narduch Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 2 hours ago, Kent said: They have already stacked the deck in Liga MX and MLS's favour with the most recent CCL format. Those leagues have an advantage in the CONCACAF Club Index that they use for seeding the CCL. Since Liga MX and MLS are guaranteed spots in the CCL, but Central American (and the CPL champion) teams have to qualify through CONCACAF League, so that means they don't necessarily have a representative to accumulate points every year. For example, if one year you have a team from each of CPL, Honduras, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Panama each qualify for CCL, their countries gain points for their CONCACAF Club Index (there are 4 points minimum for participation). But then the following year maybe Costa Rica gets 3 spots and Panama gets 3 spots. That means Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, and the second Canadian spot all get 0 points that year, which hurts their Club Index. Further to that, any points gained by the 2nd and 3rd seeds of those countries would go to CRC2, CRC3, PAN2, and PAN3, which will only ever exist again if those nations have 2 or 3 representatives in the same CCL, so even if the CRC3 team goes on a miracle run and wins the whole tournament, those points are virtually flushed down the toilet for next year's tournament, unless Costa Rica has 3 qualified teams again. They may just throw their coefficient system in the garbage now. Will be interesting to see how they do it The 22 team preliminary round shouldn't even have seeding. Just make it that you can't play a team from the same country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingston Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 12 hours ago, Kent said: They have already stacked the deck in Liga MX and MLS's favour with the most recent CCL format. Those leagues have an advantage in the CONCACAF Club Index that they use for seeding the CCL. Since Liga MX and MLS are guaranteed spots in the CCL, but Central American (and the CPL champion) teams have to qualify through CONCACAF League, so that means they don't necessarily have a representative to accumulate points every year. For example, if one year you have a team from each of CPL, Honduras, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Panama each qualify for CCL, their countries gain points for their CONCACAF Club Index (there are 4 points minimum for participation). But then the following year maybe Costa Rica gets 3 spots and Panama gets 3 spots. That means Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, and the second Canadian spot all get 0 points that year, which hurts their Club Index. Further to that, any points gained by the 2nd and 3rd seeds of those countries would go to CRC2, CRC3, PAN2, and PAN3, which will only ever exist again if those nations have 2 or 3 representatives in the same CCL, so even if the CRC3 team goes on a miracle run and wins the whole tournament, those points are virtually flushed down the toilet for next year's tournament, unless Costa Rica has 3 qualified teams again. Is that how it works, though? I may be wrong, but I believe the coefficient points stay with the slot, not the country. So, for example, there may be three Guatemalan teams one year but their points go to, say, Central American Cup winner, runner up, and semi-finalist slots not to GUAT 1, 2, and 3. Costa Rican teams may occupy those slots the next year, but again, the points go to the slot, not to CRC1, 2, and 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 59 minutes ago, Kingston said: Is that how it works, though? I may be wrong, but I believe the coefficient points stay with the slot, not the country. So, for example, there may be three Guatemalan teams one year but their points go to, say, Central American Cup winner, runner up, and semi-finalist slots not to GUAT 1, 2, and 3. Costa Rican teams may occupy those slots the next year, but again, the points go to the slot, not to CRC1, 2, and 3. It is how it works now. There isn't a Central American slot, or a CONCACAF League qualifier spot. It goes to the country/slot. So if Herediano advances from CONCACAF League to Champions League (and lets say they are the only Costa Rican team to do so) they will be in the CONCACAF Champions League in the CRC1 slot. However, it is important to note that the points accumulated by CRC1 in Champions League is kept separate from the points accumulated by CRC1 in CONCACAF League. So really there are 2 sets of coefficients for the slots that compete in both competitions. The Caribbean teams are the exception. They use Caribbean spots for coefficient purposes, as opposed to having a JAM1 spot for a Jamaican team, etc. Although I did read last night that if a Caribbean team was to advance to Champions League via CONCACAF League (this has never happened), they would have their own country slot (so JAM1, HAI1, etc). The team that qualifies for CCL by winning the Caribbean Club championship though uses CCC1 though. Below is an example from the 2022 Champions League. You can see the slot names of all the teams that qualified (CRC, HON, GUA all representing Central American teams). You can see how CAN2 had 0 points despite accumulating points in the CONCACAF League. CCC1 and CAN2 show a great example of the unfairness of the system. CCC1 is gifted a spot in the CCL by rule. They get 4 points every year just for being awarded that spot. CAN2 has to earn their way into CCL by qualifying through CONCACAF League, which they just did the first time for this tournament. So CAN2 has a bunch of 0's for not being in Champions League, and CCC1 has 20 points by default, and 1 point for earning a draw one time over a span of 5 years. narduch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 10 hours ago, narduch said: They may just throw their coefficient system in the garbage now. Will be interesting to see how they do it The 22 team preliminary round shouldn't even have seeding. Just make it that you can't play a team from the same country I wouldn't be surprised if they throw away the coefficient system. But I'm not sure why you think the preliminary round should be unseeded. I still wish the number of spots each nation gets was based on results, likewise who gets the bye past the preliminary round. Like, the Caribbean clubs haven't done anything to deserve equal footing with the Central American clubs, but they both get 1 spot directly in the round of 16. If they do keep it, they probably need to do some tweaks. It gets clunky when a lower slot (ex: CRC3) ends up with enough points for a higher pot than a higher slot (ex: CRC1). Currently what they do is make it so a lower slot for a country can't be in a higher pot than a higher slot for that same country. Maybe what they need to do is just give the most points earned by a country's club to it's highest slot. So for example, if Montreal qualifies as CAN1, and Cavalry as CAN2, but Cavalry does better in the CCL than Montreal, Cavalry's points could go to CAN1 and Montreal's to CAN2. narduch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 17 minutes ago, Kent said: I wouldn't be surprised if they throw away the coefficient system. But I'm not sure why you think the preliminary round should be unseeded. I still wish the number of spots each nation gets was based on results, likewise who gets the bye past the preliminary round. Like, the Caribbean clubs haven't done anything to deserve equal footing with the Central American clubs, but they both get 1 spot directly in the round of 16. If they do keep it, they probably need to do some tweaks. It gets clunky when a lower slot (ex: CRC3) ends up with enough points for a higher pot than a higher slot (ex: CRC1). Currently what they do is make it so a lower slot for a country can't be in a higher pot than a higher slot for that same country. Maybe what they need to do is just give the most points earned by a country's club to it's highest slot. So for example, if Montreal qualifies as CAN1, and Cavalry as CAN2, but Cavalry does better in the CCL than Montreal, Cavalry's points could go to CAN1 and Montreal's to CAN2. Considering you can now have up to 8 Mexican teams or 8 teams form the US it would be a bit silly to try to salvage the current coefficient system. Far easier to just seed the Preliminary Round based on how you qualified: Its 11 team pots. You could do something like this: -Voyageurs Cup winner -CPL Winner -MLS Cup runner up -Liga MX runner up -CRU runner up -Central American runner up -US Open Cup winner -give the 4 remaining spots to Liga MX or MLS sides based on standings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpursFlu Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 I wonder how this seems to the average fan? With this new competition and the revamped CCL my head is spinning. This is all way too convoluted johnyb, Jedi Ram and Kent 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 24 minutes ago, SpursFlu said: I wonder how this seems to the average fan? With this new competition and the revamped CCL my head is spinning. This is all way too convoluted Yeah, it's very convoluted. The Leagues Cup is totally superfluous. But some fans might think the CCL is the one that isn't necessary. It could get the reputation as the Leagues Cup but with worse teams involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpursFlu Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Kent said: Yeah, it's very convoluted. The Leagues Cup is totally superfluous. But some fans might think the CCL is the one that isn't necessary. It could get the reputation as the Leagues Cup but with worse teams involved. It also dilutes the prospect of Champions League games. The excitement from continental play is that rare culture clash of League v League. But now if it's happening every week it takes away the shine from Champions League and League Cup really because every team gets to participate Edited October 12, 2022 by SpursFlu Kent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie_the_parrot Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 2 hours ago, Kent said: ....It could get the reputation as the Leagues Cup but with worse teams involved. If the Club World Cup was higher profile it would help the CCL but it tends to be viewed as a chore by European clubs rather than the main event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 53 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said: If the Club World Cup was higher profile it would help the CCL but it tends to be viewed as a chore by European clubs rather than the main event. Yeah, the Club World Cup is pretty analogous to the CCL. It's a chore for European clubs because they always win (9 in a row now, and 14 of the last 15). Much like Liga MX and MLS teams have often treated CCL like a chore. With MLS teams becoming more competitive in the last several years, and Seattle actually winning it, I think it raises the importance for Mexican teams again. Hopefully teams from outside the big 2 can stake more of a claim to be threats in the CCL on a more consistent basis to get those games feeling more important. If Costa Rican, Honduran, and CPL teams were threats to win the whole thing, that would raise the prestige of the competition. Hopefully that happens in time, but it seems pretty unlikely at this point, unless it happens due to apathy from the big 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 The proposal that makes sense and everyone will hate: Keep the Leagues Cup as is. Bring back the CONCACAF League for all the other nations. Cut the Champions League. Winner of Leagues Cup plays the winner of CONCACAF League. Winner gets the Club World Cup spot. Ansem and Shway 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Ram Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Watchmen said: The proposal that makes sense and everyone will hate: Keep the Leagues Cup as is. Bring back the CONCACAF League for all the other nations. Cut the Champions League. Winner of Leagues Cup plays the winner of CONCACAF League. Winner gets the Club World Cup spot. But you forget that Club World Cup is expanding to 24 or 32 teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, Jedi Ram said: But you forget that Club World Cup is expanding to 24 or 32 teams. Fantastic. Give both winners a spot then. Jedi Ram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpursFlu Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 At the moment all these expanded competitions and changes fall under the ill believe it when I see it category for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 3 hours ago, Watchmen said: The proposal that makes sense and everyone will hate: Keep the Leagues Cup as is. Bring back the CONCACAF League for all the other nations. Cut the Champions League. Winner of Leagues Cup plays the winner of CONCACAF League. Winner gets the Club World Cup spot. Keep CONCACAF club competition a joke and come full circle on the north American sport model where a US league is bigger than the organization regulating the sport? Shway 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Ansem said: Keep CONCACAF club competition a joke and come full circle on the north American sport model where a US league is bigger than the organization regulating the sport? Yes, a system designed to guarantee a non-MLS/Liga MX team in the final is definitely catering to the Americans. Kingston 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Watchmen said: Yes, a system designed to guarantee a non-MLS/Liga MX team in the final is definitely catering to the Americans. Let the clubs compete without gimmicky ideas just to ensure that MLS wins CCL more often* *All League games being in the US only conveniently helps them increase their odds of winning more CCL. No Azteca, no Monterrey or Guadalajara... For that League Cup is a joke. Yes, that's catering to them - I don't get this cult Edited October 13, 2022 by Ansem narduch and Kent 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 9 hours ago, Ansem said: Let the clubs compete without gimmicky ideas just to ensure that MLS wins CCL more often* *All League games being in the US only conveniently helps them increase their odds of winning more CCL. No Azteca, no Monterrey or Guadalajara... For that League Cup is a joke. Yes, that's catering to them - I don't get this cult I can't believe you have so little faith in the non-MLS/Liga MX teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 9 hours ago, Ansem said: *All League games being in the US only conveniently helps them increase their odds of winning more CCL. No Azteca, no Monterrey or Guadalajara... For that League Cup is a joke. That's just a byproduct, not the actual goal. The actual goal is to make as much money as possible, and that won't happen by hosting games in Mexico. Kingston 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Which lasts longer: Next Pro or this incarnation of Leagues Cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Watchmen said: I can't believe you have so little faith in the non-MLS/Liga MX teams. I think they should play Liga MX/MLS clubs more often than just 1 final game unlike you. Who has less faith in them now? Kent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, RS said: That's just a byproduct, not the actual goal. The actual goal is to make as much money as possible, and that won't happen by hosting games in Mexico. Which is great for them and I day "get your money", doesn't make the fact that Mexican clubs will be playing no home games any less true and I'm not convinced that it's champions should go straight to knockout stage, let alone get 2 berths in the 1st round. Stuff like this makes our continental cup a joke and Central America is the area getting screwed here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, Ansem said: Which is great for them and I day "get your money", doesn't make the fact that Mexican clubs will be playing no home games any less true and I'm not convinced that it's champions should go straight to knockout stage, let alone get 2 berths in the 1st round. Stuff like this makes our continental cup a joke and Central America is the area getting screwed here. I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying. It's similar to how the Voyageurs Cup is devalued by having multiple paths for Canadian teams into the CCL. But it was going to happen in an expanded format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 10 hours ago, Ansem said: I think they should play Liga MX/MLS clubs more often than just 1 final game unlike you. Who has less faith in them now? I mostly just think the CCL is a joke, which we both agree on. I just tend to think that it can't actually be fixed. I know you have a grand master plan to fix it which involves one league getting slightly better (maybe), but I just think the disparate between leagues across the continent is such that it can't ever be fixed. I'm mostly just looking at it from a practical point of view: let MLS and Liga MX slug it out however they want, and have everyone else compete in a more balanced and competitive competition. And if the CPL ever reaches a stage where it's dominating the League, have that discussion about a 3 way Leagues Cup then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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