Vancouver Sun Whitecaps Stadium Article

[Vancouversoccerman]

'Caps owner needs a lesson in economics

Iain MacIntyre, Vancouver Sun

Published: Tuesday, March 07, 2006

Citizens of Vancouver, now is the time to mobilize and take action.

The corporate development beast is among you, ready to devour your neighborhood -- or at least a railyard popular with, well, hopper cars and exotic wildlife like pigeons and field mice, which surely are endangered somewhere.

The Vancouver Whitecaps are trying to build a downtown stadium on Burrard Inlet.

With their own money.

Be vigilant. Be wary. Be angry. This is completely unacceptable.

Privately financed?

It's an outrage. What are taxpayers to think?

What sort of precedent does this set next time someone wants to build a transit line/convention centre/Olympic venue/stadium/hotdog stand in this town?

We'll be a laughingstock, mocked everywhere by billionaire owners of sports franchises accustomed to extorting stadia from taxpayers.

This is no way for an advanced civilization to behave.

Arthur Griffiths tried this more than a decade ago with General Motors Place and swore he'd never do it again. Eventually, Griffiths will be stuffed and displayed behind glass at the Harvard School of Business and future tycoons will point and say in hushed tones: 'So that's the one. He's the guy who built a stadium without tax money. Poor fool."

Now there's another Vancouver guy. Greg Kerfoot is the dot.com zillionaire who's been photographed as often as a spotted owl -- perched on Sasquatch's head -- but is afflicted with a very public addiction to soccer. He saved the Whitecaps. Now he wants to build a stadium for them above the CPR tracks north of Water Street.

He has spent $20 million on land and the 15,000-seat stadium could cost another $60 million.

It's not like he's going to refuse government money, but so far he hasn't really demanded any. In fact, it seems Kerfoot and the Whitecaps have asked for remarkably little.

The city is doing all the asking and telling.

Three years ago, the city asked him to consider building a stadium on the False Creek flats, then refused a year later to sell him land for it. Kerfoot found a better site and bought land last summer.

In October, Whitecaps' president John Rocha and general manager Bob Lenarduzzi announced their vision for the site. City council immediately imposed an extraordinary six-month review process on their plans.

This review includes four public consultations this week. These began Monday at the Woodwards Building, and continues 3-8 p.m. tonight at the Storyeum lobby on Water Street, Wednesday (2-8 p.m.) at the Harbour Centre lobby on West Hastings, and Saturday (10-4 p.m.) at the Vancouver Public Library's central branch promenade on West Georgia.

An independent consultant retained by the city at the Whitecaps' expense makes his report to council in May and, if favourable, Kerfoot and the Whitecaps can look forward to a 12-18 month process for zoning and issuing development permits.

By contrast, planning and funding for a 20,000-seat stadium in Toronto came together in a month last fall and work is underway for that venue to be ready for soccer's 2007 youth World Cup. And, by the way, that stadium's $72.8-million cost is being subsidized by the City of Toronto ($19.8 million), Ontario government ($8 million) and Ottawa ($27 million). Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, which gets a new stadium for their expansion Major League Soccer franchise, is contributing only $8 million.

Shame on Kerfoot for keeping his hands in his own pockets. His reward? If all goes well, he'll have a stadium sometime in 2009, built in roughly the same time frame as the $2-billion RAV transit line, and about two years too late for the junior World Cup.

"It's fair to say that by the city initiating discussions with our owner in 2003, we had hoped to be much further ahead than we are," Lenarduzzi said. "But we respect the process. It is a big week for us because at the end of it, it should provide clarity to what the actual concerns are. Most people you talk to feel like, 'What's the problem?' So it's important for supporters to make their support known."

Because, god knows, the activist groups opposed will make their feelings known. Politicians may brag about Vancouver being world-class, but we are nothing if not provincial. And for good reason.

Designed to be the most transit-friendly stadium in North America, soccer fans will create enormous foot traffic around Waterfront Station. And Kerfoot's plans to build a stadium with "green" technology and British Columbia products will drive up the cost of lumber and deprive someone in Whistler of a beam for their great room.

And the panhandlers in Gastown will be forced to grow their businesses and trade their paper coffee cups for bigger coin receptacles, such as Humvees.

Actual issues include post-game crowd noise, parking and Kerfoot's long-term plans for other parcels of the trainyard.

But no building on Water Street will be knocked down. Even the trains will be unaffected -- running in tunnels beneath the project.

"I'll meet any group that has questions," Rocha said. "We've already been contacted by some groups and so far [the meetings] have gone really well. Traffic, we can address [and] the impact on the neighbourhood. We feel there are no significant issues we can't overcome."

Except the lack of public financing so far.

It's a blight on us all.

imaci16@hotmail.com

[Ivan]

What a great article. Love the tone. Surprised G-man hasn't contributed any of his infinate wisdom.

[Cheeta]

Sums things up quite nicely. Don't know anything about Vancouver but you shouldn't dispell how much effect a project like this can have on a neighbourhood, for bad or good.

That being said, being from Winnipeg I know a thing or two about rail yards, both the active and inactive type and in all truth I can't see how a stadium of any sort could be a further detriment to most any neighbourhood.

Does seem like it's going to take an awful long time though.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Ivan

What a great article. Love the tone. Surprised G-man hasn't contributed any of his infinate wisdom.

This is a privately funded venture. It's the way it should be done.

This ain't pogey park. this ain't corporate welfare. This ain't some supporters group calling itself "the Union" while the club they support fires building staff who'd actually dare unionise.

Now that IRONIC.

[Winnipeg Fury]

Fantastic !

Let's hope the Whitecap fans are out in force.

[Ivan]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

This is a privately funded venture. It's the way it should be done.

This ain't pogey park. this ain't corporate welfare. This ain't some supporters group calling itself "the Union" while the club they support fires building staff who'd actually dare unionise.

Now that IRONIC.

That didn't stop you from slamming Saputo's Montreal Stadium.

[Daniel]

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Ivan

That didn't stop you from slamming Saputo's Montreal Stadium.

Yeah, Who could ever forget that long discussion ( for lack of a better word) from last summer. G-man; the guy who doesn't like stadiums if they are publicly funded or privately funded.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Yeah, Who could ever forget that long discussion ( for lack of a better word) from last summer. G-man; the guy who doesn't like stadiums if they are publicly funded or privately funded.

Aside from all of that, the frustrating thing from a TO perspective is when you look at the information that is available from Kerfoot on his stadium website...plans, renderings, etc......testimonials, etc....and ticketing programs you would almost think that it was the Vancouver stadium that was being built with taxpayer money and not the Toronto one. The level of transparancy in Vancouver is high considering it is a privately funded project that is not expected to open for a few more years. The Toronto project is marked by a distinct lack of information and, yet, it is almost all funded by tax dollars and is expected to be open next year.....very bizarre.

[mcaout]

Looking at the renderings, the stadium is in a great location, and its design is really nice, if a little cookie cutter. To bad the stadium couldn't hold 20+ but it doesn't look like there's a lot of room to muddle around with larger stands.

As far as the funding goes, whatever gets the stadium built and operated the best should be first choice. I like the idea of having multiple groups funding the project, a mix of private and public. But this also results in compromises, like maybe artifical turf. With this stadium it sounds like Kerfoot can just do what he likes as far as what purpose the stadium ends up fullfilling.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

What I was bemoaning was the welfare money saputo got to keep the team afloat in it's dark days. I also thought the location was lame (been done with the AutoStade) and the idea of a monorail linking the site with a distance metro station at a cost of close to 500 million tax payers dollars laughable and sad. But it seems that idea is dead in the water as I write this and so is Saputo Stadium due to the fall out with the CSA.

I also stated that Molson was a perfect venue for the club as it seats 20k. The new Saputo park will seat 13K a mere 2K more than the CRC. And with reality of spending 13 million to get extra revenue on 2000 extra seats-- any new money would have to go making the 13 million back you just spent on the stadium.

I also stated that 13 million to build the park was pretty low figure as well- and that most likely would never get built unless the taxpayer ponied up some serious coin. And I guessing Joey was expecting some coin from the CSA for hosting U-20 WC games...

Has Saputo put forth the 10 million for a MLS team and used Molson Stadium (It'll make a great venue for the U-20 WC since Cheese Park won't be ready)And it'd be great for the MLS, they enter a market with a team with an 11K per game average unlike Toronto with it's 2500 a game market.

[Calgary Boomer]

I don't think the Impact would get 20,000 for its games in USL or MLS. You'd also have to share the stadium (and the football lines) with the Alouettes...and guess who would get first crack at schedule dates? (Not to mention paying a lease, and not controlling concessions etc)

I also think Saputo stadium WILL be done in time for July 2007, as it's mostly a pre-fab design, with room for expansion down the road.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

I don't think the Impact would get 20,000 for its games in USL or MLS. You'd also have to share the stadium (and the football lines) with the Alouettes...and guess who would get first crack at schedule dates? (Not to mention paying a lease, and not controlling concessions etc)

I also think Saputo stadium WILL be done in time for July 2007, as it's mostly a pre-fab design, with room for expansion down the road.

The Als play 8 home games. The location would be the best on the continent. Remove the lines and Molson becomes on the top 3 soccer stadiums in North America.

I think the Impact would draw 20K a game if they went the MLS route. The city of Montreal is behind the team. It is right now, the best pro market in Canada.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

The Als play 8 home games. The location would be the best on the continent. Remove the lines and Molson becomes on the top 3 soccer stadiums in North America.

I think the Impact would draw 20K a game if they went the MLS route. The city of Montreal is behind the team. It is right now, the best pro market in Canada.

I would have no problem with the Impact at McGill but I am an outsider and speak strictly from my limited knowledge of the stadium. A drawback would be the permanent football lines though. Yes, they can be painted over in green as was done for that women's international a few years back and it looked better than the washed off lines in Ottawa but I'm wondering what that does for costs.

db

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

It is right now, the best pro market in Canada.

With fans like G-Man, how could it fail?

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

But what more in the way of information do you want? Please do tell me as I would like to know? This is simple little stadium with grass that is being built. Not a nuclear power plant.

Those who clamour for more information are those who, for one reason or another, dont want to see the the project go through. In any such instance the " more information" angle is just an excuse because it delays and hinders the planning process of any project.

The fact that there more regulatory red tape for a privately funded project doesn't speak well for that particular jusridication.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

This post is a classic example of the ways of a city that should be acting like the de facto capital of Canada but instead shows a totally small-town, backwater mentality. Asking for more information about a multi-million dollar stadium is "an excuse" to hinder planning processes?

You would have been happy as an environmental consultant in communist block Slovakia with that atttitude.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

This post is a classic example of the ways of a city that should be acting like the de facto capital of Canada but instead shows a totally small-town, backwater mentality.

Of course, if Toronto acts like the "de facto capital of Canada", it will be berated for its sheer arrogance. Well, folks make up your minds on how you want Toronto to behave, lol.

Anyway, can't wait for 2007 I'm so excited!

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

You make a lot of logic leaps there.....like I said, I am impressed with the information on the Vancouver page...information like.

...renderings....we are stuck with one sketch that many people say is not the final one...just want to know what we are building, what it will look like, etc. since construction has, sorta, commenced you would think someone knows what it will be like.

....seating/ticketing.....Vancouver already has information that tells people what sort of premium seating might be available. As a soccer fan that also controls a relatively large entertainment expense account that is spent on Leaf/Raptor/Blue Jays/Argos/Golf....it would be nice to know what the plans are for this stadium and what the costs might be for ticket packages/seat licenses. Strange as it may seem, we will enter our 2007 budget planning process in June/July....if they are not out with package information by then, we may have to say....ah well, maybe in 2008.

All I am saying is that the stadium that is not scheduled to open for 3 years already has way more info. out there than the one that is supposed to open next year. I am way past saying don't build it (I lost that battle) but since we are just about a year away from opening, I would love to know what is going to open and how I get in.....to me it is bizarre that this information is not out there yet....it is bizarre that a fan group has to open a web page about the team when the owners have several web pages of their own that they could open pages on...etc etc etc.

Not calling for a delay. I would, one day, like people to explain what decisions were made here and how....but that can come later...now I just want to know what we are getting.

[Richard]

The Whitecaps have already taken deposits on boxes and seasons ticket packages but this is part of their campaign to garner support for constructing the stadium and stickhandling it through the approval process which is not a done deal by any means. I don't think MLSE has that issue with the TO stadium so there is not quite the same pressure. In other words, direct comparisons on that score are not valid.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

You make a lot of logic leaps there.....like I said, I am impressed with the information on the Vancouver page...information like.

...renderings....we are stuck with one sketch that many people say is not the final one...just want to know what we are building, what it will look like, etc. since construction has, sorta, commenced you would think someone knows what it will be like.

....seating/ticketing.....Vancouver already has information that tells people what sort of premium seating might be available. As a soccer fan that also controls a relatively large entertainment expense account that is spent on Leaf/Raptor/Blue Jays/Argos/Golf....it would be nice to know what the plans are for this stadium and what the costs might be for ticket packages/seat licenses. Strange as it may seem, we will enter our 2007 budget planning process in June/July....if they are not out with package information by then, we may have to say....ah well, maybe in 2008.

All I am saying is that the stadium that is not scheduled to open for 3 years already has way more info. out there than the one that is supposed to open next year. I am way past saying don't build it (I lost that battle) but since we are just about a year away from opening, I would love to know what is going to open and how I get in.....to me it is bizarre that this information is not out there yet....it is bizarre that a fan group has to open a web page about the team when the owners have several web pages of their own that they could open pages on...etc etc etc.

Not calling for a delay. I would, one day, like people to explain what decisions were made here and how....but that can come later...now I just want to know what we are getting.

Good heavens, I am in agreement with TOareafan again[:0]

no need for delays, but MLSE and the CSA need to start letting people know the score here. Vancouver is far ahead on the transparency score.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

But as I said, its a simple little stadium. Or more accurately, a pitch of grass with some stands. Its not a steel smelter a petroleum refinery or an airport. What possible environmental concerns could there be with that. The only public concern that I can reasonably think of would be financing and don't know what other questions that there are to be answered in regards as to who is paying what.

Sure the extreme example might be the centrally planned economies of eastern Europe, but on the other hand, if we all had to go through endless assessments, studies and bureaugratic red tape for even a simple project like this, then you might argue that we would be still moving around in a horse and buggy in this day and age. Besides what are these studies and consultations that are so imperative? Seems to me that they consist of nothing more than a bunch of uninformed NIMBY's and other special interests packing a town hall with aim of protecting their own personal interests at the expense of the of the larger community.

It took about ten years to get a subways line with only 5 to 6 stations built. Whereas ( for a while ) in Montreal, it looked like there was a new subway station openning up every month. Why is that?

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

Good heavens, I am in agreement with TOareafan again[:0]

no need for delays, but MLSE and the CSA need to start letting people know the score here.

I'm sure they will let people know the score once everything is in place. I also expect that announcements will be timed for maximum publicity value (ie. closer to the World Cup).

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

Good heavens, I am in agreement with TOareafan again[:0]

no need for delays, but MLSE and the CSA need to start letting people know the score here. Vancouver is far ahead on the transparency score.

Twice in a month....good grief....there are campfires and boy scouts singing kumbya (sp?) all over the nation!

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

The Whitecaps have already taken deposits on boxes and seasons ticket packages but this is part of their campaign to garner support for constructing the stadium and stickhandling it through the approval process which is not a done deal by any means. I don't think MLSE has that issue with the TO stadium so there is not quite the same pressure. In other words, direct comparisons on that score are not valid.

Perhaps not but there is also no real obvious reason why they would not be broadcasting the sort of information that I am looking for.

There is another post on here about some of the Lynx owner's shortcomings and how they appear amateurish in their operation of the team. One of the things that people expect with the MLSE and MLS combination is a slick, professional, marketing approach to really sell pro soccer. They, at least in the first few months, have not brought that about.

Compare and contrast that to cities that have obtained, for example, NHL franchises. Two or three years before the team hits the ice they have front offices, uniforms and ticket plans. The whole idea being to build momentum and sales. Remember the Jays? The first game at the Ex was a huge event here not so much because this a great baseball town (it is an ok baseball town) but because the whole city had been "trained" to be waiting for that day.

MLS and MLSE are not, seemingly, doing anything to build that level of excitement.