MLS citizenship rules 'ridiculous'

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Unfortunately, I think Mo did his scouting by reading the V's board as he pretty much signed everyone identified as "sure things" (Sutton, Reda, Pozniak, Brennan and Braz), but then quit and filled his bench with U-20s and slightly older guys whose careers never really took off.

I was going to mention something similar, only was going to phrase it by saying that it appears as though Mo has let the CSA do his scouting for him on Canadian players & signs foreigners that he's either seen on tv in MLS or UK footy broadcasts.

This has been particularly glaring in the case of Adam Braz. He was one of the first signings, not a "well lets sign him to make up the numbers" the way Canizalez's last-minute before the season signing might have been. How can you go from being one of the team's first signings to not getting a start? Why rush out to sign a player that you aren't going to use? The likely answer of course being that Mo thought Braz was good enough to play when he saw him play for Canada but has now changed his mind about him, which is also what seems to have happened with Rich Asante who was also signed to the senior roster at one point & then dropped on the eve of the season. To have such wild variations on talent assessment in such a short time suggests he doesn't really know what he's doing. Hopefully he'll learn, because he's still relatively knew at this. And maybe the biggest problem is that MLSE has him doing too much since he is a coach as well as a GM.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Looks like Mo's comments about the Canadians being "Just Average" made some feel hot under the colar. But IMO, I dont know how else he should have answer that question considering the teams record and the way the playing time has been doled out. The team has allowed the most goals in the league. Speaking of them ( canadian players on TFC) collectivley, how else should he have answered that question (without trying to be politically correct).

If we're talking about candid answers how about this: "The Canadian players are very average, but then so are the salaries we pay them, so we shouldn't be expecting much to begin with. Unlike a few under-achieving non-Canadians I could mention". Because if you look at that salary list I posted in the first page of the thread, it is obvious that the Canadian players are mainly on the lower end of the team's pay scale. Not just the development players, but the senior roster players as well.

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by L.T.

It all depends on where they put the emphasis for development - the way some people talk they expect the 1st team to be used for development of Canadian players. That is NOT the way any professional club should be running their first team (unless their sole purpose is to sell players in order to stay alive). Clubs such as Ajax emphasize development, but not on the pro roster - that is 100% merit-based. A famous quote from someone in the Ajax system (can't remember who):

You need to have a 'top' to your development pyramid. Assuming TFC is an ambitious club, the top is the pro team and not some place in Europe a TFC star goes once they are 'developed'.

If you want to call yourself an elite club, the players must already be 'developed' (either by you or somewhere else) when they reach your 1st team.

That quote is the motto of the youth academy.

Yeah, and I don't mean the first team should be used as a development for Canadian players. The best players from the academy should get their shot at the first team when the time is right. That is how it should be done. So basically, how you described it. It all just depends on if the MLSE is smart enough to do this.

[matthew]

I was worried about it before and now I'm sure, but Mo has no idea what he needed and what he should have been looking for going into this season.

I'm probably sounding like a broken record, but this team need a few good imports, a few key Canadians (and I thought Brennan, Sutton and Reda were a good start), a good handful or more of non-starting, veteran Canadians who could fill in and five or six proven MLS starters to be the core of the starting 11.

Now the real problem for me is that Mo never had a blue print. Before the lists even came out you could guess that big, physical central defenders and hard-working d-mids would be readily available in the expansion draft. Goal-scorers, defenders with pace and creative mids? Not so much.

He says he wants to play 3-5-2 and locks up Brennan. So in theory the left side is secure. He also has first pick and wants Edu, plus there are numerous d-mids who can start in MLS (including Jeff Larentowicz for $17,000). So you should be able to have a veteran and a rookie d-mid (plus another expansion draft guy like Nagamura or you spend $60k and grab Jeff Clarke or someone) and you're set at d-mid.

So what does Mo do? He over-spends for a dmid and a left mid when one of their big signings was a d-mid. He should know the league and yet he doesn't seem to understand the importance of the cap and used the expansion draft to load up on cash to spend on players who have underachieved. Or he's found players who have been decent (Eskandarian and Goldthwaite come to mind) and then he trades them.

They don't secure a proven backup keeper (Franks, Zagar, anyone) when they know Sutton will be going on intl duty, they fail to get a CB with pace to compliment Boyens or Reda or Braz, moving Brennan to do the job.

I like Pozniak, Canizalez and Lombardo as fringe Cdns who can play a role (or three in Pozzy's case) and will contribute over the season and not cost an arm and a leg, but they needed more of them. Instead they're forcing kids like Joey Melo and David Monsalve into action when (IMO) they're not ready. I'm not sure that's good for these guys. Esp. a keeper.

I'm glad they have so many young players from the area, but these 18-year-olds should be playing in the reserves and slowly getting experience.

cheers,

matthew

[Gian-Luca]

Posted elsewhere by rednwhite, but it appears as though the new keeper is Stamatopoulos after all:

http://www.til.no/www/klubben/nyheter/kenny_reiser_til_toronto

Great photo of Kenny - that could be one of the finest we've seen.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by matthew

So what does Mo do? He over-spends for a dmid and a left mid when one of their big signings was a d-mid.

Agreed. It's not that Robinson has played poorly, he's played well but was it necessary to spend that much money on a d-mid, particularly when there were other more affordable options available.

Add that to Welsh, who is largely ineffective, and that's a huge chunk of the salary cap not spent well. It handicapped the team more than any Canadian getting paid $30,000 or less has. The first year hasn't been a disaster & Mo has done some things well - I wasn't expecting TFC to win the cup in its first year or anything. But what I object to in the suggestion in the article & by Mo that everything is the fault of the roster "restrictions" & all things Canadian.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Agreed. It's not that Robinson has played poorly, he's played well but was it necessary to spend that much money on a d-mid, particularly when there were other more affordable options available.

Case in point, two Canadian players who could have helped out in that role played tonight in the Superliga. One of them was at one point briefly TFC property while the other they could have signed as a "discovery" player at the same time as they signed Braz, Reda and Pozniak.

[JPB]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Unless there is any suggestion that the Doctor they took him to was patently un-qualified to make an assessment ...

A competent doctor who is not familiar with the players is less competent in the situation than would be a doctor who travels with the team and is responsible for becoming familiar with each player in the squad.

The complaint that Johnson voiced is the same complaint that Sutton has voiced. Some of this is frustration, sure, but it is also a fact that a national team without a doctor is understaffed. There is no longer an excuse -- especially given the precedent of other players experiencing similair problems on the road with the national team.

Maybe Sutton will be back before end of season but I do not think it is fair to slam Johnson for not having planned for the loss of his starting keeper due to injury. Loss due to international service, sure. I mean, look what happened to Chelsea last year as a very prominent example of the lack of perfect planning for such situations.

-----------

I do think that Johnson is still learning the ropes both as coach and manager -- and both as a manager in this particular league and as a manager in Canada. I want him to raise the standards for how the national team takes care of its players. For the sake of the playes, I do. For the sake of the national team, I do. And, to stand in Johnson's shoes a second, for the sake of the Toronto team, I do.

Regarding the investment made in Robinson, I am all for that decision. He is the right guy to build a team around over the next few yeas and that's as far ahead as Johnson can possibly look. Afterall, his job is on the line during this very short season (just 18 games now and another 18 or so to go) and possibly a brief run in the playoffs. I think he may have erred in underestimating how even this short season can trip up players who nurse injuries -- especially given the Gold Cup and Copa America and U20 tournies all in the same summer. Fortunately, I don't think that the U20 players are nursing anything more than bruised egos (i.e. Lombardo perhaps).

-----------

I dom't think Johnson has an excuse for, say, underestimating the problems associated with the rules for building a roster (from scratch no less) nor for underestimating the known problems with playing on artificual surfaces (not just at BMO Field). He has to take his lumps like any manager should in the MLS.

But I think he is trying to do as good managers do -- trying to take some of the heat off his team and directing attention to other problems outside of the team. Maybe he is not convincing enough, but that's always a problem when it comes to hardtimes in public roles like his.

Johnson could be faulted for trying to do too much with what he has selected on the roster. But I want a manager to err on the side of ambition rather than just trying to stay afloat. It may have backfired on Johnson half-way through the season, but the players will be fit again and the team has looked much better than I had expected for its first season -- and with so little actual pre-season preparations together. He gets credit for all of that, I say, even with the errors he may have made thusfar.

I want a manager to speak out and challenge the CSA, the Men's National Team, and the MLS organization. This is supposed to be the bigtime not the mediocre escapades. When he sets the standard higher, he too has to raise expectations for his own performance, not just that of his players, his team organization, and the league and so forth. I like that he is contentious in his remarks.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by JPB

A competent doctor who is not familiar with the players is less competent in the situation than would be a doctor who travels with the team and is responsible for becoming familiar with each player in the squad.

A competent Doctor should be able to recognize symptoms of a concussion no matter how long he knows the patient, but no Doctor is 100% accurate all the time. This would be true of any team doctor. Perhaps there is an argument to be made the that chance of a misdiagnosis is slightly less with a Doctor who had been with the players for the previous week to see what they are normally like but not strong enough for Mo to be carrying on like this with these repeated threats.

And that still leaves aside the issue that the reports during the Gold Cup are that Sutton received a second blow on the head after they would have taken him to the Miami Doctor. He could very well have been symptom-free at the time of diagnosis. I would like a bit more evidence before I start to agree with Mo that it's okay for him to punish other Canadian players on his roster by refusing to allow them to play & try to stake a place on the World Cup team when they are called.

Also, I don't agree that Mo shouldn't have planned for the possibility of his starting keeper getting injured. Injuries happened all the time, whether on club or international duty. Any The rest of the TFC roster right now is a testament to that. Any manager worth his salt would have planned for that possibility especially with international duty also a consideration. He's not planned for the possibility of a couple of his strikers getting injured either & now we are in a serious crisis up front with just two healthy strikers on the whole roster, one of whom is a selfish player from T&T who doens't know how to pass & the other is a very green young Canuck.

As for Mo challenging the MLS, for the many reasons already cited in this thread, the argument that the roster restrictions are unfair to TFC are very hollow. If Mo feels that way then he shouldn't have gotten rid of Serioux right after claiming him in the expansion draft & sat around while the LA Galaxy signed Kevin Harmse.

[Grizzly]

I agree with pretty much everything Matthew and GL have said. Robinson has not been a poor player but is merely an average MLS midfielder not the top player his salary should bring. If he was making 150 000 I would not have a problem with his performance but we should have two players of his level for 300 000. I think in addition to Mo not knowing what he needed he also didn't know how much he should pay for certain players. Instead of paying inflated wages to lure average Championship players over the pond he should have looked more at other talent sources that were much more cost effective. What exactly prompted Mo to give Robinson twice the salary of Brennan, they have had very similar careers in the Championship with brief sniffs at EPL and both are internationals for nations of similar calibre?

To some extent Mo hasn't done a bad job despite numerous bungles. TFC is doing alright for an expansion team and I didn't expect them to be contenders or even a playoff team in their first year. Yet it seems like Mo does expect them to be playoff contenders from his comments. And seeing as despite his many mistakes and constant roster changes (proof he didn't really know what he was doing a lot of the time) TFC has been decent how might TFC have fared if we had a better, more experienced manager at the helm? Once again I dislike managers who blame the team when they have made numerous mistakes themselves and particularly when I feel the manager has unfairly singled out certain players while overlooking the deficiencies of others.

[Mackenzie]

My big question is why Gansler doesn't have a more central role in managing the team. It looks like he has a real coaching pedigree in the past unlike Mo's half season with New York.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by JPB

But I think he is trying to do as good managers do -- trying to take some of the heat off his team and directing attention to other problems outside of the team. Maybe he is not convincing enough, but that's always a problem when it comes to hardtimes in public roles like his.

I think Johnson is trying to take the heat off himself by his comments not off the team. How does saying the (mostly low paid) Canadians are inadequate and have poor work habits take the heat off the players? The only players he is trying to take the heat off is the high paid foreigners that he signed by mistake or paid too much for. In the Sutton situation he is criticizing the MNT harshly to avoid getting blamed for not signing a credible backup keeper. Johnson is starting to lose my respect by these self-serving comments. He is not being a straight shooter as sometimes is claimed, he is shooting crooked to cover his own ass.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

What exactly prompted Mo to give Robinson twice the salary of Brennan, they have had very similar careers in the Championship with brief sniffs at EPL and both are internationals for nations of similar calibre?

That's a very good question. Those are the sorts of questions that our journalists should be asking Mo. Instead we get an article like the one that started this thread, which states that US has "thousands" of "world class" player to choose from (really?), suggests that Monsalve was at fault for the four goals that an EPL squad put past him (when he could be partly blamed for one at the most) and ignores the fact that TFC has advantageous roster rules for their first few years in comparison to all the other teams, instead suggesting that the rules are actually skewed against us. It suggests that a lot of the Toronto media just aren't savvy enough at this present time, though on the plus side it was actually good to see Molinaro writing that article on Andy Welsh, even if it was somewhat harsh, it was difficult to argue with much of what was said.

I don't want to make it sound like I'm calling for Mo's head (though I do wonder if reducing his responsibilities in half so he can better cope with one of them might be a good idea for next season). He has made some good moves - the Dicho signing was excellent, for both on & off the field. And the trade for Cunningham & Goldthwaite were also good moves, given the latter was only making the league minimum (it's a shame that we've traded him already for a player who I don't think is any better but is making a lot more). And I didn't have a problem with him initially voicing his frustration over what has happened with Sutton & said that when I initially posted that first article. It is the comments since then that have annoyed me, including the suggestion that he's going to punish his own Canadian players who want to play for their country & the events with TFC since then which have somewhat exposed the shortcomings (ie. lack of depth) of the squad that Mo was responsible for putting together.

[An Observer]

This has been an interesting read.

Watching some matches from abroad by getting the via the torrant route and reading the comments on here, I too am not sure Mo is a very good coach at all. First, he signs 4 Canadians early on and he deems two of them are too slow to play. You think he would have come to that conclusion before signing them. I also don't buy it that Reda and Braz are not dedicated players. Reda has played at an equivalent level and stood out. He and Braz are decent if not excellent defenders. When I watch Toronto play, I am consistently surprised at two things. How naive they are defensively. Wynne is terrible defensively and always out of position. Reda and Braz when I have seen them play are very good defensively if lacking in pace. The second thing is how often they give the ball away. This is one thing that I have always liked about Braz. He rarely gives the ball away. He is steady but not spectacular. In my opinion, Mo wants TFC to play at a tempo that is way above their ability. I think he values speed above everything else. But as I have said before, unless you have spectacular centre backs who can cover alot of ground, and good central midfield support, you cannot play with two attacking fullbacks as it leaves you way exposed. So why he didn't keep Braz as a steady right back who will not give away possession, use Reda in the middle, and then compliment by picking up a left back with some speed, is beyond me. It seems he did not scout the properly, and then decided to build a side not utilising his early signings.

I have similar comments on Robinson and Welsh as others....bad signings, poorly scouted, and not really adding value. The same goes for trading Serioux (who could have solved the CB problem) for an international player when he knows at least in the first couple of years he is not going to have access to a huge amount of Canadians.

Finally, if you want to break the bank, why not go after a Radzinski. He seems a very good answer. He is a Canadian and can play up front or on the wing. If you kept Serioux, he could be your Obrien for sure. Then you could have played an all Canadian back line with Brennan, Serioux, Reda, Braz and have Radzinski in front of Braz on the right (which would give you the access to speed on both sides). Those 4 would also be solid defensively. You would then have a choice of Edu and Harmse as you defensive midfielder; with either Robinson or a more offensive guy in the center (what about Grande). A better Andy Welsh on the left, and up front you could pretty much have who they have now. To me, that's a much better side than what they have.

[Gian-Luca]

This article contains more comments from Mo stating that he wants the MLS to change the rules so that TFC can fill up their entire roster with Americans:

http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/OtherSports/2007/08/01/4384399-sun.html

The only way it would happen is if Canadians were not considered imports for the rest of the league. But frankly, I think Mo should stop whining about this & look to his own shortcomings.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

This article contains more comments from Mo stating that he wants the MLS to change the rules so that TFC can fill up their entire roster with Americans:

http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/OtherSports/2007/08/01/4384399-sun.html

The only way it would happen is if Canadians were not considered imports for the rest of the league. But frankly, I think Mo should stop whining about this & look to his own shortcomings.

Since you U-sector supporters have had a fluid relationship with the team, and specifically with some individuals in management, maybe you should make these thoughts known to them. I intend to do so by email with the one person I have been in occasonial contact with.

Because Mo can put who he wants on the pitch, but he can't unfairly attack one of the principles the team is founded on, and with it one of the things that most encourages the fans in the stands, in the same way he could not attack US players if he were obliged to play them on a US MLS team.

Edit: Done, I have written to someone in MLSE management, for what it's worth.

Edit II: And they have already written back. Nice to see how professional TFC is, they have been extraordinary. Seems that Mo was not quoted correctly on all his comments, though the ones regarding his view of the quality of TFC's Canadian players were indeed made.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Edit II: And they have already written back. Nice to see how professional TFC is, they have been extraordinary. Seems that Mo was not quoted correctly on all his comments, though the ones regarding his view of the quality of TFC's Canadian players were indeed made.

As I've just finished posting a rant about this on the usector board (which MLSE staff do read), can you indicate where it was that he was misquoted? The Toronto Sun has published several comments about this now (this is the most recent one, but the article that started this thread was another) and they all seem pretty consistent about Mo's wishes to be able to sign more Americans.

[ochico]

There is an element that is missing in all these dicussions.

A certain player agent,well known in this community, was instrumental in arranging contracts and other goodies way back when the team was still practicing at The Soccer Centre.

More later.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by ochico

A certain player agent,well known in this community, was instrumental in arranging contracts and other goodies way back when the team was still practicing at The Soccer Centre.

More later.

I'll await the "more later" to find out what you are getting at, but I will say for now that the activity you describe is generally what player agent's are supposed to do. On the face of it I'm not really seeing a problem.

[ochico]

Whenever I was present at a TFC event,whether it was a practice,a press conference or one of those pub crawls, this player agent was always huddled in the corner with Mo.

There is no question in my mind that he was suggesting who should be invited to work out and eventually who should be signed.

There is more to my story, but let's leave it at that for now.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by ochico

Whenever I was present at a TFC event,whether it was a practice,a press conference or one of those pub crawls, this player agent was always huddled in the corner with Mo.

There is no question in my mind that he was suggesting who should be invited to work out and eventually who should be signed.

There is more to my story, but let's leave it at that for now.

The only one it could be is Barry McLean, but that is not news. We know he was the agent of many of those signed early, those with Scandinavia experience where McLean has his contacts. So what? That means absolutely nothing, the decision is the coach's in the end, and the clubs, the agent just represents his players. In any normal club at this time of year, or befoe a season starts, they'll get a dozen player agents offering players a day, the phones are ringing off the hook.

Do you think agents are not supposed to do their jobs?

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

As I've just finished posting a rant about this on the usector board (which MLSE staff do read), can you indicate where it was that he was misquoted? The Toronto Sun has published several comments about this now (this is the most recent one, but the article that started this thread was another) and they all seem pretty consistent about Mo's wishes to be able to sign more Americans.

Hi G-L. I tried to email you a response, sent a longish one, but it was lost as it did not go through, got a delivery failure for some odd reason. Could you check your email is the right one here on your profile, or send me a note and I'll answer directly to your correct mail.

Thanks

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Hi G-L. I tried to email you a response, sent a longish one, but it was lost as it did not go through, got a delivery failure for some odd reason. Could you check your email is the right one here on your profile, or send me a note and I'll answer directly to your correct mail.

Thanks

Thanks for alerting me about this - I've now changed the email address to a more current one, which you can that email send to. That should work.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by ochico

Whenever I was present at a TFC event,whether it was a practice,a press conference or one of those pub crawls, this player agent was always huddled in the corner with Mo.

There is no question in my mind that he was suggesting who should be invited to work out and eventually who should be signed.

There is more to my story, but let's leave it at that for now.

Ok, but unless Mo had a gun to his head, it is still up to him to decide who to sign, so in the end the responsibility/blame lies with Mo.

I note that Sean's post on the usector board where he has spoken with Mo about the likes of Occean & Gerba and apparently Mo isn't all that impressed with them. We can also recall that Mo wasn't impressed with Serioux when Lalas signed Adrian to play for New York (Mo called him "adequate") and Adrian was subsequently traded to Houston, where he became a regular starter for the club that won the championship.

So, its tough not to conclude that it isn't the case that there isn't enough Canadian talent to stock up one Canadian MLS team, but rather we simply have a coach who is often less than impressed with Canadian talent that is often well-regarded by other coaches (and not just Canadian ones).

[Macksam]

You mean if he had a gun to Mo's head.