Euro 2016

[Kurt-MTL]

11 hours ago, gigi riva said:

Mediocre  team  like  England

To be fair, England got to the tournament by going 10-0-0 in their qualifying group; so not really an apt example. 

Congratulations to Portugal; it wasn't pretty but it just goes to show you that every now and then, a little anti-football can win you the big one (see Greece 2004, Chelsea UCL, etc). 

Hurray for Floro-ball !  *ducks for cover*

[johnyb]

Congratulations to Portugal! Got it done without Ronaldo in the final game. Maybe now Portugal fans will give the team the respect they deserve and throw away their Brazil Kits!

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, dsqpr said:

I think Portugal's defensive capability is severely underrated. They defend almost as well as the Italians and also have enough flair to conjure up a goal at any time. They have been close enough over the years that I'll grudgingly admit they deserve this one. The one saving grace is that Ronaldo didn't get the winner!

Quite agree, it was one of those tournaments you were hoping Portugal would not win, once the draw went the way it did for round of 16, then somehow, just after Ronaldo was out, you started to want them to take it. So that made it entertaining for the few of us who really do like the game and recognize the merits of those who win. 

Also have to say, Rui Patricio was great, and Pepe excellent.

[AvroArrow]

Remember how bitter Ronaldo was about the way Iceland played?  Remember how bitter the Portuguese fans were when Greece beat Portugal in the Euro finals in Portugal?  How quickly everyone's position changes when the park the bus, turtling, defensive first-counter attacking soccer (or what ever you want to call it) wins you the championship.

From a neutral perspective, it isn't the most enjoyable soccer to watch.  If it wasn't for drama and tension of it being an international championship match, the game was not that appealing. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, AvroArrow said:

Remember how bitter Ronaldo was about the way Iceland played?  Remember how bitter the Portuguese fans were when Greece beat Portugal in the Euro finals in Portugal?  How quickly everyone's position changes when the park the bus, turtling, defensive first-counter attacking soccer (or what ever you want to call it) wins you the championship.

From a neutral perspective, it isn't the most enjoyable soccer to watch.  If it wasn't for drama and tension of it being an international championship match, the game was not that appealing. 

That was by no means "park the bus" football, it was a long way from it. The team played a proper 4-4-2, and as the game advanced they did too, pushing gradually forwards. France ended up holding back, they underplayed and Portugal picked up their game.

If you want to know what parking the bus is, I can suggest a few examples of teams that have convincing possession playing teams unable to take the ball from them. Like m. 10 to 44 of the semi-final France-Germany: that was France parking the bus.

[dyslexic nam]

I always find the criticisms against 'parking the bus', and 'anti-football' a bit odd.  What is a team supposed to do against a more talented and complete team - play end to end attacking football and get destroyed by a more offensively talented team?  Just to uphold some misguided notion of what footy is supposed to look like?  When Greece won, they were criticized for their defensive style, but you know what - Greece WON.  No one would be celebrating their spirit if they got their asses handed to them while playing ineffective attacking footy.

 

Teams play to their strengths and capacity - at least the good ones do.  Anything else is foolish.  Playing against a better team?  Trying to preserve a one-goal lead?   Grinding out a draw when only a point is needed?  Park the bus, the truck, and the god-damned RV if you need to.  Footy is a results oriented business, and fans want to see those results materialize.  The kind of whining I hear from losing managers about anti-football is just their way of deflecting blame for their team not being able to unlock a solid defensive unit.  One of the reasons I dislike Arsenal is because this is an absolutely standard page out of Wenger's playbook.

 

People don't tend to criticize Floro-ball just because it is defensive - they criticize it because it is defensive without (so far) getting us the results we need.  If we had a solid lock on a hex spot because we were able to grind out a few stingy results south of the border, I wouldn't give two shits that other nations accused us of parking the bus.  I would happily drive that bus all the way to the World Cup. 

[AvroArrow]

41 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I always find the criticisms against 'parking the bus', and 'anti-football' a bit odd.  What is a team supposed to do against a more talented and complete team - play end to end attacking football and get destroyed by a more offensively talented team?  Just to uphold some misguided notion of what footy is supposed to look like?  When Greece won, they were criticized for their defensive style, but you know what - Greece WON.  No one would be celebrating their spirit if they got their asses handed to them while playing ineffective attacking footy.

 

Teams play to their strengths and capacity - at least the good ones do.  Anything else is foolish.  Playing against a better team?  Trying to preserve a one-goal lead?   Grinding out a draw when only a point is needed?  Park the bus, the truck, and the god-damned RV if you need to.  Footy is a results oriented business, and fans want to see those results materialize.  The kind of whining I hear from losing managers about anti-football is just their way of deflecting blame for their team not being able to unlock a solid defensive unit.  One of the reasons I dislike Arsenal is because this is an absolutely standard page out of Wenger's playbook.

 

People don't tend to criticize Floro-ball just because it is defensive - they criticize it because it is defensive without (so far) getting us the results we need.  If we had a solid lock on a hex spot because we were able to grind out a few stingy results south of the border, I wouldn't give two shits that other nations accused us of parking the bus.  I would happily drive that bus all the way to the World Cup. 

I'm not criticizing it as a valid tactic.  Heck, if Canada needs to bunker verses Honduras to get a result, go for it.  I'm saying it can be boring to watch if you have no vested interest in either of the teams playing.  I fully realize this is somewhat contradictory.

[dyslexic nam]

Yeah, and I didn't mean to be over-the-top about it.  Its just that I often see this issue noted when a supposedly better team can't get a result against a supposedly inferior team, and it seems to be indicative of some kind of player/manager sense of entitlement that bugs me.    

[BearcatSA]

3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I always find the criticisms against 'parking the bus', and 'anti-football' a bit odd.  What is a team supposed to do against a more talented and complete team - play end to end attacking football and get destroyed by a more offensively talented team?  Just to uphold some misguided notion of what footy is supposed to look like?  When Greece won, they were criticized for their defensive style, but you know what - Greece WON.  No one would be celebrating their spirit if they got their asses handed to them while playing ineffective attacking footy.

I totally understand your points here. Winning is the big thing, in the end.  But playing a less attractive style, for want of a better term, can put a gaffer on the hot seat far more quickly and more intensely if losses begin to happen than a manager who is perceived as playing "the right way."  At least that's my perception from what I've read about in Europe over the years or even TFC (comparing Preki to Winter).

      

[dyslexic nam]

I think there is truth to that - Mourinho being an interesting example.  Often pegged as a defense-first style that valued results and pragmatism over flair, he was the messiah at Chelsea when they were winning, but vilified when they stopped being champions of England.  Mind you, the force of his personality gave him a bit longer to try and sort things out when results deteriorated, but the end result was the same.  Big Sam is another whose results tend to insulate him from criticism re playing style.

That is pretty telling when it comes to Floro too.  If we make the hex and/or get to the big show, I am sure lots of his detractors will admit that his defensive style was a necessary part of the equation for Canada.  But if we don't get the results, it becomes far easier to rip his style of play - because it isn't intrinsically beautiful independent of results.

I am one of those pragmatists that will always prioritize the results for our nats over the aesthetic of play.  Better to bunker down and grind out a result in Honduras than lose a vital match 4-3 while playing exciting-as-hell footy - in my opinion anyway. 

 

 

 

[Macksam]

This sport we all love has such a high level of artistry that style is very much intertwined in the substance. My side of this debate is that if all you care about is results, you're better off watching other sports like sprinting, formula 1, speed skating and even gridiron football. I question what you get out of watching it. Soccer is about the cultural, artistic and social identity the individuals and teams display, and the impact that has on their surroundings. It's a lot more than some athletic competition about which side can put the ball in the opposing team's net more.

I know for our national team we can't ask for much considering it's something that's barely scraped together and our manager has to try his best with what he's got. However, as we professionalize the sport more and start to consistently develop talented players, we have to develop a great style of play to take things to the next level and sustain successful longevity. You can see this in teams like Barcelona, Juventus and Bayern Munich, all teams that maintain success in the longterm because they value style and have a clear identity. You then have the opposite, which are teams that are more result oriented like Chelsea, Internazionale and Real Madrid (6-7 years ago...not so much now) who can have success but when things don't go well, they absolute fall the fuck apart because they lack an identity, a clear style of play.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 13/7/2016 at 5:33 AM, dyslexic nam said:

The kind of whining I hear from losing managers about anti-football is just their way of deflecting blame for their team not being able to unlock a solid defensive unit.  One of the reasons I dislike Arsenal is because this is an absolutely standard page out of Wenger's playbook.

Thought the whole post was great, as is Macksam's above, excellent. 

We have heard that argument a lot at Barcelona over the years too, but it is generally recognized that an ultra defensive team is a challenge to be overcome. That if we cannot open up the can (as they say in Catalan, "obrir la llauna") then it is our fault, and we are doing something wrong. That we have to learn to be more creative, have more alternatives, or work better on other kinds of chances, like free kicks, corners.

Another way to avoid such teams is to play more quickly. If someone here feels Portugal was parking the bus, fine, but if you bloody well counter quickly and do not let them set up the two lines of 4, you won't see the bus. You need time to set it up, usually because the other more technical rival is pissing around with horizontal possession. If you look at the goal in every play and the rival gets the ball back, let them come out with it, then take it away, then counter, idiots. You won't come across any bus at all if you do it fast and effectively.

Normally we also understand that if a coach says the other side parks the bus before a match, he is trying to 'style-shame' them into playing differently, meaning you try to embarrass a manager into playing more openly, as it will benefit you. Very few managers have the nerve to play ultra defensively and get their team to be disciplined enough to do so. 

As for Floro, I think we are probably missing a piece, which is knowing how to steal a goal a bit better. We are playing for draws and often get burnt. I don't think he is giving us all we need. Yes, we have to be very stingy defensively, agreed. But we also have to ready to nab those goals and be stingy one up. For me, if we don't make the HEX or if Larin et al can't score for us like they do with their teams, we should fire Floro, and hire a younger version with a bit more flair for attack.

[dyslexic nam]

10 hours ago, Macksam said:

This sport we all love has such a high level of artistry that style is very much intertwined in the substance. My side of this debate is that if all you care about is results, you're better off watching other sports like sprinting, formula 1, speed skating and even gridiron football. I question what you get out of watching it. Soccer is about the cultural, artistic and social identity the individuals and teams display, and the impact that has on their surroundings. It's a lot more than some athletic competition about which side can put the ball in the opposing team's net more.

I know for our national team we can't ask for much considering it's something that's barely scraped together and our manager has to try his best with what he's got. However, as we professionalize the sport more and start to consistently develop talented players, we have to develop a great style of play to take things to the next level and sustain successful longevity. You can see this in teams like Barcelona, Juventus and Bayern Munich, all teams that maintain success in the longterm because they value style and have a clear identity. You then have the opposite, which are teams that are more result oriented like Chelsea, Internazionale and Real Madrid (6-7 years ago...not so much now) who can have success but when things don't go well, they absolute fall the fuck apart because they lack an identity, a clear style of play.

I agree with much of what you say, but I think we need to recognize that it really only applies to teams that actually have the capacity to play with the flair we all appreciate... and win.  The Barcas, Bayerns, and [gag] Arsenals can generally get the results that they need while playing an aesthetically pleasing style.  The Stokes - and Canadas - of the world simply don't have that luxury against most opponents they encounter in meaningful competition.  

That is really the context and intent of my post - not that parking the bus is the best or preferred way to play footy, just that it is a perfectly legitimate strategy for large swaths of teams when playing technically superior opponents.  They are faced with either playing pragmatically for a result or potentially getting their asses handed to them while pursuing some idealized version of the beautiful game.  So they often choose pragmatism - as they should, and as many fans would demand.  Yet when people criticize the team that parks the bus, it is usually a somewhat accusatory charge that they are playing the wrong way, or that any result they achieve is diminished by the method.  

Portugal is a funny example of both sides of that coin - they (well, really just Ronaldo) ripped Iceland for playing defensive footy, yet were guilty (according to many) of employing similar tactics against France.  That is indicative of the kind of result-entitlement that seems to bug me quite a bit.  A strategy that seems justifiable when a team stands to benefit somehow represents anti-football when it denies them a result they felt they deserved before a ball was even kicked.  

 

And UT- I agree re Floro.  The challenge is that there seems to be very little offensive plan for us.  We lack the kind of pacy counter attack that tends to make parking the bus a strategy that can get a result (other than a series of draws, which will never get us to a major tournament).  My whole defense of the PTB strategy is that it can get otherwise unobtainable results.  If it is not effective in getting us points in qualification, then it loses the only value that, to me, warrants that style of play.  

[BearcatSA]

^Good post. 

[BuzzAndSting]

Had a friend post this to my FB page, a video of the Northern Ireland v Germany game. A green Canadian flag at 2:24. Odd!