Grizzly Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 How did a player with little MLS experience like Sutton end up with a $125 000 guaranteed salary? I could see him getting a salary in the $70 000 range like Braz with some generous incentive clauses but guaranteed $125 000? He is not that far off Onstad's salary. TFC made him the 7th best paid keeper in the MLS without even knowing how he would perform at this level. That is just poor salary negotiation on Mo's part. I doubt he was making anything close to that type of money with the Impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 The only way I could see it is if he was making close to that sort of money with the Impact & that's what was needed to get him to jump up to the MLS. The roster, as shortened as it is, is also loaded up with too many defenders. We'll see what happens if Brennan & Boyens can't play on Sunday, but up til now, including the reserve players, there are 6 defenders on the roster who aren't playing regularly or at all (Reda, Braz, Hemming - who is injured - Gala, Lumley & Attakora-Gyan). Conversely there are only four strikers on the entire current roster & now only two healthy ones. That means if three defenders go down to injury (Wynne, Boyens & Brennan) they have 6 players who can step in & play - another 3 starters and another 3 subs if need be. 7 if you count Pozniak as well. If two strikers go down to injury, we have two strikers who can start instead and no back-up at all, unless we play someone out of position. That's where the two missing roster spots could have come in handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbailey62 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca The only way I could see it is if he was making close to that sort of money with the Impact & that's what was needed to get him to jump up to the MLS. The roster, as shortened as it is, is also loaded up with too many defenders. We'll see what happens if Brennan & Boyens can't play on Sunday, but up til now, including the reserve players, there are 6 defenders on the roster who aren't playing regularly or at all (Reda, Braz, Hemming - who is injured - Gala, Lumley & Attakora-Gyan). Conversely there are only four strikers on the entire current roster & now only two healthy ones. That means if three defenders go down to injury (Wynne, Boyens & Brennan) they have 6 players who can step in & play - another 3 starters and another 3 subs if need be. 7 if you count Pozniak as well. If two strikers go down to injury, we have two strikers who can start instead and no back-up at all, unless we play someone out of position. That's where the two missing roster spots could have come in handy. Goalies love to play up front! Serge will have a great time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca The only way I could see it is if he was making close to that sort of money with the Impact & that's what was needed to get him to jump up to the MLS. I don't know what his Impact salary was but I can't imagine it was anywhere near $125 000. I remember Braz mentioning he was getting a significant raise over his Impact salary and he is making $67 000. The Impact pays well by USL standards but I doubt they have any players at $100 000 and their highest paid players would certainly be the foreign ones like DiLorenzo not the Canadians. Maybe Daniel can provide some clarification on this. In my opinion there is never any reason to overplay players anyway and if that was the type of money required for Sutton they should have looked elsewhere. It took only slightly more money, $150 000, to sign Jim Brennan, a player with far more experience playing in high level leagues. This type of money could have attracted several other Canadian players who could have been starters removing the need to play and overpay a Canadian as keeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 They seemed to be deadset on getting Sutton and paid the price for him ($100k+ transfer and a friendly). As cornerstone and former league MVP, I'd guess he was making around $40k-$60k with the Impact. Braz was probably making around $30k-$40k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Daniel They seemed to be deadset on getting Sutton and paid the price for him ($100k+ transfer and a friendly). As cornerstone and former league MVP, I'd guess he was making around $40k-$60k with the Impact. Braz was probably making around $30k-$40k. From what I have heard about USL Div 1 salaries, this seems about right. There are very few players in the league making $50k or more. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Macksam I couldn't agree more. You have to get the kids young in order to develop them properly. This would also help the MNT. It ain't the greatest but some really good players occaisionally come out of it. Maurice Edu in my honest opinion is one of our best players and he is an NCAA product. No, absolutely not. That's the attitude that has gotten Canada no where in soccer to begin with. Winning is essential but we must develop and build the talent first. Than everything else will fall in place. How are we going to win without the talent? I really don't think TFC will be a success over the long term if they put development over winning. I'm not certain of this, but I suspect if you randomly asked fans of TFC at a game who their favourite player is, I'll bet most of them pick a non-Canadian. Most fans don't care about the nationality, they want to see a winner. I'll give you my example I've used over and over again. In 2002, the Calgary Storm had 16 year old Nik Ledgerwood starting every game. They had Ryan Gyaki on the bench, and Lars Hirschfeld started some games with them between European tours of duty. There were also U20 players such as Waldo Dutra and Chris Lemire on the club. However, they could not get results, the team drew very poorly, and ultimately ended up under league control by the end of the year. People wanted to see a winner like they did in 2000, when the PDL Storm rolled over the oppostion and got crowds more than double the USL Div 1 side. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Daniel They seemed to be deadset on getting Sutton and paid the price for him ($100k+ transfer and a friendly). As cornerstone and former league MVP, I'd guess he was making around $40k-$60k with the Impact. Braz was probably making around $30k-$40k. That is the type of salary I thought he was making with the Impact also. I don't understand why Mo was so set on getting Sutton. Nothing in his playing history suggested that he would be a star MLS keeper. I think his reviews this year would have to be mixed. He has shown that he can play at MLS level but he has been a pretty average MLS keeper, not a standout by any means. I think this is pretty much what most observers would have expected. His play is much more in line with keepers in the league making 70 to 80 000 than in the over 100 000 range. I also think Mo gave up rather quickly on some of the other Canadian players like Braz and Reda. They may have had a few poor games but I don't think either has really had a full opportunity to show whether they belong in the league. How does a player like Welsh get game after game to show that he is borderline MLS quality when Braz and Reda seem to have no room for error. I think if they played a bit more and their coach showed a bit more confidence in them that their play might improve. I have certainly seen them play well enough internationally that I think they could at least be decent players at MLS level and certainly not worse than Welsh or several other TFC starters this season. It seems when a Canadian doesn't meet expectations Mo bitches about the quality of Canadian players and their work ethics but when a foreigner doesn't or more accurately a Brit doesn't meet expectations Mo doesn't say anything and continues to start him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 In the case of Braz he has had no games at all, poor or otherwise. He was used as a late sub for a few home games, all of them out of position at right mid. I think the only time he played right back was late in the friendly against Benfica. And he's never been tried as a centre-back, which I think he is better suited to anyway given his lack of speed. He has not played a minute of a game since he played in the 2-2 draw against Venezuela back on June 2nd. That means that even if he does play against the Galaxy on August 5th due to so many injuries to his teammates, it will be the first time in over two months that he will have seen any game time, and he's bound to be somewhat rusty. Mo should have at least spotted him some duty, particularly in the Aston Villa match when there were unlimited subs. And if he had done so, Marvell Wynne wouldn't have gotten injured late in the game. I have heard that both Welsh & Samuel were called out in the last press conference by Mo has having not lived up to expectations, but at the same time, I have to agree, there seems be much more of a zero tolerance policy for Canadians who have a bad game or make a mistake than foreigners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly That is the type of salary I thought he was making with the Impact also. I don't understand why Mo was so set on getting Sutton. Nothing in his playing history suggested that he would be a star MLS keeper. I think his reviews this year would have to be mixed. He has shown that he can play at MLS level but he has been a pretty average MLS keeper, not a standout by any means. I think this is pretty much what most observers would have expected. His play is much more in line with keepers in the league making 70 to 80 000 than in the over 100 000 range. Even so, that's by no means the biggest offender. They could have probably signed two or three players instead of Welsh who are just as effective for the amount of money he is getting paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 The Toronto Sun is reporting that it is Josh Waganaar that they are after. Which is fine, except that he doesn't fit the description Mo was giving us about an experienced keeper - that description fits Kenny more than it does Josh. http://torontosun.ca/Sports/2007/07/31/4381902-sun.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca The Toronto Sun is reporting that it is Josh Waganaar that they are after. Which is fine, except that he doesn't fit the description Mo was giving us about an experienced keeper - that description fits Kenny more than it does Josh. http://torontosun.ca/Sports/2007/07/31/4381902-sun.html Interesting and surprising move considering Josh back problems lately (I think he just came back training this week with ADO). But on the other hand I would be extremely happy with this move since I'm still in the opinion that Josh is our best young keeper at the moment and if he can get MLS action for a few games, the better for our MNT goalkeeping situation. BTW, the fact that Tromso didn't hear back from TFC might be an indication that TFC first choice is Josh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktci Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca In the case of Braz he has had no games at all, poor or otherwise. He was used as a late sub for a few home games, all of them out of position at right mid. I think the only time he played right back was late in the friendly against Benfica. And he's never been tried as a centre-back, which I think he is better suited to anyway given his lack of speed. He has not played a minute of a game since he played in the 2-2 draw against Venezuela back on June 2nd. That means that even if he does play against the Galaxy on August 5th due to so many injuries to his teammates, it will be the first time in over two months that he will have seen any game time, and he's bound to be somewhat rusty. Mo should have at least spotted him some duty, particularly in the Aston Villa match when there were unlimited subs. And if he had done so, Marvell Wynne wouldn't have gotten injured late in the game. I have heard that both Welsh & Samuel were called out in the last press conference by Mo has having not lived up to expectations, but at the same time, I have to agree, there seems be much more of a zero tolerance policy for Canadians who have a bad game or make a mistake than foreigners. Just a slight correction re: Braz. He did play right back, coming on for Boyens in the 76th minute of the match with Chivas (in the ill-fated 3-5-2). Not that it changesw the substance of what you were saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by marktci Yeah, what I should have stated is that he hasn't played as an out & out right back in a 4-4-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Jason I really don't think TFC will be a success over the long term if they put development over winning. I'm not certain of this, but I suspect if you randomly asked fans of TFC at a game who their favourite player is, I'll bet most of them pick a non-Canadian. Most fans don't care about the nationality, they want to see a winner. I'll give you my example I've used over and over again. In 2002, the Calgary Storm had 16 year old Nik Ledgerwood starting every game. They had Ryan Gyaki on the bench, and Lars Hirschfeld started some games with them between European tours of duty. There were also U20 players such as Waldo Dutra and Chris Lemire on the club. However, they could not get results, the team drew very poorly, and ultimately ended up under league control by the end of the year. People wanted to see a winner like they did in 2000, when the PDL Storm rolled over the oppostion and got crowds more than double the USL Div 1 side. Jason Ofcourse they would be a success over the long term if they put emphasis on development. What makes you think that player development will result in losing? The example you gave with the Calgary Storm isn't very good as those players weren't developed in the way I'm talking about. What I'm talking about are players getting developed in a state of the art youth academy. That is, if the MLSE is willing to put money into it. Look at teams like Ajax and Sport Lisbon. The reason they continue to be successful is because of their world reknowned youth academies and the endless line of top class players they develop from them. You develop good players, you will win. You try to continue to buy high priced talent, you'll put yourself in a hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly I also think Mo gave up rather quickly on some of the other Canadian players like Braz and Reda. They may have had a few poor games but I don't think either has really had a full opportunity to show whether they belong in the league. How does a player like Welsh get game after game to show that he is borderline MLS quality when Braz and Reda seem to have no room for error. I think if they played a bit more and their coach showed a bit more confidence in them that their play might improve. I have certainly seen them play well enough internationally that I think they could at least be decent players at MLS level and certainly not worse than Welsh or several other TFC starters this season. It seems when a Canadian doesn't meet expectations Mo bitches about the quality of Canadian players and their work ethics but when a foreigner doesn't or more accurately a Brit doesn't meet expectations Mo doesn't say anything and continues to start him. Mo mentioned Reda as an example of Canadian training intensity (or lack of). He thought Reda played well in Norway, and when he got injured early on and then had a few poor games that he would have expected him to respond strongly. But, unfortunately he's shown himself to be "in a shell", which i think means "slump" in Scottish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.T. Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Macksam Ofcourse they would be a success over the long term if they put emphasis on development. What makes you think that player development will result in losing? The example you gave with the Calgary Storm isn't very good as those players weren't developed in the way I'm talking about. What I'm talking about are players getting developed in a state of the art youth academy. That is, if the MLSE is willing to put money into it. Look at teams like Ajax and Sport Lisbon. The reason they continue to be successful is because of their world reknowned youth academies and the endless line of top class players they develop from them. You develop good players, you will win. You try to continue to buy high priced talent, you'll put yourself in a hole. It all depends on where they put the emphasis for development - the way some people talk they expect the 1st team to be used for development of Canadian players. That is NOT the way any professional club should be running their first team (unless their sole purpose is to sell players in order to stay alive). Clubs such as Ajax emphasize development, but not on the pro roster - that is 100% merit-based. A famous quote from someone in the Ajax system (can't remember who): quote:The 1st team MUST win. The others MAY win. You need to have a 'top' to your development pyramid. Assuming TFC is an ambitious club, the top is the pro team and not some place in Europe a TFC star goes once they are 'developed'. If you want to call yourself an elite club, the players must already be 'developed' (either by you or somewhere else) when they reach your 1st team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 Mo mentioned Reda as an example of Canadian training intensity (or lack of). He thought Reda played well in Norway, and when he got injured early on and then had a few poor games that he would have expected him to respond strongly. But, unfortunately he's shown himself to be "in a shell", which i think means "slump" in Scottish. Which is weird because Reda looks like the most intense player in the warm-up sessions prior to each game. While a lot of his teammates are seemingly having a lark, he always looks deadly serious (something that Eskandarian also used to mention in his blog early on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Molinaro doesn't spare any words ripping apart Welsh in this article - ouch! http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/molinaro/2007/07/toronto_fc_needs_to_get_rid_of.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca I have heard that both Welsh & Samuel were called out in the last press conference by Mo has having not lived up to expectations, but at the same time, I have to agree, there seems be much more of a zero tolerance policy for Canadians who have a bad game or make a mistake than foreigners. Yes but compare this oh so nice calling out of Welsh to what he is saying about the Canadians: "I don't think he's played the way he should be. I felt early on in the season he did okay but as of late he's been in a shell and he hasn't done anything … He's certainly under-achieved," Johnston told reporters. I don't mind Johnson being outspoken if he is both fair and admits to his own mistakes but I don't think this is the case. The Canadian players may not be as intense in practice as Mo likes but considering 2 of the 3 Brits are not all that intense during actual games why is it always the Canadians who are getting criticized? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadasBest Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Welsh has been pretty bad. The problem is that TFC are not going to invest heavily in big name players at this stage of the game. It's also a business and providing the fans are selling out BMO field, they will not feel much pressure to spend money on players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrennanFan Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 TFC should have had a Canadian coach who new what players in the pool to approach. I take it Mo thought Braz, Poz, Reda, and Sutton were all first choice canadian players due the amount they played in 05 and 06, but really everyone here knows they are not starters. Mo should have fought tooth and nail to get DeRo. That was his first mistake. Mo should have spent real money on up and comers like Nakajima, Gerba, Occean, Hainault, Gyaki, Johnson, and Stamatopolous. Should have kept Serioux injury or not. And a Canadian DP like Radz, or Stalteri to play on the right wing. A Canadian coach is key. I think even the traitor Yallop would have built a much better canadian team. Gerba Nakajima deRo Johnson Poz Harmse Brennan Serioux Hainault Wynne Sutton ...this team would be at the same price range than the current team and would be much much better. Throw in a Radz, Stalteri, Hume or Simpson and you have a winning team. Robinson, Welsh, OBrien, Cunningham, Dunnivant, Samuel, and Marshall are overpaid signings who are not producing, the money spent on them could have gotten much better Canadian players. Mo only wanted Canadians as filler players not deserving real money, and now he bitches that they are not good enough. You get what you pay for Mo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Well, I for one figured that Sutton, Reda and Braz could all start and that Poz would be a useful utility player. I am not sure that Reda has had a fair shake at it, nor Braz, although if Mo wants attacking fullbacks, then Braz really doesn't fit that mold. Sutton hasn't been great, but he hasn't been terrible either - at least in the games I have seen. Unfortunately, I think Mo did his scouting by reading the V's board as he pretty much signed everyone identified as "sure things" (Sutton, Reda, Pozniak, Brennan and Braz), but then quit and filled his bench with U-20s and slightly older guys whose careers never really took off. Mo has done a terrible job with his midfield. I can live with the Serioux for O'Brien trade as I am sure they never really had a good line on Jamie Peters. Welsh and Robinson have been poor poor choices, while Edu, I think, is a good find (but as a young player there are going to be inconsistencies in his performance). Mo's intial striker selection was poor as well. Indeed I posted that it was a huge gamble at the time, but he has sorted that, to his credit, although the depth is still lacking as has been pointed out. I see Reda stepping up if given the chance, and Brennan able to replace Welsh on the left. But Mo still has to get a line on some quality Canadians and be willing to pay for them. One thing TFC HAS to do though, is get a good academy in place. It is an unfortunate reality that the lack of professional opportunities in Canada means that unless a Canuck can go overseas to make a living - which means being paid better than 50-60% of MLS starters - his soccer choices peter out at NCAA. Toronto has to find the best Canadian youth players in Canada (not just metro toronto, although that will be a good portion of them) and develop them through. That likely means setting up a residency program. Then they can bring through a stream of players able to step up. They also have to understand that they can get decent Central Americans pretty cheaply and spend their money on quality Canadians, a significant SI to run their attack from the midfield, and fill in with cheaper but still quality latin help. It is going to be like the CFL. You win with quality Canadians so you build your team around them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Which is weird because Reda looks like the most intense player in the warm-up sessions prior to each game. While a lot of his teammates are seemingly having a lark, he always looks deadly serious (something that Eskandarian also used to mention in his blog early on. To be honest, i've never watched Reda in the warmups (usually scoping out chicks in the stands [:I]) Could be refering to his physical fitness or rehab? Not intense enough in his weekly prep. work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan Mo should have fought tooth and nail to get DeRo. That was his first mistake. Mo should have spent real money on up and comers like Nakajima, Gerba, Occean, Hainault, Gyaki, Johnson, and Stamatopolous. Should have kept Serioux injury or not. And a Canadian DP like Radz, or Stalteri to play on the right wing. Some of these suggestions I agree with, especially with Gerba at the present time, but some of them were not realistic. They could fight tooth & nail to get DeRo all they want but I don't know that Houston would ever be interested in giving him up, they run their entire offense around him. He's easily one of the best & most important players in the league. Johnson has also indicated that he has absolutely no interest in returning to play in the MLS. Radz also was said to be disinterested in the league & playing on Fieldturf at this point, and I'm not sure about spending DP money on a right back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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