Toronto Stadium News

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

I have always been pro-MLS Toronto/Stadium/WYC, but maybe you have not paid attention. This goes way back, and I am talking about years. Some of you with "memories", as I have heard them called, will recognize this. And I had never gotten into my current irritation mode with the TO clique before some of you guys started attacking other posters, insulting them, harassing them, and doing it in a school-boy pack, just because they did not agree with you or expressed their disagreement with scorn, cynicism, heckling and irony, however beneath your literary standards.

What I do not get is how noone on this board from TO was even able to get us the remotest bit of early inside information on the question, noone seemed at all clued in, noone lobbied actively for either MLS or Stadium or WYC final with any degree of scoop instinct, but there is much jumping on the bandwagon later and acting as if you'd been there all along. Which is fine, but at least admit you were clueless, are clueless now, and most likely will be deliberately kept in the dark for a good long while. You are not really there guys, on a board that prides itself on its early warning system, you were the last to figure out what was going on, after the CSA, after MLSE, after City Hall, probably after a few of the players from past attempts to get pro soccer going in TO.

With the exception of the bit about you not being anti-MLS in the past (which I can at least vouch for), most of this is a re-writing of history from your perspective once again. First let me get the major inconsistency out of the way - in the very recent past you have made some personal accusations at me, accusing me of defending the CSA's plan to bring MLS to Canada so as to not rock the boat with all of these supposed professional relationships I apparently had with the CSA, MLSE or whoever. Now you are saying that all of us, including myself, had no inside information or contacts with these same organizations with what was going on and are criticizing us for it. Well which one is it? Would it be too much to ask you to at least be remotely consistent with your attacks? Pick the 2nd one, because while I don't really see why not having inside information that we can share to the world is something to criticize about, at least the fact that we haven't all secretly been in cahoots with the CSA, MLSE etc. is at least accurate.

Many of the Toronto area posters have been advocating going with MLS in Canada since the summer of 2002 and have been advocating for a new Stadium in Toronto for much longer than that, so the claim of "bandwagon jumping" on these points is completely inaccurate. True, much of the discussion in this regard has not been on this forum but in person, at pubs or at games, but that is because that is where most of our discussion takes place - in person, not in cyberspace, a reality which you don't seem to be aware of. As for the WYC final, most of the guys I've spoken to would rather give Edmonton the final in return for more Canada games, but don't blame the CSA for putting the final in Toronto. Not exactly bandwagon jumping either.

Secondly any "attacks" from Toronto posters have almost always only been directed at posters who have attacked Toronto posters to begin with, and in direct response to their attacks. Other people who have disagreed with the idea or how it has been executed but stated their opinions in a reasonable and rational manner (people like Gordon or TOAreaFan for example) have had people who defend the idea debate with them, but have not been subject to abuse or personal attacks. People who have come on here just to troll continuously have been reacted to differently, and not just by Toronto area posters but by posters from right across the country. I'm not sure why you expect that a group of people who have been insulted and chastised with, as you put it, "scorn, cynicism, heckling and irony" should not be allowed to respond in kind. Of course when one group of posters is significantly larger than the other (and I think we are being charitable by calling G-Man a "group") there are going to be more posts going in one direction in return to the opening salvo that has been fired in the larger group's direction. That is also totally natural on a free-flowing board such as this one. What else would you expect, that posters here delegate one person to respond to G-Man's posts just to make it even up in numbers? If you think there is some group decision to go after certain people you are being paranoid - it is simply a group of similar-minded people with similar interests responding in a similar way as a result. Nothing more, nothing less.

Oh, and by the way if you are again referring to Luis with your comments, you are talking about a poster that has not accepted any of the many numerous invitations to come out and meet the rest of us for the past 6 years! Even the most gullible 6 year old in the world would be questioning whether he truly exists at this point. Poking fun at his non-appearance is quite natural and hasn't been done mean-spritedly - and it is also something that you have done recently on two separate occasions (going as far as suggesting he is actually a painting on the wall of the Duke of York). Its okay for you to poke fun at his continual non-appearance, but not okay for others? Of course you have stopped doing it now that you have taken a holier-than-thou viewpoint on this, seemingly to use it as a stick to beat Toronto MLS supporters with.

The reason why so many people are assuming you are anti-MLS & anti-Toronto stadium is because that's the only logical reason they can think of for your recent behaviour towards Toronto MLS-supporting posters, and that's because the attempted justification you use in posts like this one are almost totally divorced from reality. If it was somehow your honest impression of what was happening fair enough, but now that you've been told that what you thought has been the case isn't so, don't you think its about time you dropped this shtick?

[john tv]

You know G.L after last week end I realized thaththere are some really screwed up people on this board.Here we are trying to form some solid impression, trying to be a supporters team and trying to feel united and yet these jerks could not care less. It really woke me up again. what is wrong am I stupid or did i have the wrong upbringing or do i have no idea what it means to do your own thing no matter what,or are your there to show you don't give a shidt.

I really am out of touch with the new world I guess, sorry guys!

[Guest Domi Rulezz]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Some of you with "memories", as I have heard them called, will recognize this. And I had never gotten into my current irritation mode with the TO clique before some of you guys started attacking other posters, insulting them, harassing them, and doing it in a school-boy pack, just because they did not agree with you or expressed their disagreement with scorn, cynicism, heckling and irony, however beneath your literary standards.

This board has a 'memory', too.

What it revealed to me is that your 'memory' is stricken with a common ailment known as 'Historium Revisionista', which usually happens when one wants to alter the goings-on of certain events in order to make themselves look less guilty.

While you claim that you were slagging anyone and everyone involved with the Toronto Supporters' movement in defence of some poor, defenceless souls that they had been attacking, the reality is that you "had never gotten into" your "current irritation mode with the TO clique before" the following innocuous little comment by Gian-Luca which questioned the Almighty Jeffrey S.'s use of 'fact' (a.k.a. Jeffrey's opinion) in His posts:

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

This is a "fact" is it? Did you look it up in an encyclopaedia or something?

The above quote can be found in the Stupidest Post thread (http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8737&whichpage=3), and was the catalyst for a huge weeks-long slagfest by Jeffrey on Gian-Luca and some other Toronto-area posters, probably due to the Spanish government cutting off his supply of Xanax, or perhaps it was the Cialis funding that was revoked.

Eventually that Toronto-focused vitriol was also directed towards Grizzly, Daniel, and just about anyone else who pointed out the utter craziness of Jeffrey's descension into G-Man territory, worthy of its own 'R.I.P' thread that made DoyleG such a star over at BigSoccer.

[Elias]

I don't understand why people keep saying "Toronto is spending $10-million and gets a $60-million facility so it's a good deal". The city of Toronto is going to run a deficit (in its operating budget for the city, not the stadium) and go crying to the province for more money. The province is going to go crying to the feds for more money. It's all tax money. Public money is paying for 75% of this (depending on what numbers you use).

I also don't understand why some people think to seem MLSE are a bunch of idiots. It's a billion dollar corporation with hundreds of employees. I wouldn't be surprised if they already had a naming deal. They already have relationships with most of the potential naming partners like banks and other major corporations who can afford the price tag. Do you guys think they just put $20-million on the table and shruged their shoulders and said whatever happens, happens. I'm sure they went to all their partners and made proposals before they signed the stadium deal.

The problem is the main deal was I believe "Appendix D" of the contract that was never publically released. Without that, there really is no way to know what exactly the deal is.

The other problem is that MLS owning the team and operating the stadium, they can play with the numbers to suit their purposes (and allows others to create BS numbers). But a team would not be possible if they didn't operate the stadium, like basically every team in the world says.

THE INVESTMENT

1. The MLS team - this is MLSE's problem. Any future return (annually or the value of the team) will be 100% MLSE's. So whatever they invest in it, I really don't care (when it comes to the stadium deal).

2. The naming rights - this is basically separate. MLSE pays $10-million and can sell them for whatever they want. This seems like a good deal but not that good. See below.

3. Operating the stadium - to me, this is the main problem. MLSE puts in $8-million for the right to operate the stadium. Who is responsible if it loses money? Who keeps the profits? Who pays for any major repairs that might happen over the next 20 years? Do others (Lynx, CPSL, Argos, universities) have rights to use the stadium for the exact same deal the MLS team has (this is a public asset)? If no why not? Who negotiates the deal? MLSE? Why? It's not exactly fair to others. What counts as team revenue, and what counts as stadium revenue? Meaning like stadium sponsorships or concessions, etc. And again, do other teams get the same deal (if MLS team gets 50% of the concession sales at it's games, do other teams also get 50%)?

The article says the naming rights could be worth $2.5-4 million a year which over 20 years = $50-80 million. I believe the ACC gets $40-million over 20 years. Even taking into consideration the WYC, a soccer stadium in Toronto is not worth more.

Plus they have expenses in fulfilling the obligation to the sponsor. It's not pure profit. Still, lets say they basically bought the naming rights for $10-million cash today, even a $60-million return in 20 years is only about a 9% return a year (not exactly, it's less).

This other part of $40-million for stadium sponsors is only $2-million a year (and that's the high end). I'm assuming these revenues will pay for the stadium upkeep, employees, security, renovations, repairs, improvements, expenses such as electricity, water, seat replacements, paint jobs, etc.

Now, they do get money from private boxes, concessions, parking(??), and all the other events I'm sure they are planning on holding there.

The other thing, I think somebody said something about the why should the city risk more by keeping the naming rights and selling them. The city did a pretty good job selling the Ricoh. Not only that, there are other companies out there who handle this kind of thing. And that's the biggest problem with this whole deal, it was not handled properly from the beginning. There is no reason why the naming rights could not have been separate from the operating deal, or at least the city gets a slice of the naming rights as opposed to outright selling them. Granted, the major problem was time, but that's not an excuse for the politicians.

On the other hand, "everybody" knew the CSA had the money to build a stadium. I didn't exactly see a lineup form anywhere.

[Franky]

Jeffrey, we are not clueless, we just kept our poker e-face. [8]

I said in a previous post, maybe you did not read it carefully, here in T.O., we learn how to scam other canadians carefully. We didn't want it to be known that we, ultras/t.o. voyageur members have been in those same boardrooms and witnessed all the decisions, actually, took part in some of those decisions.[]

yah, i haven't been here for a while, Lynx management literally turned me off. Aside from that, solidifying my career that will allow me to purchase LOTS!! of season ducats for T.O.'s MLS team, new house in the burbs, a couple of kids (future Ultralettes) to boot (hopefully, playing under Pellerud's helm one day) and now, as some one put it best at the meeting, its time to get a flower-potted-plant and worry about that now.

bandwagon??? naaah....those are Leaf fans, i should know, i am one.

"TO fans have been notoriously atrocious in defending the game in the city, and if anything the biggest risk for the MLS team and its future viability is the small town clique mentality of those who claim here to be most ardently defending it."

**how/where do you base this on????? from just our posts????? talk about being outright skewd.......nice try, though.

Thanks G-L, you pretty much sum up everything for me.

Robert, no mafia implications here please, actually, its "La MaFia", so, don't insult my heritage. [xx(]

here in Canada, the government/politicians are just corrupted officials that we normally elect, biotch about, then run them out of office by the next election, just like in italy, no different.

They steal or use up our tax dollars, at will. we don't send them to jail, we just elect them out [?][?][?][?]

[DJT]

<mod> Is there a reason why both sides can't just ignore each other in this very silly debate? The forum is becoming unreadable not because of Jeffrey, not because of G-Man, not because of the Toronto supporters — because of everyone involved in carrying on with this stuff. How much does it take to turn the other cheek? Do the mods really have to be more forceful, or can everyone be a bit more mature about all this? We are supposed to be here to discuss soccer, not each other. </mod>

[RealGooner]

OK, cheek turned. So...how will the resignation last nite of Real Madrid's president affect the Toronto stadium?

[403 Addick]

So I guess nobody has any new pictures eh... Okay, here's an idea! Every Friday how about some poster from Toronto goes to the stadium site and takes a few pictures. It will give everybody an idea of how the stadium is taking shape and when the stadium is complete we'll have a very nice photo time-line to look back upon! It does not have to be Fridays but the same day every week until the stadium is complete. Sorry if this idea has already been stated.

[isa]

hey guys

so no new pics of the hole in the ground lol.

sure hope mlse knows what they are doing.

hope this thing is ready on time.

[Franky]

try the thread started by Crazy Yank http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=8949

hope that helps.

[G-Man]

whoa is me now. Torontians get in line. I think the first nationals have experience some real negativity in their history.

A MLS Toronto team brings nothing to the Nation. Where an Olympics games at least has people from one coast to another watching it. It also allows some 250 athletes from coast to coast to spend their entire lives dreaming of the moment where they put on the maple leaf and give it all for their country. Where no one in their right mind who grows up juggling a ball, dreams of playing for the MLS Toronto insert silly ethnic name here. Okay "United" will do.

The saddest part of this is that the CSA kinda has a national soccer park with a pitch no real soccer nation would ever allow it's national team to play on cause it's plastic.. Lets just hope that MLSE doesn't schedule a Sum 41 concert on a day that Canada has a home date during WC qaulifying...uppp off to Kingston we go again..

Scarf wearers UNITE. The fact that anyone would compare the olympics to a league that gets ZERO attention in it's host country is a little scary.

[isa]

thanks for the link franky.

the design looks ok.

just hope it gets done on time.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

whoa is me now. Torontians get in line. I think the first nationals have experience some real negativity in their history.

A MLS Toronto team brings nothing to the Nation. Where an Olympics games at least has people from one coast to another watching it. It also allows some 250 athletes from coast to coast to spend their entire lives dreaming of the moment where they put on the maple leaf and give it all for their country. Where no one in their right mind who grows up juggling a ball, dreams of playing for the MLS Toronto insert silly ethnic name here. Okay "United" will do.

The saddest part of this is that the CSA kinda has a national soccer park with a pitch no real soccer nation would ever allow it's national team to play on cause it's plastic.. Lets just hope that MLSE doesn't schedule a Sum 41 concert on a day that Canada has a home date during WC qaulifying...uppp off to Kingston we go again..

Scarf wearers UNITE. The fact that anyone would compare the olympics to a league that gets ZERO attention in it's host country is a little scary.

For crying in a bloody bucket G-Man, get a life!

The country is getting a brand new state-of-the-art 20,000 seat soccer specific stadium - when was the last time one of those was built anywhere in Canada? In addition we will have our first franchise in what is recognised by FIFA as the top north American pro soccer league, a franchise that will be operated by the most successful professional sports management organisation in the country.... and you can't stop whining and complaining about it!

I live in British Columbia yet I am thrilled we are getting this new stadium and team in Toronto, it can ONLY be good for soccer in Canada and I wish the team and its owners every possible success. I am a Whitecaps supporter but I will most definitely also be following the fortunes of the Toronto MLS team and rooting for them and yes, even watching their games on TV should I have the opportunity.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

For crying in a bloody bucket G-Man, get a life!

The country is getting a brand new state-of-the-art 20,000 seat soccer specific stadium - when was the last time one of those was built anywhere in Canada? In addition we will have our first franchise in what is recognised by FIFA as the top north American pro soccer league, a franchise that will be operated by the most successful professional sports management organisation in the country.... and you can't stop whining and complaining about it!

I live in British Columbia yet I am thrilled we are getting this new stadium and team in Toronto, it can ONLY be good for soccer in Canada and I wish the team and its owners every possible success. I am a Whitecaps supporter but I will most definitely also be following the fortunes of the Toronto MLS team and rooting for them and yes, even watching their games on TV should I have the opportunity.

I'm sure the chances of being able to watch a Toronto MLS game live will be vastly better then being able to watch a live broadcast of the Canadian Men's National Team playing a match. It's too bad there won't be more than a token Canuck lining-up for Toronto, otherwise Toronto's MLS team might even be justified in what Torontonians love to do with their teams. That is implying that their Canada's team. Just think, if they fielded only Canadian players we wouldn't need the CMNT, and Toronto would really be Canada's team. Thank God that will never happen, or I'd have to support Toronto.[xx(] It's bad enough that I suspect Italy will win this summer's World Cup after their impressive results against Holland and Germany they're my favorites.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

For crying in a bloody bucket G-Man, get a life!

The country is getting a brand new state-of-the-art 20,000 seat soccer specific stadium - when was the last time one of those was built anywhere in Canada?

Don't want to dispute your point too much but I think it is a bit of a stretch to call our new simple stadium without real grass a "state-of-the-art" soccer facility.

It might be appropriate for the level of importance our game has in Canada, it just could not by any stretch be called state-of-the-art.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Don't want to dispute your point too much but I think it is a bit of a stretch to call our new simple stadium without real grass a "state-of-the-art" soccer facility.

It might be appropriate for the level of importance our game has in Canada, it just could not by any stretch be called state-of-the-art.

I think I have to agree with you here, 'state of the art' is a stretch, 'appropriate for soccer's stature in canada' more appropriate.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

I think I have to agree with you here, 'state of the art' is a stretch, 'appropriate for soccer's stature in canada' more appropriate.

Wow, I think my weekend can commence on a good note....RealGooner and I found some ground for agreement!

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Wow, I think my weekend can commence on a good note....RealGooner and I found some ground for agreement!

DJT will be loving this!

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Don't want to dispute your point too much but I think it is a bit of a stretch to call our new simple stadium without real grass a "state-of-the-art" soccer facility.

It might be appropriate for the level of importance our game has in Canada, it just could not by any stretch be called state-of-the-art.

Pick on one phrase in my post to whine about sure, but how about addressing the main point?

[Rocket Robin]

quote:

Scarf wearers UNITE. The fact that anyone would compare the olympics to a league that gets ZERO attention in it's host country is a little scary.

Yeah that would be me. With so many people saying that Toronto should just upgrade Lamport or use Rogers Centre when the Blue Jays are out of town and not want Toronto to get any government money I brought the Olympics into the discussion.

Why couldn't the bid for Canada to host the Winter Olympics have been in the western city that's already held them? Hmmn Calgary!

Why if folks remember what great condition Lamport Stadium was because they played there in the 1970s, what about the same argument that Calgary 1988 facilities are not obsolete? Well without using the argument that the IOC wouldn't have wanted them there again.

Who'd have been around 22 years later to remember that turn 14 of the bobsled run turns 180 degrees to the left or the mountain still goes down at 45 degrees in the wind? Well change the markers.

Actually I'm glad Vancouver got the Olympics (actually more so than Toronto summer games) so no insult to Western Canadians but I'm just tired of reading the same old posts AFTER the new stadium is approved.

Certain sportscasters in my own city didn't believe in funding it yet there's plenty of money for cultural facilities like opera house, ballet house, renovated museum. Biggest fake is Toronto Stars Dave Perkins living the high life over in Italy two weeks ago while whining about Canada hosting the Olympics for years.

There will be plenty to belittle Toronto about in the years to come once the team on the field loses their opening game.

[hamiltonfan]

any more real updates on the stadium? New pics of construction? Does anyone no when the MLSE will offically announce everything?

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Pick on one phrase in my post to whine about sure, but how about addressing the main point?

What are you talking about? The main point of your post was that you thought that G-Man was whining too much.....didn't seem that I, or anyone else, should have too much to add about your opinion on another poster.

Within that, there was the "state-of-the-art" reference. I don't think hyperbole (on either side) makes this discussion any better...so I just pointed out that what we are getting is an appropriately simple stadium.....nothing state-of-the-art about it.

[Richard]

"what we are getting is an appropriately simple stadium.....nothing state-of-the-art about it."

Oh, and you have seen the final blueprints?

[BusanBhoy]

Just to clarify - we were told that, while final plans are not exact, what we have seen released so far is very very close to what the final product will be. End of debate.

SING UP THE UNION!

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

"what we are getting is an appropriately simple stadium.....nothing state-of-the-art about it."

Oh, and you have seen the final blueprints?

Just the same ones you saw before you made your "state-of-the-art" declaration. So take a look at those renderings and tell me if you really believe that is "state-of-the-art". I think it is a nice little stadium appropriate for the game's status in Canada/Toronto.

That's all.