MLS citizenship rules 'ridiculous'

[Gian-Luca]

Yes, that's what I meant, I just stated it awkwardly.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by ochico

Whenever I was present at a TFC event,whether it was a practice,a press conference or one of those pub crawls, this player agent was always huddled in the corner with Mo.

There is no question in my mind that he was suggesting who should be invited to work out and eventually who should be signed.

There is more to my story, but let's leave it at that for now.

The only thing I find strange about this story so far if true, is that Mo would meet player agents at pub crawls for fans.

[Canuck Oranje]

I believe Barry MacLean is Mo's agent so it is not all that surprising that they be together. However, the fact that Mo seems to be signing primarily McLean's clients or those of the agency he is involved with is a little disturbing. It is a potential conflict of interest if nothing else.

I will echo the views that the use of the salary budget has not been well thought out.

I will say again that the strategy should be to sign the best Canadians possible within a budget and then fill in with internationals. If Americans are considered internationals, why do we limit ourselves to Americans and a few UK and Caribbean players who either played in the US or UK?

How much would Ian Hume or Josh Simpson cost cap-wise? Or Patrice Bernier? I am not saying that all of them would be affordable but if 2 or 3 at between $200,000 - $300,000 would no doubt yield Canadians of at least the quality of Welsh or Robinson. After all, they do sell their playing services on the same market in Europe. I think Edu, one their lower paid internationals, is probably the player with the greatest amount of potential and probably is already one of their best.

As for internationals, most who have spent time around the pro sport know that the UK is the most expensive local player market. For example, you could probably get roster full of Brazilian league starters in their mid 20s for sponsorship in getting Canadian citizenship and a $50,000/yr. There are other places were players play for less. Actually, Colangelo of the Raptors, more or less, has taken the strategy of finding new talent in hidden places (ie. Europe).

My main point is that TFC's roster limitation is based on Canadians and salary cap so you manage these constraints.

We also have to admit that MLS is not an elite league. There are at least a dozen leagues around the world that are superior. The quality of international players that MLS teams are looking for (outside of designated playes) are readily available. It's time for TFC to get creative.

On the excuse of being an expansion team, it doesn't hold much water when you play in a mid-level league. There are teams in mid-level leagues around the world that turnover their team almost every year and have more success. This is not a single elite league like the NBA or the NHL where it would be difficult to find new quality players that haven't already been playing in the league.

Finally, an ironic thought. Mo says the Canadians he has are mearly "average". Most would assess that the internationals that TFC has on their roster are also "average". It then follows that Mo's qualities as a coach and General Manager are also "average" because the team overall is "average" for its league.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

I believe Barry McLean is Mo's agent so it is not all that surprising that they be together. However, the fact that Mo seems to be signing primarily McLean's clients or those of the agency he is involved with is a little disturbing. It is a potential conflict of interest if nothing else.

I wasn't aware of that, & yes, that doesn't sound good. You'd like to think that the players are being signed purely on merit, not because they have the same agent as the coach.

[Alberto7]

quote:Originally posted by matthew

I was worried about it before and now I'm sure, but Mo has no idea what he needed and what he should have been looking for going into this season.

They don't secure a proven backup keeper (Franks, Zagar, anyone) when they know Sutton will be going on intl duty, they fail to get a CB with pace to compliment Boyens or Reda or Braz, moving Brennan to do the job.

Wow, he sure missed the boat on the backup keeper. Firstly, he signs Jon Busch, a capable seasoned veteran and then cuts him leaving only college keeper Tomer Chensinski who he keeps on for a couple of weeks before cutting him as well. Then he brings in an emergency keeper for a couple of games (Reynolds) before signing Djekanovic. When Sutton goes down to injury, Djekanovic starts a couple of games and plays ok so Johnston does the improbable and plays the emergency keeper now backing Djekanovic. When Reynolds is injured, he brings in an 18 year old(Monsalve) because he is unhappy with Djekanovic's play. So now he finally signs a proven backup in Stamatopoulos. Just how many keepers does Johnston want to dress for Toronto this year? You are right Matthew, Johnston has very little clue what he is doing(I'm not even going to discuss his starting lineup for the first couple of games and subsequent multiple trades).

So let us recap. Toronto FC has now played 18 games and we have had 7 keepers dress/play/train with the team with a 8th one on the way:

Sutton

Busch

Chencinski

Reynolds

Djekanovic

Pardo (another emergency keeper)

Monsalve

Stamatopoulos

I know that MLS rules are complicated withsenior internationals and amercian players, etc. but give me a break, any one of us with an ounce of good sense could do a better job. If it was up to me, I would have kept Busch from the beginning and had a third young keeper (Monsalve or someone)train with the team.

[Canuck Oranje]

I believe I read that in a press report a couple weeks back but I can't remember which of the newspapers had said that.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/article.jsp?content=20060818_174435_5868

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I wasn't aware of that, & yes, that doesn't sound good. You'd like to think that the players are being signed purely on merit, not because they have the same agent as the coach.

[jpg75]

Let's not forget Jon Paul Piques also trained with the team back in training camp. And also Craig Forrest had a run out if we're getting technical...

[ag futbol]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

I believe Barry MacLean is Mo's agent so it is not all that surprising that they be together. However, the fact that Mo seems to be signing primarily McLean's clients or those of the agency he is involved with is a little disturbing. It is a potential conflict of interest if nothing else.

I will echo the views that the use of the salary budget has not been well thought out.

I will say again that the strategy should be to sign the best Canadians possible within a budget and then fill in with internationals. If Americans are considered internationals, why do we limit ourselves to Americans and a few UK and Caribbean players who either played in the US or UK?

How much would Ian Hume or Josh Simpson cost cap-wise? Or Patrice Bernier? I am not saying that all of them would be affordable but if 2 or 3 at between $200,000 - $300,000 would no doubt yield Canadians of at least the quality of Welsh or Robinson. After all, they do sell their playing services on the same market in Europe. I think Edu, one their lower paid internationals, is probably the player with the greatest amount of potential and probably is already one of their best.

As for internationals, most who have spent time around the pro sport know that the UK is the most expensive local player market. For example, you could probably get roster full of Brazilian league starters in their mid 20s for sponsorship in getting Canadian citizenship and a $50,000/yr. There are other places were players play for less. Actually, Colangelo of the Raptors, more or less, has taken the strategy of finding new talent in hidden places (ie. Europe).

My main point is that TFC's roster limitation is based on Canadians and salary cap so you manage these constraints.

We also have to admit that MLS is not an elite league. There are at least a dozen leagues around the world that are superior. The quality of international players that MLS teams are looking for (outside of designated playes) are readily available. It's time for TFC to get creative.

On the excuse of being an expansion team, it doesn't hold much water when you play in a mid-level league. There are teams in mid-level leagues around the world that turnover their team almost every year and have more success. This is not a single elite league like the NBA or the NHL where it would be difficult to find new quality players that haven't already been playing in the league.

Finally, an ironic thought. Mo says the Canadians he has are mearly "average". Most would assess that the internationals that TFC has on their roster are also "average". It then follows that Mo's qualities as a coach and General Manager are also "average" because the team overall is "average" for its league.

Great post. It's also worth noting that the Chicago Fire won the league in their expansion season. Not that my expectations are that high, but it shows what's possible with good management.

[putkaputka]

Mo doesn’t get it – I think it should be put in words he would understand –

Mo, shut yir mooth, ya shell-suit American wanna-be.

Aw ye worry aboot is putting the blame oan Canadians that youse signed yirself.

Get yir haunds ootay wee Andy Welsh’s arse, dat wee poof.

Mo, yir nae running a youth club!

Ken the score, ya radge!

[AvroArrow]

To complain about your roster limitations after you just used up one of your SI spots on a player like Collin Samuel seems a bit odd. There were a number of Canadian equivalent players out there (eg. Gerba).

If you have limited SI slots, you should use them wisely.

[matthew]

quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

Great post. It's also worth noting that the Chicago Fire won the league in their expansion season. Not that my expectations are that high, but it shows what's possible with good management.

Chicago drafted Kevin Hartman, Danny Pena, Manny Lagos, Zach Thornton, Diego Guttierez and Francis Okaroh in the expnansion draft.

They traded Hartman and Pena to Los Angeles for Jorge Campos and Chris Armas.

Armas is still their captain. Guttierez is still in the league and has played 250 games. Thornton was keeper of the year that season.

They also signed Ante Razov as a free agent. Again from LA.

For senior internationals they added Peter Nowak, Jerzy Podbrozny, Roman Kosecki and Lubos Kubik. Plus Campos.

Now that's some good stars aligning kind of skill and luck. But they found SIs they could afford, picked up some of the best young players in the league (Armas, Razov, Thornton) for nothing and built a solid, long-term foundation (Armas, Guttierez, Thornton and Razov played a combined 32 years with the club).

That's how you build an expansion team.

cheers,

matthew

[JPB]

quote:before I start to agree with Mo that it's okay for him to punish other Canadian players on his roster by refusing to allow them to play & try to stake a place on the World Cup team when they are called.

He hasn't tried to punish the players.

If he actually did punish his players because of the deficiencies of the national team or of the CSA, I would find loads wrong with that. He hasn't done so.

He hasn't threatened to do so. In fact, I think you may have read more negativity into his comments than is plausible.

As fans, we don't have to agree with the coach/manager all of the time to enjoy the end result. Today I watch a TFC team that responded to the public criticism. Maybe a coach for a big team in Canada ought to be prepared to dish out a little tough love in public once and again.

As for the competency of the doctor, diagnosis is just one part of the scenario. Surely you are not defending the lack of a team doctor for the men's national team.

And, as I said, Sutton has voiced the same complaint. Should his coach say nothing further on the matter? Should he reject that public complaint? I do not think a professional would or should. Johnston said he wants to make a difference on this point.

As for planning for injuries, I meant the sort of injury that could end a player's season -- and possibly his career. There is no way to perfectly cover for that sort of thing in terms of building a roster. But having consistent medical support is one of the standards of pro sport today and I don't agree that the national team should settle for sub-standard in this regard. Nor should the national players who play for pro teams.

Sutton's coach is supporting his injured player and his coach promises that he plans to do so again the next time the national team comes with a request for members of his squad. I see nothing wrong with the TFC playing a role like that in Canadian soccer. I'd expect any of the other MLS coaches with players on their rosters who play for Canada and for other national teams. Would you expect less of the coaches of US or Mexican players, for example? It is not like the CSA or the men's national team are spotless.

----------

Today I think the CBC coverage of the game with LA included several TFC players speaking on behalf of their team. This included Lambardo, Dichio, Brennan, and O’Brien. Johnson had his say earlier when he publicly criticized; today he let the players speak and has clearly put the onus on them to perform and to be publicly accountable for their performance. This is the way that a good coach/manager protects his team by challenging them. He doesn't win the games for them and I think Johnston is the sort of coach/manager who understands that very well. Today the moral victory won by TFC is a team victory and they now seem to have pulled out of whatever slump they had been playing in. That's good news given the long haul ahead of them still.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by JPB

He hasn't tried to punish the players.

If he actually did punish his players because of the deficiencies of the national team or of the CSA, I would find loads wrong with that. He hasn't done so.

He hasn't threatened to do so. In fact, I think you may have read more negativity into his comments than is plausible.

I don't agree. The upshot of his comments is that the only people who would suffer if he carried out his threats are Canadian players who want to play for the national team who wouldn't get a chance to stake their claim to a roster spot, spots that get more & more competitive every year.

Punishment is not likely the intent, but it would be the effect.

[JPB]

What threats did he make?

He complained about the lack of a team doctor with the National team on road trips. He did not say he would refuse releasing players. But I think the players need to be backed-up on this and the TFC should be publicly pressing for higher standards. If not, why not?

[JPB]

In the article that started this thread, Dean McNulty injected loads of stuff that is not directly attributable to Johnston. Most of the article is McNulty's opinion, not Johnston's.

Johnston was quoted as having said that the players among the reserve pool of goalkeepers were not on the level he wanted for TFC.

He did not criticize the general pool of Canadian talent; he referred to the goalkeepers who are contracted with the league for emergency use as emergency backups based on MLS approval game-by-game.

A goalkeeper who would be open to making a deal to play on THAT basis would probably not be among the higher level players. What Johnston was quoted as having said does not dump on the temporary pool either. His was a statement of fact.

Sure, maybe there are players in that pool who could surprise. They usually sit on benches in hope of getting a shot.

Reynolds performed very well before he injured himself. Johnston had good words for him -- but not on the basis of the guy being American. That was Reynolds' first professional start. The youngster, Monslave did well, too, and Johnston praised him -- but not on the basis of the kid being Canadian.

Johnston did complain that he felt handicapped by having to treat potential American goalkeepers as international signings. I think that was more about Johnston seeking a quick solution and being stymied. It is not like there is an overabundance of high quality goalkeepers prepared to come to TFC this summer as a stopgap.

McNulty later reported that Johnston looked at signing Wagenaar but not from the pool available under extreme hardship rules. Johnston gave Wagenaar a serious look, reportedly, in part because he's Canadian -- and under 25 and so his signing would not have required trading an international.

There was chatter about at least eight players on a list of possible signings.

Johnston eventually got Stamatopoulos on a deal for the rest of the season, not based on MLS game-by-game approval. At age 28, Stamatopoulos is a proven quantity at a higher level with the National team and in league play in Sweden and Greece and lately in Norway. TFC might later acquire him from Tromso on a buy-out deal. Or Stamatopoulus could return to Norway.

I hope he stays at TFC, but not just because of his passport.

The problem was not about replacing Canadians with Americans. It was about finding a remainder-of-season solution that would help settle the team down while Sutton got all the rest and medical attention needed to recover from his head injury. I think TFC got more than that with Stamatopoulos. He certainly doesn't handicap the team.

I think it is too easy to read too much negativity -- or even anti-Canadianism -- into the comments Johnston made in the context of his reluctant search for a new fulltime goalkeeper. Johnston signed a talented Canadian so his actions speak louder.

[JPB]

Later, George Gross also injected his own opinion into an article about Johnston's view of things. It was NOT Johnston, but Gross, who called the current starting line-up "a bunch of under-talented strangers."

Johnston was quoted as having said: "It's tough to watch the substitutes for nine players, some of whom just aren't good enough. It's not easy to replace the whole side of your team from the goal out."

Based on performance, I think it is hard not to disagree that some of the substitutes have not shown themselves to be good enough. At least not yet, as indviduals, and not yet as part of a coherent team. The inexperienced players need more experience and development to become good enough. Current circumstances are giving them both.

Before a team becomes a winning team, the indivdiuals have to become a team with high expectations. You expect, you achieve, and you believe. It is virtuous circle. Sometime you start with belief, sometimes achievement precedes expectation, but it all hangs together. I am glad that Johnston has not been afraid of the sacred cow of Canadianism. That does not make him ant-Canadian.

The other more experienced substitutes needed a public rebuke and it is right that they be reminded that more was expected of them. Johnston's words were not particularly harsh. And I don't see him denying his own part in the team's fortunes, good or bad of late.

It was Gross, not Johnston, who said that "others are not pulling their weight" and, even at that, Gross did not say that Johnston said that the Canadian players, in particular, were lazy.

Johnston also said: "because of our rash of injuries, we may have to resort to a 4-5-1 (defensive) system [...] What it means is that I'm satisfied with 13-14 players, but I need to be satisfied with four or five more."

So which of the players were among the 13-14 and which were among the 4-5? That's perhaps where the discussion is rightly focussed. Just Canadians in the 4-5 -- I don't think so.

When a team appears to be on the brink of a crisis, or in the midst of a spiral, a manager is wise not to aim his public criticism on just this or that player. Better to let the players sort out whose performance has been marginal and whose has been satisfactory. It usually is no mystery. The captain has a lot to do in that regard. Johnston's public words, I think, helped Brennan (a Canadian, of course) to do his job which goes over and above playing well on any given day.

Johnston has also acknowledged the poor performance of Welsh. Considering that earlier in the season Welsh was highly rated, and not just by Johnston, I think the blame for poor individual performance rests more with Welsh than with Johnston.

Johnston: "I don't think he's played the way he should be. I felt early on in the season he did okay but as of late he's been in a shell and he hasn't done anything … He's certainly under-achieved."

Welsh sat on the bench for most of the game this past weekend.

Gross quoted Johnston as having said: "I'd like to see the league allow us, as a Canadian team, to sign any number of Americans (like the all the U.S. teams get to do) and as many Canadians as we want to."

That does not read like Johnston was dissing the Canadian players who'd be available for TFC should the MLS rules change. (Not that Johnson has the pull to impose such changes.) Given the context of recent performances, it reads like an outright challenge to the TFC squad -- something like, "whatever the rules are, I want the best players on the field. And I want the best from everyone."

Nor does it read like a threat to punish Canadian players. Maybe he should have said that he wanted the rules changed so that he could sign *fewer* Canadians than he wanted to sign?

The US-based teams should be so lucky.

Especially, given TFC's most recent up tempo performance against LA.

The defensive tide of the "Canadian Shield" lifted all canoes on the TFC side. (Sorry for mixed metaphors).

------

Johnston should take his lumps, and I think he does, because he is definitely a rookie coach and it shows.