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Blackjack15

Things that CPL can and should learn from The A- League ??⚽️

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...would be a lot easier to do if there were no MLS teams, so the parallel probably isn't a sensible one. We also have to hope that teams in Halifax and Victoria work out better than the Northern Fury and Gold Coast United did when the A League briefly dabbled with smaller markets:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Fury_FC  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Coast_United_FC

There's a reason why the latest expansion attempt there is expected to revolve around Melbourne and Sydney again.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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Yeah if you want to use the A-league as a metaphor, Canada would equal New Zealand. In the sense that they have 1 team participating in a foreign league with incredible distances. They've started their own league and it may be modest but I think it makes a lot more sense in the long run. 

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What really stands out for me is:

Australia’s Starting XI at the World Cup had all A-League Clubs represented and players developed there first

Now that’s just incredible, to think this League was founded in 2005/2006 and 12 Years later it’s proved to great things for their national team 

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2 hours ago, Blackjack15 said:

What really stands out for me is:

Australia’s Starting XI at the World Cup had all A-League Clubs represented and players developed there first

Now that’s just incredible, to think this League was founded in 2005/2006 and 12 Years later it’s proved to great things for their national team 

Call me crazy but I think we can surpass the A-league in that same lifespan.  They are definitely an example to follow as they mirror us in many ways (and even have some disadvantages). 

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2 hours ago, Blackjack15 said:

What really stands out for me is:

Australia’s Starting XI at the World Cup had all A-League Clubs represented and players developed there first

Now that’s just incredible, to think this League was founded in 2005/2006 and 12 Years later it’s proved to great things for their national team 

 

30 minutes ago, Keegan said:

 

Call me crazy but I think we can surpass the A-league in that same lifespan.  They are definitely an example to follow as they mirror us in many ways (and even have some disadvantages). 

It may be important to remember that the A-league was not started from scratch - there was a longstanding existing league (I actually sat the bench as an emergency 'keeper signee for a few Northern Spirit matches back in the early 2000s), which was poorly run and marketed. The A-league was a great concept to market the sport more widely, and get all of the ethnic teams (and divisions) out of the game. They got buy in from the tv network, and most importantly a huge benefactor in Frank Lowy. 

I would agree the parallel is more NZ, with one team in a foreign league. They have a semi-pro league, nothing more. Distance and population parallels with Australia, but not much more.

If you look at where Australian players are at, and the clubs they play for, and ours you will see that we can only mirror and surpass that in a wet dream.

Note: I agree with most of the waking the red piece, but not on tv. Everyone has foxtel.

Edited by BCM

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33 minutes ago, BCM1555362349 said:

 

It may be important to remember that the A-league was not started from scratch - there was a longstanding existing league (I actually sat the bench as an emergency 'keeper signee for a few Northern Spirit matches back in the early 2000s), which was poorly run and marketed. The A-league was a great concept to market the sport more widely, and get all of the ethnic teams (and divisions) out of the game. They got buy in from the tv network, and most importantly a huge benefactor in Frank Lowy. 

I would agree the parallel is more NZ, with one team in a foreign league. They have a semi-pro league, nothing more. Distance and population parallels with Australia, but not much more.

If you look at where Australian players are at, and the clubs they play for, and ours you will see that we can only mirror and surpass that in a wet dream.

Note: I agree with most of the waking the red piece, but not on tv. Everyone has foxtel.

Okay, maybe double check that my friend.  They have guys at similar clubs to our players and while they probably edge us we have players at pretty big clubs and others who could be breaking through in the near future. 

Australia: Brighton, PSV, Celtic, Hertha Berlin, Huddersfield, Villa

Canada: Cardiff, Besiktas x2, Rangers, Bayern Munich

they definitely edge us in depth at the moment but their level is attainable in time.

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43 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Okay, maybe double check that my friend.  They have guys at similar clubs to our players and while they probably edge us we have players at pretty big clubs and others who could be breaking through in the near future. 

Australia: Brighton, PSV, Celtic, Hertha Berlin, Huddersfield, Villa

Canada: Cardiff, Besiktas x2, Rangers, Bayern Munich

they definitely edge us in depth at the moment but their level is attainable in time.

I was in fact meaning overall, so yeah I guess depth. Of course we have a few guys at big teams. But we're consistently calling up guys in Hungary and lower leagues. And look at our keeper situation. They have multiple guys playing (and by playing I mean actually playing) in the Dutch league not getting call ups. Players from Tottenham, Stoke, Bristol, Reading, NAC, Gronigen, Rosenborg, Hajduk Split, Brugge, etc - not making the World Cup squad. Tons of guys in Scotland and the Championship not really even being mentioned as national team players. Brad Jones spent five years at Liverpool and during that time received 3 caps. Ask yourself if we are near that situation, please.

I love the enthusiasm but let's contain it. They've qualified for the past 5 world cups, we haven't qualified since 1986. To say we are near them is simply not reality. And to be honest, Australia has some major holes (defence and an all-out striker).

And again, let's be real about the comparisons. The predecessor to the A-League was the National Soccer League. It was longstanding, at times attracted some decent foreign talent and some teams drew quite well (Northern Spirit being one of them, at times). We're creating something from scratch. Exciting as all hell, but don't want us to be brought down by unrealistic expectations.

Edited by BCM

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2 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

 

I would agree the parallel is more NZ, with one team in a foreign league. They have a semi-pro league, nothing more. Distance and population parallels with Australia, but not much more.

If you look at where Australian players are at, and the clubs they play for, and ours you will see that we can only mirror and surpass that in a wet dream.

CPL will be a pro league and a lot closer to quality in comparison to it’s next door neighbour’s league than the aforementioned country’s neighbouring league so the New Zealand comparison like the Wales comparison doesn’t compute well in my books. 

As for the second paragraph, you had me rolling around on the floor like a hysterical monkey. We have already produced a player that is going to surpass anything they have ever developed (two if Tabla commits) and we’re just getting started. We’ll surpass them in a few years and when our league surpasses theirs, that will be all she wrote. 

Edited by Macksam

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1 hour ago, Macksam said:

CPL will be a pro league and a lot closer to quality in comparison to it’s next door neighbour’s league than the aforementioned country’s neighbouring league so the New Zealand comparison like the Wales comparison doesn’t compute well in my books. 

As for the second paragraph, you had me rolling around on the floor like a hysterical monkey. We have already produced a player that is going to surpass anything they have ever developed (two if Tabla commits) and we’re just getting started. We’ll surpass them in a few years and when our league surpasses theirs, that will be all she wrote. 

Now I am the hysterical monkey. If our guys become like Kewell and Viduka I will be over the moon! Or even Christian Vieri (raised in Australia from the age of 3 or so). I'd even take Brett Emerton.

Man, are you getting ahead of yourself on those guys. I'll just mention that about four years ago Australia had a young guy on a professional contract at Inter Milan (and appeared in a league match) - can't miss defender - now at PSV. Name him? You can't. He's got 30 or so caps and is a good pro, but a star. Nope. The point is that can't miss prospects sometimes miss or sometimes just don't live up to the hype. 

And I love how three of the five guys we're holding up as being at great teams (Rangers, Besiktas and Bayern Munich) were as of a few months ago at Burnley, Orlando and (still) Vancouver.

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What I will say - the difference between the A-League and the old NSL is the academies. The academies have been damn successful at producing talent and the league has become a pathway for these players. A lot of the kids go from the academy straight to Europe, but even more stay a few years. It's not perfect, there is a breakdown from the 18-23 year old range and those kids get lost.

But the league has been a success, and become somewhat self funding, by selling on ambitious young players to Europe and Asia. Don't laugh, those Asian leagues (China, Japan, Korea and all in the middle east) pay huge sums of money - and Aussies are in demand as teams are given an extra foreign spot in the Champions League for having an "Asian" import.

For me one of the key drivers for the CSA/MNT has to be to get these teams to invest in the academies.

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10 minutes ago, BCM1555362349 said:

Now I am the hysterical monkey. If our guys become like Kewell and Viduka I will be over the moon! Or even Christian Vieri (raised in Australia from the age of 3 or so). I'd even take Brett Emerton.

Man, are you getting ahead of yourself on those guys. I'll just mention that about four years ago Australia had a young guy on a professional contract at Inter Milan (and appeared in a league match) - can't miss defender - now at PSV. Name him? You can't. He's got 30 or so caps and is a good pro, but a star. Nope. The point is that can't miss prospects sometimes miss or sometimes just don't live up to the hype. 

And I love how three of the five guys we're holding up as being at great teams (Rangers, Besiktas and Bayern Munich) were as of a few months ago at Burnley, Orlando and (still) Vancouver.

I’m glad you replied to my post the way you did. However, like Keegan, I only take issue with the “mirror and surpass that in a wet dream” comment which implies that you’ll think they will always be a head of us to which I will remain staunch and still hold the view that we’ll surpass them within five years of the CPL starting.

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42 minutes ago, Macksam said:

I’m glad you replied to my post the way you did. However, like Keegan, I only take issue with the “mirror and surpass that in a wet dream” comment which implies that you’ll think they will always be a head of us to which I will remain staunch and still hold the view that we’ll surpass them within five years of the CPL starting.

Ok I admit to it being message board hyperbole. My apologies. I do not share all of your optimism (at least not the time frame), but see your point and not only respect the view but hope it comes to fruition. It's going to be a long road, and we need sponsor and fan support and steady long-term investment in facilities and development. But the AU model is proving our longstanding belief that a pathway will produce a steady flow of players. We need to learn from it, and improve upon it. Let's do this!

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7 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

...and get all of the ethnic teams (and divisions) out of the game...

That's not really what happened given the Brisbane Roar started out on the late 50s as Hollandia and still have very obvious Dutch symbolism in their jersey colour and the lion on their logo. Sydney FC also have more than a passing resemblance with the Sydney City (Hakoah) club that was funded by Frank Lowy in the early years of the NSL at least according to some. It was ethnic teams with a penchant for flares and crowd violence (games with Serb vs Croat and Macedonian vs Greek overtones having been particularly problematic) that they really wanted to jettison out of their top tier but those clubs still get to participate in the FFA Cup as second tier NPL teams and three of them (an Italian backed club in Brisbane and Greek backed clubs in Adelaide and Melbourne) are part of the shortlist of twelve under consideration as expansion franchises at the moment. What Australia did better than Canada in soccer was consistently keeping everybody on board in the same system rather than always coming up with a new masterplan to duplicate and sideline (usually unsuccessfully) what's already there.

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26 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

That's not really what happened given the Brisbane Roar started out on the late 50s as Hollandia and still have very obvious Dutch symbolism in their jersey colour and the lion on their logo. Sydney FC also have more than a passing resemblance with the Sydney City (Hakoah) club that was funded by Frank Lowy in the early years of the NSL at least according to some. It was ethnic teams with a penchant for flares and crowd violence (games with Serb vs Croat and Macedonian vs Greek overtones having been particularly problematic) that they really wanted to jettison out of their top tier but those clubs still get to participate in the FFA Cup as second tier NPL teams and three of them (an Italian backed club in Brisbane and Greek backed clubs in Adelaide and Melbourne) are part of the shortlist of twelve under consideration as expansion franchises at the moment. What Australia did better than Canada in soccer was consistently keeping everybody on board in the same system rather than always coming up with a new masterplan to duplicate and sideline (usually unsuccessfully) what's already there.

I would say this is somewhat truthful but a lot of revisionist history. Qld Roar (originally) colours were a nod to historic ties that had long ceased to exist. All of the remaining partisan ethnic clubs were intentionally, and controversially, excluded. They all wanted entry, and none received it. They threw a big tantrum. No one listened.

Melbourne Victory and Sydney FC were created afresh without the baggage, and it worked. Trying to link Sydney FC with Hakoah needs a long bow (beyond the sky blue colour); Sydney FC model is of a "franchise" rather than "club". It was for some time Sydney's only team and garnered widespread support - never did I hear an accusation of it being Hakoah (likewise Western Sydney caters to a demographic, not an ethnic community). Maccabi Hakoah (aka for a time Sydney City) still exists and plays on to this day.

The FFA Cup is a new creation (2014), and of course the state league teams can enter. That's where the ethnic teams are and should remain. Trust me, they were "jettisoned" out of the top league - very publicly and intentionally.

There is much debate on the next round of expansion, with a helluva lot of opposition to letting the traditional clubs in...If so, it will be a step to the past, not a continuation of what has occurred since the A-League was dreamed up and created.

One thing to watch out for is the structure. The FFA controls the A-League, and a lot of the teams do not like this and see it as a conflict of interest.

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37 minutes ago, BCM1555362349 said:

I would say this is somewhat truthful but a lot of revisionist history...

What I responded to was the idea that there was a move to get all ethnic clubs out of the game. That clearly didn't happen any way you slice it because with occasional exceptions like Footscray JUST and Inter Monaro almost all of the old NSL era ethnic teams are still playing semi-professionally in Australia's mainstream league system usually with playing colours and logos that still point strongly to their origins in a similar manner to those of the Roar. Canadian soccer would be a lot stronger at the grassroots level if old pro league franchises kept going semi-professionally in a similar sort of way rather than folding outright, but that's the difference between having a genuine club involved usually with its own social club and stadium rather than a franchise that depends entirely on the whims of one rich owner for its continuing existence. It will be interesting to see if the moves by some of the old NSL teams in Australia to form a national second division with the goal of eventual pro/rel where the A League is concerned ever gets anywhere.

 

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27 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

What I responded to was the idea that there was a move to get all ethnic clubs out of the game. That clearly didn't happen any way you slice it because with occasional exceptions like Footscray JUST and Inter Monaro almost all of the old NSL era ethnic teams are still playing semi-professionally in Australia's mainstream league system usually with playing colours and logos that still point strongly to their origins in a similar manner to those of the Roar. Canadian soccer would be a lot stronger at the grassroots level if old pro league franchises kept going semi-professionally in a similar sort of way rather than folding outright, but that's the difference between having a genuine club involved usually with its own social club and stadium rather than a franchise that depends entirely on the whims of one rich owner for its continuing existence. It will be interesting to see if the moves by some of the old NSL teams in Australia to form a national second division with the goal of eventual pro/rel where the A League is concerned ever gets anywhere.

 

We have a closet Aussie in our midst :) Good to chat Aussie football with someone.

I think you're right, but it was cleaned out at the top. That seemed to be one of the drivers of the new league - start afresh. The entire foundation of soccer in Australia was set up by ethnic clubs, however, so it is entirely different proposition to wipe them out. I never meant to say that was the purpose. Only to get them out of the top - to create geographically centred franchises instead of clubs at the top level - and to dilute their influence in the then-soccer association. This was a well financed coup!

But by the late-1990s and certainly early 2000s I would also contend that a lot of the clubs lost their early identity - not the Greek, Croat, etc but a lot of them. Case in point, I only found out a few years ago that my old club -  Manly Warringah Dolphins - was originally Dutch (with a few mergers and incarnations). It simply wasn't mentioned or part of any ethos. I can't even recall any players of Dutch origin - we represented a community not an ethnicity. We certainly didn't have Dutch coaches or play a Dutch style.

I don't think they'll get pro/rel anytime soon, btw. The owners of the franchises have invested too much. Same situation as in all North American sports. But I do think they'll get a nationwide second division at some stage (although I do question its financial viability).

Back to Canada, agree we would be in a better place had we had continuity.

Edited by BCM

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9 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

Now I am the hysterical monkey. If our guys become like Kewell and Viduka I will be over the moon! Or even Christian Vieri (raised in Australia from the age of 3 or so). I'd even take Brett Emerton.

Man, are you getting ahead of yourself on those guys. I'll just mention that about four years ago Australia had a young guy on a professional contract at Inter Milan (and appeared in a league match) - can't miss defender - now at PSV. Name him? You can't. He's got 30 or so caps and is a good pro, but a star. Nope. The point is that can't miss prospects sometimes miss or sometimes just don't live up to the hype. 

And I love how three of the five guys we're holding up as being at great teams (Rangers, Besiktas and Bayern Munich) were as of a few months ago at Burnley, Orlando and (still) Vancouver.

Lol come on man even if you want to play that game you can’t act like Australia is way ahead of Canada... Hutchinson, Radzinski, Stalteri, **********, De Guzman x2, Begovic...

Australia doesn’t produce players any better than Canada just in more depth. Oh and it helps they have fewer defectors, I think if we didn’t have that problem we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

Also calling out Arfield for being at Burnley a few months ago when in the same breath you’re trying to tell us that guys at Villa and Huddersfield are great?

The truth is that in the present moment Canadians are at bigger clubs.  Brad Smith who I had the heartbreak of watching score against my Exeter city in the fa Cup is now with Seattle so I really don’t think they’re way ahead of us and no argument you make is going to change that because it’s not reality.  Australia deserves a ton of respect but we can catch them and very quickly... do they have any guys at Barcelona or Bayern?  Besiktas is a huge club.. maybe bigger than any Australian is currently on and we have 2 players there.  

That can’t miss defender that was at Inter (just a couple years ago) is still their best defender even though he’s now at psv (arguably biggest club too) so not sure bringing down your best defender was a great argument to prove Australians are way ahead of Canadians. 

Name me Australia’s best XI and put it against Canada’s and you will not see much difference at all.  Australia is in the Costa Rica tier of teams.. behind the USA and Mexico.  I think we can reach Costa Rica/ Australia level without a doubt, the way you talk about the aussies sounds like you think they’re Croatian/Belgian level.  I think we can push even further ahead to a USA level.  I follow and cheer for the Socceroos so I hope you don’t think I’m hating on them but rather I’m just trying to show we are in a position to be at that level and soon.

Edited by Keegan

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1 hour ago, Keegan said:

Lol come on man even if you want to play that game you can’t act like Australia is way ahead of Canada... Hutchinson, Radzinski, Stalteri, **********, De Guzman x2, Begovic...

Australia doesn’t produce players any better than Canada just in more depth. Oh and it helps they have fewer defectors, I think if we didn’t have that problem we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

Also calling out Arfield for being at Burnley a few months ago when in the same breath you’re trying to tell us that guys at Villa and Huddersfield are great?

The truth is that in the present moment Canadians are at bigger clubs.  Brad Smith who I had the heartbreak of watching score against my Exeter city in the fa Cup is now with Seattle so I really don’t think they’re way ahead of us and no argument you make is going to change that because it’s not reality.  Australia deserves a ton of respect but we can catch them and very quickly... do they have any guys at Barcelona or Bayern?  Besiktas is a huge club.. maybe bigger than any Australian is currently on and we have 2 players there.  

That can’t miss defender that was at Inter (just a couple years ago) is still their best defender even though he’s now at psv (arguably biggest club too) so not sure bringing down your best defender was a great argument to prove Australians are way ahead of Canadians. 

Name me Australia’s best XI and put it against Canada’s and you will not see much difference at all.  Australia is in the Costa Rica tier of teams.. behind the USA and Mexico.  I think we can reach Costa Rica/ Australia level without a doubt, the way you talk about the aussies sounds like you think they’re Croatian/Belgian level.  I think we can push even further ahead to a USA level.  I follow and cheer for the Socceroos so I hope you don’t think I’m hating on them but rather I’m just trying to show we are in a position to be at that level and soon.

We disagree on a lot of points, but actually agree on a lot too.

But first...stop kidding yourself. Australia has been way ahead of us! To even compare, historically, the track record is ludicrous.  Seriously. We have had 10 players in the EPL, and Australia 51. A good number of them have made an impact (Kewell, Viduka, Lazaridis, Cahill, Moore, Neill, Schwartzer (played over 500 PL matches!), etc). They've had 15 players in the top Turkish league, we've had 5. They've had 17 players in the Bundesliga and we've had 8 (9 when Davies arrives there). I could compare other leagues, but what's the point?!

When did I mention Huddersfield or Villa? You did! I could mention Daniel Arzani the 19 year old that just moved to Man City - and you say Besiktas is bigger than any club an Australian plays at, FFS!!!!!), and you know damn well they've had players at Liverpool, Man Utd, Chelsea, Galatasaray and other big teams. Historically we can't compete - the number of pro players, where they have played and WC history proves it. Incidentally, I remember Australia drew with Croatia a few World Cups ago in a very feisty affair...Australia advanced from the group, Croatia didn't. But that was Australia's golden generation.

Brad Smith didn't make the WC team, so not sure why you bring him up (or why you knock MLS given that some of our best players are - or recently were - there so this seems like a knock to our team and not to Australia!)

I suffer with both Australia and Canada. We lose Begovic, Owen and others, and Australia loses Viera and Australian born players like Josep Simunic (who played against Australia in the World Cup), Anthoney Seric and Avraam Papadopoulos. It's not a contest; both teams lose good talent! I would say we tend to pick up more plastic Canadians than Australia, but that's neither here nor there.

But let's stop the pissing match and find common ground. Where we agree is on the starting 11 and where Australia would fit in the pecking order of CONCACAF - Australia is at a bit of a low point. It has depth but has no stars anymore (maybe Arzani and De Silva will rise up, perhaps). I think at this stage we are about even in terms of starting 11. We are on the up when they, at the moment, are stalling. We are producing some good young players, with two potential top class players. Where we lose out is in depth, as you said. We have little to none in most positions, midfield being the exception. That brings us back to the topic of this thread and to the CPL -- this will help us increase the number of pros and pathway to the MNT. On this point, I am sure we agree.

What does seem odd is that Australia produced really top class players at every position in the late 1990s and early to mid 2000s (esp keeper, where Joe Didulica was 5th or 6th choice even while getting game time at Ajax, and eventually played for Croatia after literally begging to play for Australia) and now with the advent of the new league produces a lot of average players. This is a paradox. We have to avoid this trap.

Bedtime.

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I’m sorry I didn’t realize Arzani moved from City to City.. does that even really count?  He’ll never play for man city and he’ll be loaned out - Davies is nearly two years younger and will be actually playing for a bigger club. 

You brought up this whole club argument and I think we’ve sufficiently shown that your “wet dream” comment was hyperbole to the extreme.  You can’t say that Australians are playing at “big” clubs when we also have players at equal or better clubs and then put down Burnley when if an Aussie played there it would be one of their bigger clubs.  Do you see what I’m saying? We can and will catch Australia because there’s no reason we shouldn’t.  We have had two players developed in Canada transfer to Barcelona and Bayern in the past year and we’re adding 7 pro clubs next year. 

We can agree to disagree on that.  I have a ton of time for Australia.

Edited by Keegan

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23 hours ago, Ansem said:

https://www.wakingthered.com/2018/2/8/16988868/canadian-premier-league-can-learn-from-australia-aleague-cpl-canpl-canada-soccer

From that article: "So, in Canada, this means you don’t have games on Saturday nights; nobody’s competing with hockey."

This is interesting in that it goes against the experience in the Victoria Market as I remember it.

I don't disagree with trying to avoid competing with hockey for TV time but locally Saturday evening fixtures always seemed to be the best chance of good attendances. Making the game part of a great night out (especially when games were downtown at RAP) seemed to attract casuals needed to fill the seats.

But that is probably a local thing based on an "outdoor" culture. Saturday afternoons in the summer is when people hike, kayak, bicycle, whatever. Saturday evening they want to be entertained. Other markets (in different times zones possibly with NHL teams) will likely have different results.

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