MLS citizenship rules 'ridiculous'

[Jason]

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/McNulty/2007/07/29/4377756-sun.html

Interesting article. Remember when people suggested that TFC should be primarily used as a development tool for Canadian soccer? Obviously it will be helpful in the grand scheme of things, but this article shows us that their first priority is to win, not develop talent. And I'm good with that, and always have been. Pro sides should be out to win first and foremost.

Re: the Sutton injury. Any warm and fuzzies between TFC and the CSA appear to be gone already. I never expected the relationship to be as cozy as many thought it would be, but I also thought there wouldn't be this kind of tension this soon.

Jason

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Jason

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/McNulty/2007/07/29/4377756-sun.html

Interesting article. Remember when people suggested that TFC should be primarily used as a development tool for Canadian soccer? Obviously it will be helpful in the grand scheme of things, but this article shows us that their first priority is to win, not develop talent. And I'm good with that, and always have been. Pro sides should be out to win first and foremost.

Re: the Sutton injury. Any warm and fuzzies between TFC and the CSA appear to be gone already. I never expected the relationship to be as cozy as many thought it would be, but I also thought there wouldn't be this kind of tension this soon.

Jason

However, In todays game the following Canadians players saw action: Monsalve, Brennan, Pozniak, Lombardo, Melo. I cant find any other first division club side anywhere in the world ( at any time) where that many Canadians saw action in one game. So its worked out pretty well for the CSA and player development. Where would Melo, Lombardo, POZ , & MOntsalve be today were it not for TFC? And if they were somewhere else, its not likely that they would been on the same pitch as a Mexican soccer legends and an array of CONCACAF national team players whom they might have to face one day in the GC or WCQ.

But the downside, TFC has exposed before our very own eyes the seriousness of the talent depth problem that exists on or national team pool. Its the first time that we have actually consistently gotten to see some of these players who are one the national teams ( eg.: Reda, Braz, Pozniak, Brennan, Sutton) perform week in and week out as professionals compared to our concacaf rivals. And, Mo is telling us that ( as a group) at best, they are average players. When did we ever hear that kind of frank talk about our players when they were plying their trades overseas. What I learned this summer ( that I didn't quite appreciate or realize before) from all the soccer that I saw, is that there is a quite a big talent differential on our MNT.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

However, In todays game the following Canadians players saw action: Monsalve, Brennan, Pozniak, Lombardo, Melo. I cant find any other first division club side anywhere in the world ( at any time) where that many Canadians saw action in one game. So its worked out pretty well for the CSA and player development. Where would Melo, Lombardo, POZ , & MOntsalve be today were it not for TFC? And if they were somewhere else, its not likely that they would been on the same pitch as a Mexican soccer legends and an array of CONCACAF national team players whom they might have to face one day in the GC or WCQ.

But the downside, TFC has exposed before our very own eyes the seriousness of the talent depth problem that exists on or national team pool. Its the first time that we have actually consistently gotten to see some of these players who are one the national teams ( eg.: Reda, Braz, Pozniak, Brennan, Sutton) perform week in and week out as professionals compared to our concacaf rivals. And, Mo is telling us that ( as a group) at best, they are average players. When did we ever hear that kind of frank talk about our players when they were plying their trades overseas. What I learned this summer ( that I didn't quite appreciate or realize before) from all the soccer that I saw, is that there is a quite a big talent differential on our MNT.

If you consider the NASL to be roughly on an equal footing with MLS (which I most definitely do), there were many times when more than five Canadians played in a match for one team. I'm sure there are people in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver that can come up with a list of names.

Just off the top of my head re. the Blizzard

Sven Habberman, Paul James, Colin Miller, Charlie Falzon, Cosimo Commisso, Jimmy Nichol, Trevor McCallum, Randy Ragan plus naturalized fellows like Colin Franks and Cliff Calvert would have all been on the field together at one time or another during their time with the Blizzard.

On one occasion, I recall the Blizzard starting eight Canadians against the Cosmos in New York. No, we didn't win but we weren't embarrassed either.

Back in those days, we wore onions on our belts because that was the style at the time .................................................

db

[VPjr]

The Canadian players are worse than average. Brennan can hold his own...the rest are "not ready for primetime" (Melo, Lombardo, Monsalve, Djakanovic,etc...) and some never will be (poz, Reda, Braz).

If TFC has to continue to keep 6 Canadians on its senior roster, they are going to have a hard time competing in this league. The reality is that the US has SOOOOO much more talent that Canada does. I have no problem with a reserve team full of Canucks but the top 18 need to be the best Mo can get under the salary cap. On this team, the only Canadian that survives the cut is Jimmy B (and maybe Sutton as a backup because I really dont have that much confidence in him, even if he were healthy)

[An Observer]

Personally, I think the solution to this "problem" is that Canadian and American players are treated as the same nationality. That way, Toronto can get around the issue of the limited number of Canadians available and for example, take a US keeper. But it opens up roster spots on all the other US sides for Canadians to compete on equal footing with the Americans.

This in my opinion is better for us in Canada anyway. Players like Braz and Reda who are obviously in the dog house, could have other options. Right now, if a manager doesn't like a Canadian player or he doesn't fit into his system, that's it. He's on the bench or out.

With the situation that TFC faces right now, I would not be surprised if the rule is dropped as early as next year as 1. it seems obvious that TFC will push for it due to the keeper crisis they have faced as well as limited options; 2. as TFC does not have a "stacked" Canadian side, there seems likely little option from US soccer to this change as they will likely surmise it will have little impact on American player development; and 3. sides like Houston, Dallas, and LA who have Canadians already would likely be supportive at that would free up some international spots.

In the long run, this will be the best solution for Canadian soccer as young players would know that they not only have TFC as an option, but all the American sides. I would bet that in the first year of its operation you would see 5 or 6 more players from Canada getting into the league with other teams.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

Personally, I think the solution to this "problem" is that Canadian and American players are treated as the same nationality. That way, Toronto can get around the issue of the limited number of Canadians available and for example, take a US keeper. But it opens up roster spots on all the other US sides for Canadians to compete on equal footing with the Americans

This in my opinion is better for us in Canada anyway. Players like Braz and Reda who are obviously in the dog house, could have other options. Right now, if a manager doesn't like a Canadian player or he doesn't fit into his system, that's it. He's on the bench or out.

With the situation that TFC faces right now, I would not be surprised if the rule is dropped as early as next year as 1. it seems obvious that TFC will push for it due to the keeper crisis they have faced as well as limited options; 2. as TFC does not have a "stacked" Canadian side, there seems likely little option from US soccer to this change as they will likely surmise it will have little impact on American player development; and 3. sides like Houston, Dallas, and LA who have Canadians already would likely be supportive at that would free up some international spots.

In the long run, this will be the best solution for Canadian soccer as young players would know that they not only have TFC as an option, but all the American sides. I would bet that in the first year of its operation you would see 5 or 6 more players from Canada getting into the league with other teams.

Well, the problem with that is that the population and talent-pool-size of available soccer players is so vast between canada and the US. Under your scenario, a US MLS clubs could probably do fine by focusing exclusvely on US based and developed talent and saving scouting costs by completely ignoring canada.

Look at the other Canadians on MLS sides and you will notice that there is/has been a canadian connection within the coaching ranks of their teams at one point in their careers. Yes, they are there on merit but would an american coach have seen the same potential in them as a canadian coach?

We just dont have anything comparable to an NCAA calibre development vehicle in Canada and thats the problem. CIAU will never be anything comparable to the NCAA because the season is only something like 2 months long and the coaching and $$$ are not there. We have a couple of semi-pro type environments, but thats not the same thing. A true development system needs to have a players of the same age playing competeing against each other.

[Gian-Luca]

I'd be more inclined to believe that the talent pool between the US & Canada is so much more vast if I wasn't seeing highly-touted or experienced players like Edu & Marshall (respectively) perform worse than any Canadian did on the pitch yesterday for TFC. Add to that the total stinker performance by Andy Welsh from the UK & Colin Samuel and it's amazing to me that the all the talk after the game is about the quality of the Canadian players. Out of the 5 Canucks who played yesterday, more than half (Lombardo, Melo, Monsalve) are just kids starting out their careers - hardly the cause of the problem.

Mo is starting to piss me off with these comments, to be honest. He knew perfectly well what the roster rules were ahead of time, complaining about it now mid-season just looks stupid. It's not the league or the CSA's fault that he didn't put together a team from within those roster rules - a back-up keeper to Sutton was always likely to see some action due to Sutton's place on the national team, that should have been more of a priority even before the injury than it was. Instead he signs a bunch of Canadians to the senior roster that he never uses (Canizalez, Braz & Reda & Asante, the latter of whom who let go before playing a league game) in other positions.

And frankly, it doesn't matter which keeper he puts into the net, the team gives up far too many chances, doesn't hold on to the ball enough possession-wise, and is under-manned up front (after starting the season with a glut of strikers). That's to be expected - they are a first-year expansion team with a lot of kids on their reserves. And game after game Mo seems to praise Sutton's replacements & say that things are not their fault, which then makes his whining about the roster regulations preventing him from signing another US keeper (who probably will be not much better than Serge or David if he's a back-up somewhere else) look like well, just that - a bunch of whining.

And enough with the threats of not releasing those same Canadian players who's talents he is critiquing if the national team should come calling.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by Jason

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/McNulty/2007/07/29/4377756-sun.html

What a load of crap.

TFC are playing under the same rules as everybody else but it just so happens that our domestics carry a different passport than the other MLS teams. MLSE knew this when they signed on. And so did Mo Johnson. If Mo didn't have the fore sight to realise he would be losing players to injury over the season and left himself shallow Canadian content who's fault is that?

MLS? The bastards! Imagine, 1st they explain the rules to you in black and white and then they expect you to adhear to them even when it's inconvient!

MLS's US based teams are playing marginal American players every single match, developing them and grooming them with on field experience. Now I know Reda's been nursing some injuries but had Mo spent a little more faith on Braz and MC2 instead of, oh I don't know, lets say WELSH, they might be up to speed by now.

Each and every one of MLS's US based teams will at some point be moaning about the quality of the replacements they have to bring in to replace injured 1st team players and the US based teams have a larger player pool to draw from. But they also have a more competative field to play on. "Marginal" Canadian players will not be picked up by US teams, it's either TFC or they live with their status quo.

Mo's got a problems all right, but none of them are because of MLS's domestic player rule.

[Macksam]

The first couple of years will be rough. That's why I always say the solution is getting that Youth Academy up and going. That will solve the problem.

[Bxl Boy]

Look what happens in USL now with the change of the rule

Americans are more and more playing for Vancouver and Montreal, Canadians are tending to disappear...

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Macksam

The first couple of years will be rough. That's why I always say the solution is getting that Youth Academy up and going. That will solve the problem.

for the reasons that I mentioned above ( ie.: lack of an NCAA type development tool), that Academy is going to be, moreso than any other MLS club) the lifeblood of the team. MLSEL would be wise to ensure that resources are not spared for that. It will have to be the best in the league.

[thegoz]

Aren't there young canadian players already in the NCAA ranks? I would assume that would help expand the player pool as well.

[L.T.]

For many reasons, the NCAA is not an optimal development platform. Even the Americans have pretty much conceded this. The U.S. MLS teams are already going the academy route for their primary source of talent.

http://www.ussoccer.com/articles/viewArticle.jsp_557057.html

If they can figure out what to do with these kids between 18 and when they are ready for the MLS, then the NCAA will become irrelevent in terms of elite player development

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

TFC are playing under the same rules as everybody else but it just so happens that our domestics carry a different passport than the other MLS teams. MLSE knew this when they signed on. And so did Mo Johnson.

Actually, TFC are playing under more advantageous rules than everybodey else in the league, because they have a full compliment of Canadians they can choose from & an extra compliment of US players, for their first (I believe) 3 seasons. And he's still complaining.

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

for the reasons that I mentioned above ( ie.: lack of an NCAA type development tool), that Academy is going to be, moreso than any other MLS club) the lifeblood of the team. MLSEL would be wise to ensure that resources are not spared for that. It will have to be the best in the league.

I couldn't agree more. You have to get the kids young in order to develop them properly. This would also help the MNT.

quote:

For many reasons, the NCAA is not an optimal development platform. Even the Americans have pretty much conceded this. The U.S. MLS teams are already going the academy route for their primary source of talent.

It ain't the greatest but some really good players occaisionally come out of it. Maurice Edu in my honest opinion is one of our best players and he is an NCAA product.

quote:

Interesting article. Remember when people suggested that TFC should be primarily used as a development tool for Canadian soccer? Obviously it will be helpful in the grand scheme of things, but this article shows us that their first priority is to win, not develop talent. And I'm good with that, and always have been. Pro sides should be out to win first and foremost.

No, absolutely not. That's the attitude that has gotten Canada no where in soccer to begin with. Winning is essential but we must develop and build the talent first. Than everything else will fall in place. How are we going to win without the talent?

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Jason

Re: the Sutton injury. Any warm and fuzzies between TFC and the CSA appear to be gone already. I never expected the relationship to be as cozy as many thought it would be, but I also thought there wouldn't be this kind of tension this soon.

It would probably help if Mo actually went & talked to the CSA directly about this & see what actually happened from their perspective - as I seem to recall Gerry Dobson reporting that Sutton re-injured himself in the warm up to the Guadeloupe game when a ball boy hit him in the head with the ball - in which case the Miami Doctor might be free of any blame as well. In the audio clips from the press conference that I posted elsewhere, it sounds like he has not contacted them & instead has preferred to un-professionaly slam them & threaten them in the press, while at the same time reaffirming that TFC are a professional organization. Something doesn't compute there.

[JPB]

Johnson has a very good point about Sutton and the lack of doctor with the Canadian team during the Gold Cup. Take care of the players. That's his point.

And he lost Sutton, not just to the National Team, but due to an injury that will have his starting keeper out for the rest of the season. And the National Team lost Sutton as well. Take care of the players.

He walks a fine line between 1) voicing support for the Canadian national team and being very cooperative when that team calls on him to release players and 2) getting his job done in Toronto for Toronto's fans and owners.

In the short run (and what coach in the MLS has the luxury of looking out 3-5 years down the road?), Johnson will have roster problems not of his own making. That has to be frustrating. And he knows fans will be disappointed. So far I haven't read anything he has said that is a whine, but he walks the fine line like all team managers must.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by JPB

Johnson has a very good point about Sutton and the lack of doctor with the Canadian team during the Gold Cup. Take care of the players. That's his point.

And he lost Sutton, not just to the National Team, but due to an injury that will have his starting keeper out for the rest of the season. And the National Team lost Sutton as well. Take care of the players.

Unless there is any suggestion that the Doctor they took him to was patently un-qualified to make an assessment, I don't think it is fair or accurate to suggest that Stephen Hart or Morgan Quarry didn't perform due diligence in taking care of Sutton, or that they somehow wouldn't be interested in doing so. Particularly if the reports of Sutton receiving a second shot to the head after the diagnosis in the warm up to a game are correct. They obviously cared enough about his health to pull him from the line-up when he got re-injured, he wasn't even on the bench (Giacomi was) when they re-called Onstad.

Again, a team Doctor wouldn't be a bad thing, but there's no guarantee at all that this wouldn't have or would have been less likely to have happened even if there was one. Just ask Jason De Vos.

[Grizzly]

I would like to ask Mo exactly where in the MLS rulebook it says that he has to start a Canadian keeper. If he had paid more money and got some better Canadians for other positions he would not feel obligated to start a Canadian at keeper. Our top Canadian is 6th on the salary list of TFC. Mo is paying 300 000 for a mediocre Welshman and 200 000 for a poor Englishman. Why didn't he try and target a couple of the better Canadians playing overseas like Radzinski instead of signing guys like Canizales who played mostly in the German 4th division? The problem with this team is not the performance of Canadian development players earning less than 30 000, it is that a large number of our big budget foreign players are not earning their salary. As GL stated TFC got generous terms in joining the league and hopefully the domestic rules will be tightened in future years.

The problem at the keeper position has nothing to do with domestic player rules but rather the fact that Mo signed only one potential starting keeper, Canadian or otherwise, and didn't sign a backup. Even at that the penciled in starter, Sutton, was not a proven keeper at MLS level and proved to be only adequate in this position even when healthy. I don't claim to be a soccer genius but I posted several times before the season that if he was going to sign an unproven Sutton as starter he better at least sign someone with equal potential to start and let them fight for the job. Surely Mo must know enough about soccer to realize the same thing but apparently not and know it is the league's fault that he didn't. If Stama is available now he probably was available a few months ago as well if it was absolutely necessary to play a Canadian at keeper.

Mo is blaming others for his own mistakes. He knew the rules at the beginning and didn't deal with them properly. He should be more careful about what he says because he is pissing off a significant number of TFC's hardcore supporters with comments like this.

[Gian-Luca]

To be fair, I think Mo did inquire with Radzisnki's agent but got a salary request that was out of TFC's league unless it was for a DP.

But there are other examples. Mo could have had Kevin Harmse for very little, if anything at all, instead he's getting first-team action in LA. Serioux was drafted by TFC & then traded away. For a good player, but perhaps that player could have been obtained by trading other players or draft picks. Was there any interest in getting Sandro Grande? Probably not as I don't think he played any of the national team games that Mo bothered to watch as "scouting", which is probably why the likes of Braz & Reda got signed. What about getting Ali Gerba on loan (something they should definitely do now with just two healthy strikers left on the roster)?

[Grizzly]

God forbid that TFC should pay for a designated player with all of their sold out stadiums. In fact, as an expansion team the designated player rule seems to be very attractive because it always takes time to recruit the type of solid mediocre players who make up any good team. Kind of reminds you who owns this team and their philosophy of profit before winning. This is not Mo's fault but if he is bitching about an unfair advantage that the US teams have over him that is it. I am not sure where the TFC overall payroll ranks in the league but 7 of the teams pay their top earner more than TFC and 2 teams have 2 players earning more than Robinson. I would also suggest that Robinson was not the best choice of player for TFC's top earner, he is more of an average MLS midfielder than a star player.

[Cheeta]

Speaking of spending money, anyone catch that bit about the folding chairs they're selling at the north end. Three hundred seats sold at $75 a pop for the Chicago match and $100 a pop for the L.A. fixture.

That's $52K of "found" money in just 2 matches.

MLSE is claiming they're losing money on TFC this 1st year. And yeah, sure, maybe they are. But I'll bet good money that's only because they're trying to write off some serious capital expenses in one big shot in 2007 and not over a longer period as would be the normal accounting practice on a venture like this.

Anyway, Mo can complain all he wants. I'd say 90% of his player problems are his own doing. What do you expect from a manger with what? 12 games of experience under his belt before he was hired? And a marginal record at that!

I'm not sure if he's suffering from Yallop Disease (want's to play a certain style of play irregardless of his player pool), O'Neil Syndrome (manages a countries "Flag-ship" club but hates that countries domestics for reasons of locker room politics) or is just plain incompetant.

But, in Mo's defence and truth be told he HAS been more than a bit unlucky with some of the injuries.

Okay sure, O'Brien you knew was going to get hurt but Wynne and Sutton? Sheesh.

[Cheeta]

Speaking of spending money, anyone catch that bit about the folding chairs they're selling at the north end. Three hundred seats sold at $75 a pop for the Chicago match and $100 a pop for the L.A. fixture.

That's $52K of "found" money in just 2 matches.

MLSE is claiming they're losing money on TFC this 1st year. And yeah, sure, maybe they are. But I'll bet good money that's only because they're trying to write off some serious capital expenses in one big shot in 2007 and not over a longer period as would be the normal accounting practice on a venture like this.

Anyway, Mo can complain all he wants. I'd say 90% of his player problems are his own doing. What do you expect from a manger with what? 12 games of experience under his belt before he was hired? And a marginal record at that!

I'm not sure if he's suffering from Yallop Disease (want's to play a certain style of play irregardless of his player pool), O'Neil Syndrome (manages a countries "Flag-ship" club but hates that countries domestics for reasons of locker room politics) or is just plain incompetant.

But, in Mo's defence and truth be told he HAS been more than a bit unlucky with some of the injuries.

Okay sure, O'Brien you knew was going to get hurt but Wynne and Sutton? Sheesh.

[Gian-Luca]

I think Mo's decision not to use the DP on Radzinski is Mo's decision though - I don't think MLSE have placed any restriction on that. So I don't think we can pin this one on the ownership. I also recall someone posting comments from Jazic that Radz isn't interested at TFC at this time because they play on FieldTurf, but given Radz current employment status perhaps that will change. Having said that I don't know that Radz is necessarily DP material at this stage of his career.

However, I think it is safe to say that the money hasn't been spent wisely on the rest of roster in several cases, some of them Canadian as well.

[Gian-Luca]

Managed to find an updated salary list:

http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/7_3_07_salary_info_club.pdf

TFC Attakora-Gyan Nana D $ 12,900.00 $ 12,900.00

TFC Boyens Andrew D $ 30,000.00 $ 47,500.00

TFC Braz Adam D $ 67,200.00 $ 74,950.00

TFC Brennan Jim D $ 150,000.00 $ 158,000.00

TFC Canizalez Maycoll M $ 36,000.00 $ 40,000.00

TFC Cunningham Jeffrey F $ 220,000.00 $ 232,500.00

TFC Dichio Daniel F $ 150,000.00 $ 158,125.00

TFC Djekanovic Srdjan GK $ 17,700.00 $ 17,700.00

TFC Dunivant Todd D $ 99,750.00 $ 99,750.00

TFC Edu Maurice M $ 50,000.00 $ 132,500.00

TFC Gala Gabriel M $ 12,900.00 $ 12,900.00

TFC Guzman David M $ 12,900.00 $ 12,900.00

TFC Hemming Tyler M $ 17,700.00 $ 17,700.00

TFC Lombardo Andrea F $ 30,000.00 $ 30,000.00

TFC Lumley Stephen D $ 12,900.00 $ 12,900.00

TFC Marshall Tyrone D $ 142,000.00 $ 149,500.00

TFC Melo Joey M $ 12,900.00 $ 12,900.00

TFC Nunez Cristian M $ 17,700.00 $ 17,700.00

TFC O'Brien Ronnie M $ 240,000.00 $ 258,750.00

TFC Pozniak Chris D $ 90,000.00 $ 95,000.00

TFC Reda Marco D $ 100,000.00 $ 105,000.00

TFC Robinson Carl M $ 300,000.00 $ 315,000.00

TFC Samuel Collin F $ 90,000.00 $ 115,000.00

TFC Sutton Greg GK $ 125,000.00 $ 132,562.50

TFC Welsh Andrew M $ 195,000.00 $ 204,750.00

TFC Wynne Marvell D $ 47,500.00 $ 150,000.00

The number that strikes me the most is 26.....that's how many players are on the roster. We're two players short to begin with.

Samuel isn't making as much as I would have thought, but Marshall is making more than I would have thought. I'm not sure either are holding up their end of the bargain thus far, and the less said about Welsh's salary in that regard the better.

Also, trading Goldthwaite for Dunivant cost TFC a good $70,000 against the cap, and I'm not really sure that TFC are all that better off on the field, and with that hit against the cap, they appear to be worse-off for it.