dos Santos not to field top squad vs tfc

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by masster

This is incorrect. The Cleveland Cavaliers did this in their final home game of the season. Despite being able to tie the record for most home wins in a season, they rested all of their starters in the final game and lost.

I would say that sandbagging games is more prevelant in North American sports than it is in football.

Let's also remember the Dallas Maverick, who were first in the West, throwing out their last game of the season in 2007 against Golden State allowing the Warriors to get the 8th and last spot in the conference.....Golden State then upset Dallas in the first round....

[Trident]

quote:Originally posted by Keano

This squad:

Djekanovic

Gatti Surprenant Mayard DeRoux

Brillant Sakuda Mayard Donatelli

Amadou-Gai

Byers

Probably wouldn't concede 4 goals to TFC.

Sakuda has to GTFO of montreal, other than that and taking Byers out, and putting DeRoux up as a mid, I'd love to see that lineup.

Srdjan

Gatti Surprenant Mayard Zanzan

Brillant Grande Mayard Donatelli(or Rocco or DiLo)

Gai __________

That's still a great lineup.

Who is a young striker we could use?

[Mr.Impact]

quote:Originally posted by Keano

DiLo [:0]

No way DiLo is the essence of a professional footballer, even though he's Argentinian:D

Seriously there is no additional motivation needed when the Impact play Those F-ing Clowns.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Mr.Impact

No way DiLo is the essence of a professional footballer, even though he's Argentinian:D

Seriously there is no additional motivation needed when the Impact play Those F-ing Clowns.

Do we have to ask at least the Impact hard core to come out and give them hell. I realize it is a tough match to get fans out to, a few thousand and you have to be happy.

But please, do not provoke TFC too much, we don't want them to get mad and start playing like it really mattered, would we?

[Mr.Impact]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Do we have to ask at least the Impact hard core to come out and give them hell. I realize it is a tough match to get fans out to, a few thousand and you have to be happy.

But please, do not provoke TFC too much, we don't want them to get mad and start playing like it really mattered, would we?

You bring up an interesting point, don't know what we could expect crowd wise. I'd venture to guess 5000 at the very minimum. That would be the lowest attendance for an Impact game since the Claude Robillard Era.

Provoking TFC to play better? If someone knew how to do that, they wouldn't be Crap now would they?

Maybe playing on a proper grass pitch might give them a little boost.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

5000 is fine, let's be realistic. A few Go-Impact-Gos and we are out of there.

If any Impact fan is in Vancouver at a Caps game this July or August and can prove they went to this game where Vancouver wins the Voyageurs Cup, the first beer is on me. I'll be wearing a Nutrilite button with my name on it.

So do TFC fans think you will field a top team and go hell bent to get the goals, or put a younger team on the field to give them playing time to not burn out the squad for league games?

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

I argued before this even started last year that there should be prizes for points won in the competition, financial prizes, and that the players should be ensured a cut of them by their clubs.

The reaction was how could I suggest that a professional would not show up and give his 100%. Now who was naive?

The fact that we have a sponsored Cup and there are no money incentives to go through or get points is, in my view, totally archaic.

Apart from this, hope Srdjan plays and a few others not getting time and motivated to show their worth. Only question is whether Serge has more of a grudge vs. Vancouver or Toronto?

Jeffery .. the question is will MLSE accountants allow a cash payment ... to gain CCL games.. mmm let me thing 20K attendance at 50 a head full income.. a cool million per game revenue.

Laughs MO is going to have a large withdrawal on his AMEX platinum card from the ATMs.

Seriously if any game is going to be fixed this year that Montreal is involved in this is it.

The issue for the CSA is to make damn sure they talk to MLSE and nip the potential in the bud.. a call to the Teachers Pension Fund might well be in order before the game.

Am I suggesting MO knows about bungs and fixing .. nope.

Am I suggesting members of the Impact would accept 25k to lose as badly as they did in Santos Laguna .. nope.

As the game grows .. there will be oppourtunitys for skullduggery its up to the CSA to ensure they are on top of it before it happens.

I think Declan Hill http://www.howtofixasoccergame.com/blog/ author of The Fix lives in Kanata near Peter Montopoli.. so it should not be hard to get an expert opinion.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

The proper (Spanish) way to do this is for the third party (Vancouver) to get a third party (a former player, a business person), to call someone with clout in the Impact dressing room, and offer him a cash reward for getting a result that benefits Vancouver. Simple as that. An award for not getting beaten, an incentive, clearly outlined (all those on the pitch and bench for the match get a cut).

The person of influence in the dressing room would simply have to convince the rest of the players, behind the Impact management's and coaching staff's back, that the deal was a good one. And accept when called back a few days later.

We are so backwards in Canada it is sad. Money for winning, is that so un-Canadian?

Initials ES and former refugee ?

[Vic]

quote:^I brought up this point to a few Southsiders. Kerfoot should call the Impact and offer them some cash if they do not lose.

So 2008 USL Championship hosting and out of vogue.

[kyam]

quote:Originally posted by mtl-supporter23

While I was reading Le Journal de Montreal on my break at work today I came across and quote from Dos Santos saying he will not field his best squad vs Toronto in a pointless game for his squad and risk any injury.

Personally I have mixed feelings about this because as much as I'd love to see us put up a great battle vs tfc this club has be desimated by injuries and any further injuries would deffinetley cripple our chances at a 3rd USL title. Now obviously Whitecaps won't be too pleased about this, mind you tfc still needs to win by four and I dont remember....ughh wait memory lane is too painful.

So by Dos Santos saying that what could that meen? Jordan surely won't be playing, not to mention other notable players, mind you not that Jordan has been Mr. Incredible so far this season.Oh well whichever boys Dos Santos puts on the pitch for our starting XI they'll put up a battle, after all its not like some Seria A scandle in the making, or is it... [)]

Montreal Allez Allez

The Impact can rest some of their "stars" all they want, the fact is, TFC is missing a number of players to injury and International Duty...

They won't have their best line-up either, and I can see rookie Gomez getting some playing time too...

So really, I don't see them scoring 4 goals, let alone win.

[sj]

does a certain 86 world cup team in a tournament in singapore comes to mind?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

^Full strength team meaning 16 players dressed. End of story.

No full strength meaning strongest lineup as stated.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2371954/FA-threaten-to-get-tough-over-weakened-teams.html

The FA warned, on the day of the fifth-round draw, to "respect the values of the FA Cup". "It has not gone unnoticed that some clubs have not fielded anything like their strongest teams this season," said Colin Gibson, the FA's director of communications.

"While it's only a few teams, I would like to emphasise just how important it is for managers to respect the values of the FA Cup and the importance supporters place in it.

"Clubs and managers should also remember that it is the paying public - their fans - who suffer most when they field a weakened team, which is clearly unacceptable.

"We will not be taking any disciplinary action on this occasion but in future we will be monitoring this area of the game very closely."

[Cheeta]

^No. It still means 16 players dressed. Players who are under contracts to the clubs concerned (approved by the FA of course) and who haven't participated in a sanctioned match within 48 hours (or is it 45 hours? Whatever it is.).

How old is that article? I'm sure you can find hundreds which are younger all moaning about the same thing but that's all it is, a bunch of mouth. But its a good one to use as an example because for all the bitching over the years its never amounted to anything. Did you watch the FA Cup the last few years? Dozens of later round matches played by at what can be best considered B squads. And any sanctions? Not a one.

(But since we're drifting a little off topic, lets let the tide carry us for a bit).

Long Answer

None of the EPL teams, which own the English Premier League, and none of the league clubs, which make up the FA, are going to hand over game day roster decision from their multi-million pound managers to any bureaucrat in London. Full stop.

No player on an FA approved contract will be told when he can and cannot be played by anyone other than his manager, least of all by the organization which has already approved him to play in the leagues and tournys by sanctioning his contract. Try to win that argument in court.

And the notion that anyone outside of the club can interfere with how a manager wishes to pursue player development through game time or keep his 2nd team players happy by dictating when they can or can't be rotated into the squad borders on ridicules.

When no one comes out to watch those later round FA Cup matches because they know it's going to be a B squad out there it doesn't just hurt the tourny as a whole it hurts the clubs directly involved as they share the gate. When clubs bounce out of the tourny prematurely they also lose future revenue. A full Goodison brings in I'd guess roughly 1.5M pounds in gate revenue. Host gets 2/3rds of that. Plus TV revenue if the match is broadcast. Emirates a sure 2M pounds.

Plus there is prize money from the FA for each round. Think the champions got 2M pound this year. And the winner goes to Europe. The only chance any smaller club will ever get at international football. (Sure it's the UEFA Cup, it should be Champions League but that's another argument).

But still teams accept the financial risk of playing B squads.

Still all that isn't enough to get teams to take the tourny serious enough. They'd rather concentrate on the league or Europe. Lots of reasons for that (money & roster sizes being a big part for a lot of clubs) but the reasons only matter in that knowing the reasons it's up to the FA to adjust the format or sweeten the deal enough that clubs will take the FA Cup as seriously as they did before the EPL came along.

Short Answer

No team has ever been disciplined for squad selection. No team ever will. It would be impossible to enforce if you even tried.

Full strength squad means 16 players. Dress 16 'keepers if you want. You're only punishment will be from your fans in the court of public opinion. (Just being dramatic to drive home the point).

[brettinhalifax]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Let's also remember the Dallas Maverick, who were first in the West, throwing out their last game of the season in 2007 against Golden State allowing the Warriors to get the 8th and last spot in the conference.....Golden State then upset Dallas in the first round....

1. Just because it happens doesn't mean fans like it. They at best hold their noses and tolerate it.

2. Just because it happens in the NBA/NHL etc. doesn't make it right

3. There is a big difference between it happening in established sports/leagues and soccer. An bigger/more established league/sport is better able to withstand the backlash than a marginal sport/tournament like soccer/NCC.

4. Most importantly, those examples at most affected the pool of teams entering the playoffs. They did not occur in the final game of the playoffs/tournament with direct consequences on which team is the league/tournament champion.

[Daniel]

quote:Do we have to ask at least the Impact hard core to come out and give them hell. I realize it is a tough match to get fans out to, a few thousand and you have to be happy.

You bring up an interesting point, don't know what we could expect crowd wise. I'd venture to guess 5000 at the very minimum. That would be the lowest attendance for an Impact game since the Claude Robillard Era.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

Impact has only taken 1/9 points in history against TFC and the fans will want to see a strong performance to dump Toronto from the cup, not some 3-0 loss.

A 3-0 loss by the Impact would still dump Toronto from the Cup.

[Kurosawa1555362267]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

A 3-0 loss by the Impact would still dump Toronto from the Cup.

Sure but it aint sexy...

I'm pretty sure I am not the only one who expects more than that.

[MastaK]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

A 3-0 loss by the Impact would still dump Toronto from the Cup.

What he meant is that we want to see our team perform against Toronto. They did it in the past even if the results don't show it.

To us, the difference between a 0-3 and a 0-4 is not important. If they lose by a score similar to that, it's bad.

We want our team to get a result out of this game, even if they don't have to.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by MastaK

What he meant is that we want to see our team perform against Toronto. They did it in the past even if the results don't show it.

To us, the difference between a 0-3 and a 0-4 is not important. If they lose by a score similar to that, it's bad.

We want our team to get a result out of this game, even if they don't have to.

That makes sense.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

^No. It still means 16 players dressed. Players who are under contracts to the clubs concerned (approved by the FA of course) and who haven't participated in a sanctioned match within 48 hours (or is it 45 hours? Whatever it is.).

Can't be bothered pursuing this in any great depth as I have better things to do with my time given I can remember examples of the FA (or other governing bodies) taking action against clubs who were deemed to have fielded a weakened team. ISTR Newcastle United once got expelled from the Anglo-Scottish Cup for it for example after a game against Ayr United. If you chose not to believe me on that so be it. Having rules covering this prevents teams from taking the resting players angles to ridiculous extremes that would be detrimental to the integrity of the competition. Personally think the CSA should have had that in the small print when they put this competition together and if they had Dos Santos would be more circumspect about speaking publicly about it. If you disagree I'd be interested to hear why? Do you think it would be positive for the sport's image in a Canadian context if one of the teams is perceived by most onlookers to have effectively thrown a game in a way that changes who gets to be overall champion?

[AlanDouglas]

Coaches are notorious for playing mind games with their opposite number. Whatever coaches say about their line-up plans pre-game should be taken with a huge grain of salt, then ignored completely.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Can't be bothered pursuing this in any great depth as I have better things to do with my time given I can remember examples of the FA (or other governing bodies) taking action against clubs who were deemed to have fielded a weakened team. ISTR Newcastle United once got expelled from the Anglo-Scottish Cup for it for example after a game against Ayr United. If you chose not to believe me on that so be it. Having rules covering this prevents teams from taking the resting players angles to ridiculous extremes that would be detrimental to the integrity of the competition. Personally think the CSA should have had that in the small print when they put this competition together and if they had Dos Santos would be more circumspect about speaking publicly about it. If you disagree I'd be interested to hear why? Do you think it would be positive for the sport's image in a Canadian context if one of the teams is perceived by most onlookers to have effectively thrown a game in a way that changes who gets to be overall champion?

Of course, in a perfect world this kind of rule about fielding your best team would ensure a fair competition.

The problem is the at legal level. How can you enforce this rule? What's a team full strenght squad? Can you make 1-2-3-4-5-6 changes from your typical starting 11? Your best player is fit after missing 3 games due to an injury, do you have to start him? Your starting keeper has been poor lately and you had the intention to give your back up a chance, if you play him are you going against the rule?

I don't know much about the examples your trying to present but the reality is that FIFA doesn't have such a rule, nor UEFA during the Euro as fair as I know. In pretty much every FIFA or UEFA tournaments you have the possibility in the group stage of teams playing their B team because they are either already through or eliminated (remember Netherlands group in the Euro?).

Maybe there are a few examples of rules like that in the English game but please don't make it sound like the CSA blew it because they didn't think about such a rule. FIFA, who runs the biggest event on earth doesn't even thought about making one because they knew they have no business putting their noses in coaching selection and the interpretation would be too hard to make.

That being said, the CSA could try to find a way to avoid such situation in the future. Maybe $$$ for results would be a good way if it's possible or having team 1 and 2 playing a final (but you could still see the situation happening with a lesser effect).

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just remembered an article I read a couple of weeks back in the London Free Press:-

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/Sports/Soccer/2009/05/23/9544941-sun.html

Might be an eye opener for you in terms of what the CSA can potentially do when they decide they dislike the actions of a coach in one of the competitions they sanction.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Just remembered an article I read a couple of weeks back in the London Free Press:-

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/Sports/Soccer/2009/05/23/9544941-sun.html

Might be an eye opener for you in terms of what the CSA can potentially do when they decide they dislike the actions of a coach in one of the competitions they sanction.

There's a difference between a case involving a coach representing himself and one who could possibily involve Saputo, MLSE and Kerfoot lawyers.

BTW, I think this article actually shows how unclear this rule is. You need solid proof to say a team did throw a game and unless one team starts scoring own goals I'm against accusing a team of throwing out a game because they played their reserves.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

At no point did I say there was a direct parallel. You should maybe bear in mind, however, that FIFA tend to take a very dim view of legal action being taken over soccer governance matters. Prior to this in the thread I have come up with an example in the soccer world of where there is a rule saying that strongest teams have to be fielded, which is what you initially challenged me about. I remain of the opinion that the CSA should make it clear they expect that to happen in the context of the Canadian Championship if they are going to stick with a round robin format. If TFC were to win the game 4-0 against an Impact reserve team I would see the Canadian Championship victory as a tainted one and would feel a bit embarrassed about it as a TFC fan. If you disagree we will just have to agree to disagree.