Canadian Premier League

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The devil is in the details... That's going to be hard to get done according to CPL and CSA being adamant at refusing such schemes.

Time will tell, and personally I am not going to get too excited about this until there is a London Free Press story with attributed quotes about it, but as far as I am aware the only people who have been in any way adamant on the no B team thing are Anthony Totera and Dino Rossi neither of whom are likely to be team owners in any emerging fully pro level league. At some point the ideal scenario rhetoric has to stop and compromises start to be made to make something actually happen. Three MLS affiliates (London, Ottawa? and ???) plus Hamilton plus Halifax and you are one short of six needed to launch in 2018.

[Nello]

15 hours ago, tovan1 said:

Going back to the Halifax rumours, I think a 8k modular stadium would work nicely if it was done like Bonney Field in Sacramento.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonney_Field

https://goo.gl/Mdz1mf  

It might be a good idea to keep the crowd compact, all on one side even to add to the atmosphere. if it's in the budget to cover the stands like at a race track it would help to amplify the noise

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

At some point the ideal scenario rhetoric has to stop and compromises start to be made to make something actually happen.

Compromise on what? The league hasn't started yet, so it doesn't need "compromises". Rightfully so, they should start with teams that are 100% independent of MLS clubs.

Why keep claiming that Canadians are utterly incapable of giving themselves a Top soccer league?

[rob.notenboom]

When CanPL essential is trying to convince a group of millionaires/billionaires to spend their money on something that they likely would not have spent on their own, compromises are going to be necessary. As much as many people distrust MLSE, if they're willing to spend the money (and even better if they're willing to treat the league and their franchise in it they way people would hope they would ... as an independent professional team), then I don't know how the league could say no. Agree that there are risks with ownership groups who are potentially getting into this for the wrong reasons. However, I also agree that compromises will need to be made to get this to work. As much as CSEG & TNSE seem like sexy, big money owners, considering they are primarily hockey team owners, it's hard for me to see them as any better/worse than MLSE. In fact, at least MLSE has a 10 year history of screwing up to learn from. If they apply those lessons here, the league could be much better off for it. I realize this is all conjecture ... just thinking out loud.

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Neil Koheil said:

It might be a good idea to keep the crowd compact, all on one side even to add to the atmosphere. if it's in the budget to cover the stands like at a race track it would help to amplify the noise

I don't get why they could replicate Empire Field instead. It cost around $14M to build initially and it looked great. That's the best venue to use as a "tester" before building a permanent stadium

 

[shermanator]

Those tweets are from @Complete Homer if I'm not mistaken. Curious as to who his source is.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, rob.notenboom said:

When CanPL essential is trying to convince a group of millionaires/billionaires to spend their money on something that they likely would not have spent on their own, compromises are going to be necessary. As much as many people distrust MLSE, if they're willing to spend the money (and even better if they're willing to treat the league and their franchise in it they way people would hope they would ... as an independent professional team), then I don't know how the league could say no. Agree that there are risks with ownership groups who are potentially getting into this for the wrong reasons. However, I also agree that compromises will need to be made to get this to work. As much as CSEG & TNSE seem like sexy, big money owners, considering they are primarily hockey team owners, it's hard for me to see them as any better/worse than MLSE. In fact, at least MLSE has a 10 year history of screwing up to learn from. If they apply those lessons here, the league could be much better off for it. I realize this is all conjecture ... just thinking out loud.

There's a reason why they don't want affiliates in their league. I'm not being argumentative just for the sake of it but I'm removing my soccer fan hat and putting on the business hat.

Affiliate teams inevitably damage your brand. It becomes impossible to shake off the perception of "B League" and the endless comparison to MLS. This hurts the value of the league and the value of the teams. No investors in the range we've heard so far would have that. You're artificially putting a ceiling on the potential term value of said team after X amount of years. That's business none sense and if those owners are to make these kind of investments and accept losing money for X amount of years, they would prefer to protect their brand in doing so, not hurting it right from the get go and hurting their potential return. That's just insane and they would have walked away from the table.

Also a lot of you don't seem to understand American Leagues and ownership, which is a different beast than the rest of the planet. MLSE are CO-OWNERS of MLS. Nothing they say or do in the area of soccer doesn't get cleared with MLS ownership and commissioner FIRST and FOREMOST. So MLSE are indirectly also speaking on behalf of MLS itself. How can you not be worried about that? MLS showed how little they cared about Canada and the Canadian program outside of ripping the rewards of operating out of 3 of the most lucrative markets in North America....and some of you think they care about CPL and don't see them as competition??? Wow...wake up

 I'm not saying that MLSE wants to harm CPL but it's in MLS best interest to put affiliates in CPL to

• undermined it by forever branding it as 2nd rate and B league soccer
• protect and extend the MLS monopoly in the big 3 markets that they have NO DESIRE in giving up
• Penetrating the rest of the country thanks to the affiliate clubs indirectly giving free publicity to MLS and creating curiosity to check it out, after all, they are the better league, right?

I'll keep being a broken record on this but some of you needs to understand how business works, especially in pro-sports in a North American context.

 

[dyslexic nam]

10 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

When CanPL essential is trying to convince a group of millionaires/billionaires to spend their money on something that they likely would not have spent on their own, compromises are going to be necessary. As much as many people distrust MLSE, if they're willing to spend the money (and even better if they're willing to treat the league and their franchise in it they way people would hope they would ... as an independent professional team), then I don't know how the league could say no. Agree that there are risks with ownership groups who are potentially getting into this for the wrong reasons. However, I also agree that compromises will need to be made to get this to work. As much as CSEG & TNSE seem like sexy, big money owners, considering they are primarily hockey team owners, it's hard for me to see them as any better/worse than MLSE. In fact, at least MLSE has a 10 year history of screwing up to learn from. If they apply those lessons here, the league could be much better off for it. I realize this is all conjecture ... just thinking out loud.

For me, the issue isn't strictly about MLSE involvement - it is about the idea of TFC specifically being in some way a parent club to their CPL presence.  If MLSE could commit to operating an independent soccer team with no formal relationship to TFC (no player loans and thus no B team perception), then they could be a deep-pocketed ally in an emerging league.  But if their presence is predicated on a subordinate relationship to TFC, then it would run counter to the league's objectives.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just now, dyslexic nam said:

...then it would run counter to the league's objectives.

When have those ever been set out officially? All the CSA has really ever said publicly on this that I am aware of is that they want more pro level opportunities for Canadian players.

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

For me, the issue isn't strictly about MLSE involvement - it is about the idea of TFC specifically being in some way a parent club to their CPL presence.  If MLSE could commit to operating an independent soccer team with no formal relationship to TFC (no player loans and thus no B team perception), then they could be a deep-pocketed ally in an emerging league.  But if their presence is predicated on a subordinate relationship to TFC, then it would run counter to the league's objectives.

The only way that would work is for MLSE to be a minority owner of a CPL franchise. Otherwise it's a conflict of interest on the CPL side and MLS would let it slide because it would damage CPL brand.

There's a reason CSA and CPL flat out refuse affiliates in their league.

If they were starting a D2 league, I'd be the first to welcome any MLS affiliate in the D2 league, but that's not what's happening here, it's a D1. It's like Chelsea B Team playing in France Ligue 1, that would NEVER happen and if it did, no one would EVER take League 1 seriously

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just now, Ansem said:

...There's a reason CSA and CPL flat out refuse affiliates in their league...

When have they done this? can you provide a url to back that up?

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

When have they done this? can you provide a url to back that up?

It's been heavily implied by both official and unofficial reports. On the official side, articles that I've seen from the Province and the Sun all point out that B teams=B league. If I'm a serious investor, I walk away and let the A Teams run their own B League

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

So they haven't actually done it. You are just assuming that would be their posture. An interesting parallel would be with New Zealand. They have a Wellington Pheonix reserve team in their national league:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Football_Championship

and perennial champions Auckland City are talking about bidding for an expansion franchise in Australia's A League:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/domestic/86757235/auckland-city-make-tentative-moves-as-ffa-consider-twoteam-aleague-expansion

[Rheo]

It is in MLSE's and MLS' best interest to grow the game of soccer in Canada.  The bigger the game gets, the more they benefit from it.  The CPL is not direct challenge to MLS.  MLS and MLSE have no reason to undermine it.  The CPL is not the NASL trying to confront MLS at every step.  It's meant to be a league where Canadian players have more oppourtunities to play.  

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

So they haven't actually done it. You are just assuming that would be their posture. An interesting parallel would be with New Zealand. They have a Wellington Pheonix reserve team in their national league:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Football_Championship

and perennial champions Auckland City are talking about bidding for an expansion franchise in Australia's A League:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/domestic/86757235/auckland-city-make-tentative-moves-as-ffa-consider-twoteam-aleague-expansion

That's another reason no one cares or talk about the New Zealand league. Why would you want Canada to replicate that??? This view again that Canadians can't do anything without Americans is getting really old and tiring to read

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just now, Ansem said:

That's another reason no one cares or talk about the New Zealand league. Why would you want Canada to replicate that???

The CSA's stated goal is to provide more pro level opportunities for Canadian players and by the sounds of things it actually wouldn't be this model that would be adopted if the tweets are accurate (still a big if as it is single source info), given FC London (presumably) would continue to be as they are now an independent organization with an affiliation to TFC rather than a reserve team.

[-Hammer-]

17 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

So they haven't actually done it. You are just assuming that would be their posture. An interesting parallel would be with New Zealand. They have a Wellington Pheonix reserve team in their national league:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Football_Championship

and perennial champions Auckland City are talking about bidding for an expansion franchise in Australia's A League:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/domestic/86757235/auckland-city-make-tentative-moves-as-ffa-consider-twoteam-aleague-expansion

Yes Blizzard, they haven't done it, but given that there hasn't been an official league startup announcement either, this whole argument has been based on educated rumor from the get go. Yes, you are correct, there is no direct evidence that this would be their posture, but the amount of indirect evidence and sources on the subject advise this will likely not be their stance.

Regardless though, I think it's a simple fix. You don't allow movement between the MLS club and the affiliate during respective seasons, and put hard limits on player loans. No one has issue with MLS teams potentially poaching and paying transfer fees or buying out contracts (except that MLS is notorious for not playing solidarity payments, which is a huge problem) to grab CPL players and accept this may in fact happen. If TFC wants to start their own team, to lock up rights and develop players, that's fine. It needs to be made very clear, for the purposes of marketability and roster consistency, you can't treat any of these clubs like a farm team.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Rheo said:

It is in MLSE's and MLS' best interest to grow the game of soccer in Canada.  The bigger the game gets, the more they benefit from it.  The CPL is not direct challenge to MLS.  MLS and MLSE have no reason to undermine it.  The CPL is not the NASL trying to confront MLS at every step.  It's meant to be a league where Canadian players have more oppourtunities to play.  

Again putting the business hat here.

 

No one will ever publicly say it but MLS do see CPL as a "potential threat" to their monopoly in Canada. Named me 1 time a business was happy to lose it's monopoly in a market???

MLS have every reasons to undermine CPL to protect their current monopoly and hopefully grow to the rest of the country. Their goal is very simple, replicating what the NHL has done with only 7 franchise, NBA with 1 and MLB with 1. That's why MLS showed no interest in expanding in Canada as they just planned for the same thing to happen overtime. But CPL challenges that.

CPL isn't trying to compete with MLS. CPL will try to fill the gap where MLS is currently absent as it has failed in expanding outside of the big 3. MLS would see CPL as an obstacle in penetrating the rest of the country, unless you have the big 3 put affiliates in CPL in those gap locations. That's a clever way to maintain your monopoly. In the end, money talks.

The CSA wants more opportunities for Canadian players? CPL was the best way to go to have control on the domestic requirements they never had in USSF leagues. But, for CPL owners, they need to know they can make money and return on their investments. Having B Teams would hurt the brand and potential returns on investments. Why would they take such a risk to start and operate a league just to allow B teams in it that belongs to a league that ultimately aren't please with you challenging their business model? If people don't understand the concept of "conflict of interest" I really don't know what more I need to add to this

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The CSA's stated goal is to provide more pro level opportunities for Canadian players and by the sounds of things it actually wouldn't be this model that would be adopted if the tweets are accurate (still a big if as it is single source info), given FC London (presumably) would continue to be as they are now an independent organization with an affiliation to TFC rather than a reserve team.

The Canadian program failure is due to not enough Canadians playing minutes at TOP LEVEL.

Giving more opportunities to Canadians to have them play in D3 or D2 won't win you the HEX, just an FYI

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

OK, but what does that have to do with this thread? A league like CPL would form a stepping stone on the way to the genuine top level, which is leagues like the Premiership and Serie A.

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

Regardless though, I think it's a simple fix. You don't allow movement between the MLS club and the affiliate during respective seasons, and put hard limits on player loans. No one has issue with MLS teams potentially poaching and paying transfer fees or buying out contracts (except that MLS is notorious for not playing solidarity payments, which is a huge problem) to grab CPL players and accept this may in fact happen. If TFC wants to start their own team, to lock up rights and develop players, that's fine. It needs to be made very clear, for the purposes of marketability and roster consistency, you can't treat any of these clubs like a farm team.

Unlikely to clear with MLS ownership and commissioner. What you're saying is indeed ideal but it becomes a huge conflict of interest. They won't allow an owner to be double-dipping in 2 leagues potentially competing for the same fans unless it's an affiliate.

It's called conflict of interest for a reason.

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

OK, but what does that have to do with this thread? A league like CPL would form a stepping stone on the way to the genuine top level, which is leagues like the Premiership and Serie A.

You're too smart to not see where I'm going with this and you're just trying to win an argument.

CPL being a stepping stone to EPL or Serie A is a given, but if you accept affiliates in it, it becomes a stepping stone to MLS as it's unofficial B League... a league allergic to starting Canadians in the first place so they can further improve their skills. You can't get better if you don't play, period. Having them rot in CPL

You think those top leagues will be scouting CPL knowing it's full of USL (D3) players. How do you expect our own players to get better in those context?

Your turn...Let's twist this around for a change. You try to convince me by answering this simple question

Explain to me how your idea gets us pass the HEX, into the World Cup and actually performing in there?

[Rheo]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

No one will ever publicly say it but MLS do see CPL as a "potential threat" to their monopoly in Canada. Named me 1 time a business was happy to lose it's monopoly in a market???

 

First off I'm against direct MLS affiliates in the league for the record.

The level  between the two league will be different.  Disney doesn't worry about some indie movie being release the same day as Star Wars.  The CPL is going to be a level down quality wise for the forseeable future and maybe always.  MLS is done in Canada.  They got their foot in the three major cities and don't plan to do anything else here.  Meanwhile the CPL will expand the game across the country, attracting new fans, new players that will benefit MLS without them having to do anything.

It's not always a big conspiracy of the evil corporation trying to squash the new upstart.  Don Garber isn't sitting around MLS headquarters twirling his moustache thinking of ways to destroy the CPL.   I know this is an extreme example and I'm a bit far in the opposite Kumbaya/everyone can work together way but it is possible for two groups to work together without malice towards each other. 

Now to catch up and what was posted while I replied to this lol.

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

When have those ever been set out officially? All the CSA has really ever said publicly on this that I am aware of is that they want more pro level opportunities for Canadian players.

Considering nothing has been "set out officially", obviously not.  But common sense would indicate that the league would not set out to establish its identity as a feeder league for MLS.  And that is precisely what would happen if multiple teams were in a subordinate affiliation with existing MLS clubs.

[dyslexic nam]

49 minutes ago, Rheo said:

It is in MLSE's and MLS' best interest to grow the game of soccer in Canada.  The bigger the game gets, the more they benefit from it.  The CPL is not direct challenge to MLS.  MLS and MLSE have no reason to undermine it.  The CPL is not the NASL trying to confront MLS at every step.  It's meant to be a league where Canadian players have more oppourtunities to play.  

CPL may not be trying to compete with MLS at the outset, but there is a very real possibility that it could be competitive at some point - provided it bills itself as division one soccer in this country.  If it doesn't do that, and simply tries to be some filler league that is happy to exist in MLS's shadow, I think it will be doomed from that start.  And accepting TFC-B would be a great way to start making that happen right from the outset.

 

The goal may simply be "a league where Canadian players have more opportunities to play", but to do that will require a healthy league that generates sustained interest from fans and offers a level of play that actually helps develop Canadian footy.  A D2 Canadian league that accepts TFC's B team doesn't seem to be much improvement on what we already have with in terms of development opportunities.

 

I am not trying to paint some grandiose picture of what is could be.  I am simply pointing out that it needs to be at a certain level to:

- be self sufficient in terms of interest/revenue 

- meet the objective of advancing our elite player pool