Question about the Nsaliwa situation...

[marcl_19]

I know this topic was beaten to deeath before the WCQ's started up last summer but i just saw something that was a bit weird and I dont remember it coming up in that big thread from before.

The big thing about Tam was having to give up his Canadian passport to attain a german one. I know the german citizenship laws are very strict and all. the thing I just notced today is I read that Hirschfeld holds german citizenship (as well as obviously Canadian as well)

I guess the easy reasoning for this is Tam wasn't born in germany nor does he have German parents while Lars obviously has at least one german parent (i dont know his life story but based on his name that would be the logical reason)

But the point I'm making is why does Tam have to give up his canadian passport if others don't have to? If its simply a legality of the law then I guess that's that, but seems a little stupid to me.

Also, does anyone know if anything is being done so that tam can be eligible for our nats again regardless of the passport situation?

[Keegan]

quote:Originally posted by marcl_19

I know this topic was beaten to deeath before the WCQ's started up last summer but i just saw something that was a bit weird and I dont remember it coming up in that big thread from before.

The big thing about Tam was having to give up his Canadian passport to attain a german one. I know the german citizenship laws are very strict and all. the thing I just notced today is I read that Hirschfeld holds german citizenship (as well as obviously Canadian as well)

I guess the easy reasoning for this is Tam wasn't born in germany nor does he have German parents while Lars obviously has at least one german parent (i dont know his life story but based on his name that would be the logical reason)

But the point I'm making is why does Tam have to give up his canadian passport if others don't have to? If its simply a legality of the law then I guess that's that, but seems a little stupid to me.

Also, does anyone know if anything is being done so that tam can be eligible for our nats again regardless of the passport situation?

Because FIFA rules state that a player can play for his country of birth.

Tam wasn't born in Canada, Lars was. If Tam was born in Canada none of this mess would be happening even if he did give up his Canadian citizenship

[marcl_19]

Ah ok fair enough. So even if Lars had to give up his cdn passport for german citizenship, he can still play for us. now i know.

[Juby]

the question I'm having is with Fifa, isn't there some sort of check or balance like a court where obvious problems can be given exceptions? big exxageration but I'm thinking of the movie 'a time to kill', realistically he should have been found guilty and then immidiately pardoned by the governor to keep the system legit (he could get off for 'duress' but I don't remember that word from the movie, been a few years though) and fix systematic problems. So why can't we just make a super public appeal so everybody knows were not up to no good and then get like sepp blatters stamp to fix one of the injustices of their system (seems easier to me to make tam an exception to the rule instead of bothering with policy change)

[George]

I am no Sports law expert but isn't this the type of problem that can be solved through the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

Here is their Wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_of_Arbitration_for_Sport

Have idiots at the CSA even heard of this body?

[masster]

^ George, you know common sense doesn't work for the CSA. How could you be so silly?!?

[masster]

^ George, you know common sense doesn't work for the CSA. How could you be so silly?!?

[Rivaldo]

quote:Originally posted by Keegan

Because FIFA rules state that a player can play for his country of birth.

Tam wasn't born in Canada, Lars was. If Tam was born in Canada none of this mess would be happening even if he did give up his Canadian citizenship.

I think he still needs Canadian nationality even if he was born in Canada. See article 15 of the FIFA Statutes.

We don't have to worry about losing Lars, do we?

[Grizzly]

German citizenship is based on blood or in other words race. There is no granting of German citizenship by being born there. Germany doesn't allow dual citizenship but makes an exception for people of German race who were not born in Germany, ie. Lars. Racial German's born in Germany can not get citizenship to another country. It is possible though quite difficult for non-racial Germans to get German citizenship. Being a wealthy and prominent sports figure probably makes the process much simpler than for the average guy. Anyone applying for German citizenship who is not an ethnic German born in another country must show proof to the German government that he has renounced his previous citizenship. In other words Tam had to show official documents from both the Canadian and Malawi government stating that he had renounced their citizenships and was no longer a citizen of these countries.

A summary:

German race born in Germany = German citizen and no right to dual citizenship (unless you manage to keep the second one secret from German government)

German race born outside of Germany = Eligible for German citizenship without having to give up the citizenship of your birth country

Non-German race born inside or outside Germany = Only eligible for citizenship if you can prove that you have given up any previous citizenships (and fulfilled a lot of other unreasonable prerequisites)

I was born in Germany but am not ethnic German but lived and worked there for many years (in fact I think more than Tam) but never even came close to qualifying for permanent residency (or a work permit allowing me to work where I choose) let alone citizenship. This was the main reason I left. I like how Tam plays and think one of Yallop's biggest mistakes was not to call him until we were eliminated (in fact I think he purposely did this so Watson would not face competition for his place). However, despite being in a similar situation to Tam I would never have renounced my Canadian citizenship for German citizenship. In my opinion Tam is no longer Canadian, should never have his Canadian citizenship returned and should never be allowed to play for us. I think FIFA is completely correct in not considering him a Canadian though I will fully admit there are an awful lot of players playing for other countries who have even less legitimacy to represent that country than Tam would have to represent us (for example, the Brazilians that about 50% of the European countries have).

[Gordon]

^ Afraid I can't agree with you Grizz...In order to pursue a career Tam was basically presented with two options, one, acquiring an EU citizenship and opening a world of options, or not doing so and living a somewhat nomadic existence. There was not the structure in Canada for him to pursue a decent living in Canada, and various FIFA Rules were part of the cause. Being born in Malawi, and being of Canadian citizen game him far fewer options. My sons, for example, were they soccer players, are eligible to play for Canada, Germany, Poland and the Ukraine according to FIFA, According to your eligibility criteria, they are also eligible for German citizenshp through their mother's side of the family. Obviously the bottom line is that the playing field is not level. Hell, even in Canada we've allowed a sitauation where it would be more advantageous for him to become an American in order to play for TFC! As such, I find it hard to criticize a decision that was clearly made to allow him to pursue a living in his preferred field. It is hardly Tam's fault that he grew up in a nation in which being a well paid professional soccer player is virtually impossible. Nor is it his fault that various nations (although I do believe that not all do) in Europe apply residency restrictions to professional sports, unlike major sports in North America where talent is the only criteria for making a team.

[Rivaldo]

Will Tam qualify for Greek citizenship soon? Would they allow him to get his Canadian citizenship back? Does he have any ties to Germany that would make him reluctant to give up that citizenship?

[Rivaldo]

I happened to read this article: Dual-Nationality for Cacau about a Brazilian who, after living in Germany for almost ten years, has acquired dual Brazilian/German nationality. Has Germany changed their citizenship laws?

[deschamp86]

I think the problem lies in the fact that Nsaliwa wasn't born in Canada, so had to give up his Canadian citizenship.

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by Rivaldo

Will Tam qualify for Greek citizenship soon? Would they allow him to get his Canadian citizenship back? Does he have any ties to Germany that would make him reluctant to give up that citizenship?

I believe Greek citizenship is actually much more restrictive and ethnically based than in Germany. Things may have changed in modern times, but I remember hearing that Lord Byron was the first (and one of the only) foreign born people to be granted Greek citizenship.

The other thing to add regarding Grizzly's description of German citizenship rules is that I believe it's as sexist as it is racist. My mom was born in Ludwigsburg, outside Stuttgart. My grandma is from Berlin and my grandpa from Breslau (modern day Wroclaw, Poland). When I looked into it (briefly) I was told the German blood had to run through the father's side. To which I said frigg you too Germany, I'm glad we won the war.

[Ian Kennett]

It seems to me that this all boils down to one question. Given that Tam is cap tied to Canada, and he cannot play internationaly for any other country, he is, in effect, a displaced person without a national home country in terms of FIFA's eligibility rule. Is this really logical in terms of FIFA's Fair Play ethic? It seems to me that FIFA needs to summarily state that Nsaliwa can play for the country to which he is cap tied simply because he is cap tied to that country, and for no other reason. Gordon is correct when he states that Tam was essentially forced into his action to persue a decent career in soccer, FIFA's thing, when to do otherwise would have certainly and severely limited his career options in soccer. Ironicallly, his career options in soccer are still restricted due to FIFA's reliance on the "rule book".

To how many players does this set of cirumstances apply? I can think of no others.

FIFA needs to assume some proactive leadership in special circumstacnes like this. Take the recent France-Ireland debacle. Both associations would likely have agreed to a replay of the game, but FIFA stuck to the "rulebook" even when the rule in question was not really appropriate to fairly ejudicate the problem at hand. Surely FIFA can make exceptions to "the rule" when the circumstances in rare cases obviously require the exception.

Cheers!

[SthMelbRed]

^the FFF would never have willingly agreed to a replay.

[Canuck Oranje]

My guess is that he has a German parent/grandparent. While Cacau is born in Santo Andre (Greater Sao Paulo), the surname da Silva makes it highly possible that his family originated from the south of Brazil where many of the German immigrants settled. The 10 year timeline may have more to do with proving German lineage than a change in German law. Birth documents of early German settlers can be challenging to get especially if the family also migrated within Brazil. Many German immigrants were poor and working class so blending into Brazil's other ethnic communities was very common.

quote:Originally posted by Rivaldo

I happened to read this article: Dual-Nationality for Cacau about a Brazilian who, after living in Germany for almost ten years, has acquired dual Brazilian/German nationality. Has Germany changed their citizenship laws?

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

German citizenship laws sound pretty ridiculous, and to be honest, somewhat racist. Being born in Germany doesn't make you a German citizen, but being of 'German blood' and being born somewhere else does?

Could he have not have simply found a club in another country that wouldn't require him to give up his Canadian passport?

[Levi Oakey]

I don't know if this has ever been posted before, but about the Nsaliwa question, I thought this might shed some light on an other wise darkened area.

http://failblog.org/2009/11/23/underwear-fail-4/

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by welltoldtales

I don't know if this has ever been posted before, but about the Nsaliwa question, I thought this might shed some light on an other wise darkened area.

http://failblog.org/2009/11/23/underwear-fail-4/

I was so relieved when they admitted that it was a fake.

Phew!

Come back Tam. Forgive us!!!!!!

db

[Rivaldo]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

My guess is that he has a German parent/grandparent. While Cacau is born in Santo Andre (Greater Sao Paulo), the surname da Silva makes it highly possible that his family originated from the south of Brazil where many of the German immigrants settled. The 10 year timeline may have more to do with proving German lineage than a change in German law. Birth documents of early German settlers can be challenging to get especially if the family also migrated within Brazil. Many German immigrants were poor and working class so blending into Brazil's other ethnic communities was very common.

That's possible, but it sounds like a shot in the dark to me. Silva is the most common surname in Brazil (and I think Portugal too). How is it specific to the south or to Germans? If he had German ancestors I think the article would have mentioned that.

That photo made me laugh, and yes it's fake.

[Canuck Oranje]

I know Silva is a very common name in Brazil. But it is also very common in the south of Brazil. But that was only speculative and wasn't the important part as surnames commonly change with marriages.

The fact is there are a lot of people in the south of Brazil with a German grandparent that would make them eligible for a German passport. In some communities in States of Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina and Parana, German is a very commonly used language. Blumenau in Santa Catarina has a great Oktoberfest and the Brazilian soccer clubs of Gremio and Coritiba actually were founded as German clubs.

Skin colour is not the issue. Proof of a German parent or grandparent is. My wife has personal experience with the German process and from Brazil.

quote:Originally posted by Rivaldo

That's possible, but it sounds like a shot in the dark to me. Silva is the most common surname in Brazil (and I think Portugal too). How is it specific to the south or to Germans? If he had German ancestors I think the article would have mentioned that.

That photo made me laugh, and yes it's fake.

[Rivaldo]

Whatever happened with Cacau, it doesn't look like anything that will help Tam.

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

I believe Greek citizenship is actually much more restrictive and ethnically based than in Germany.

I did check out Wikipedia for some info on Greek citizenship and it says they do allow dual citizens, but you need to be a resident for 10 years, or five years after declaring an intention to acquire Greek citizenship.

[masster]

I have confirmed that the problem is simply Canada unwilling to give Tam his passport back after he voluntarily relinquished it. Despite lawyers working on this issue, it is not expected to change anytime soon.

I think the only way we might see Tam again is if the CSA can lobby FIFA for some sort of special exemption. Don't count on it though.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by masster

I have confirmed that the problem is simply Canada unwilling to give Tam his passport back after he voluntarily relinquished it. Despite lawyers working on this issue, it is not expected to change anytime soon.

I think the only way we might see Tam again is if the CSA can lobby FIFA for some sort of special exemption. Don't count on it though.

I agree 100% that the government should make it very hard for people who have voluntarily relinquished their Canadian passport to regain it again. Indeed it should be harder for them to regain it than someone who never was a Canadian citizen. Being a talented athlete should not play any role in this decision. I am also absolutely opposed to the German citizenship laws, am denied German citizenship myself because of these laws and left Germany because of this. I also always liked Tam as a player and I think I was one of the most upset about how he was treated by Yallop. However, Tam made a freewill choice to give up his Canadian citizenship to join and accept the laws of Germany. He is not a Canadian now, he is German, end of story. He shouldn't be playing for Canada.