Canadian Premier League

[Rheo]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

The goal may simply be "a league where Canadian players have more opportunities to play", but to do that will require a healthy league that generates sustained interest from fans and offers a level of play that actually helps develop Canadian footy.  A D2 Canadian league that accepts TFC's B team doesn't seem to be much improvement on what we already have with in terms of development opportunities.

Yeah in my second post I put I'm against B teams in the CPL.  Just don't agree with the assumption that they're trying to bury the league as inside job.

[Macksam]

13 minutes ago, Rheo said:

The level  between the two league will be different.  Disney doesn't worry about some indie movie being release the same day as Star Wars.  

Lol, ironically they did try to bully theatres into not using screens for Hateful 8, which technically is an indie movie I think. 

Anyhow, in all seriousness, at least the CPL isn't surrendering a big market to MLSE.

[Ansem]

28 minutes ago, Rheo said:

The level  between the two league will be different.  Disney doesn't worry about some indie movie being release the same day as Star Wars.  The CPL is going to be a level down quality wise for the forseeable future and maybe always.

Wow... You're not showing a lot of faith in our Canadian guys. I know MLS will be better technically at first but your Disney vs. Indie is a bit strong. I'm not overestimating Canadians players but a lot of people here are over-estimating MLS just a bit... By the way, Ligue 1 is a level down from La Liga but they are both Division 1. I'm arguing branding and not level of play.  

28 minutes ago, Rheo said:

MLS is done in Canada.  They got their foot in the three major cities and don't plan to do anything else here.  Meanwhile the CPL will expand the game across the country, attracting new fans, new players that will benefit MLS without them having to do anything.

Wrong. unless you can name me 1 business who purposely choose to not make more money? You're wrong of thinking that MLS didn't want to replicate what the Blue Jays have done or the 7 NHL franchise who accounts for over 33% of revenue of the entire NHL. No way my friend, they aren't done and they were happy to be the only Division 1 league available in Canada. CPL put a wrench in that plan

28 minutes ago, Rheo said:

It's not always a big conspiracy of the evil corporation trying to squash the new upstart.  Don Garber isn't sitting around MLS headquarters twirling his moustache thinking of ways to destroy the CPL.   I know this is an extreme example and I'm a bit far in the opposite Kumbaya/everyone can work together way but it is possible for two groups to work together without malice towards each other. 

It's not evil or a conspiracy. It's about business and making more money. That's capitalism after all and if they can make more money by protecting their markets and competing to expand their fanbase further, there's not way they are going to say to themselves: "let's leave CPL to our friendly Canadian friends up there".

Putting affiliates in CPL to expand indirectly MLS fanbase isn't evil, it's damn freaking smart and CPL are smart to say no thank you

No way, and that's why I know a lot of soccer fans here don't know how business work

[dyslexic nam]

14 minutes ago, Rheo said:

First off I'm against direct MLS affiliates in the league for the record.

The level  between the two league will be different.  Disney doesn't worry about some indie movie being release the same day as Star Wars.  The CPL is going to be a level down quality wise for the forseeable future and maybe always.  MLS is done in Canada.  They got their foot in the three major cities and don't plan to do anything else here.  Meanwhile the CPL will expand the game across the country, attracting new fans, new players that will benefit MLS without them having to do anything.

It's not always a big conspiracy of the evil corporation trying to squash the new upstart.  Don Garber isn't sitting around MLS headquarters twirling his moustache thinking of ways to destroy the CPL.   I know this is an extreme example and I'm a bit far in the opposite Kumbaya/everyone can work together way but it is possible for two groups to work together without malice towards each other. 

Now to catch up and what was posted while I replied to this lol.

A few points:

- MLS isn't the Disney/Star Wars juggernaut you allude to.  They have been growing slowly and gaining traction in a difficult landscape, but they are still far behind the other major leagues in terms of fanbase and revenue.  Similarly, a potential Canadian league is not some indie film put out by some unknown producer in Thunder Bay.  It is a potential launch of a competing league that would seek to absorb a lot of the interest and fanbase currently supporting our 3 MLS clubs.

-   I disagree with the idea that they're not "trying to bury the league as inside job".  I think the recent 'domestic rule' announcement strongly supports the idea that is precisely what they are hoping to do.  It would have been immensely easy to just treat Canadians and Americans the same in MLS with respect to domestic status.  Our player pool is clearly not a threat to the US, so if they had simply made the straightforward concession the whole issue would have disappeared.  They even had a reason to try and make Canadian fans happy with the announcement, considering we are now a solid, albeit minority, partner in the league. But they didn't. They chose to implement a rule that specifically requires domestics to sign their first pro contracts with an MLS club.  In the context of the very much current rumours about CPL, I take that a a pretty clear indication how much (lack of) interest they have in growing the game in North America regardless of the league involved.  They used that tool as an opportunity to undermine the future CPL player pool.  That, and common sense about helping a business competitor, tells me everything I need to know about MLS's motivation - even if I lack the firm factual evidence some are seeking.

[Rheo]

12 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Wow... You're not showing a lot of faith in our Canadian guys. I know MLS will be better technically at first but your Disney vs. Indie is a bit strong. I'm not overestimating Canadians players but a lot of people here are over-estimating MLS just a bit...

No way, and that's why I know a lot of soccer fans here don't know how business work

Yeah Star Wars comparison was strong and not well thought out (trying to formulate coherent thoughts in between working lol)  I'm not underestimating Canadian players with the statement but the money.  MLS will have more money than the CPL and players go where they get paid.  That will keep the level of the league down definitely at first and most likely in my opinion in the long run.  I'm not stupid or naive, I just don't always assume the worst.  I could be wrong, but we'll see.  Agree to disagree.  Cheers.

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

They chose to implement a rule that specifically requires domestics to sign their first pro contracts with an MLS club.  In the context of the very much current rumours about CPL, I take that a a pretty clear indication how much (lack of) interest they have in growing the game in North America regardless of the league involved.  They used that tool as an opportunity to undermine the future CPL player pool.  That, and common sense about helping a business competitor, tells me everything I need to know about MLS's motivation - even if I lack the firm factual evidence some are seeking

I think that rule was a half ass measure that will backfire on MLS

• I could only count 15 Canadians on USL Teams on American soil. Meaning, the new rule won't change anything on that front.
• The new rules doesn't stop the main Clubs from discriminating against Canadians, Unless you're Larin, nothing much will change
• However, this will push Canadian Clubs to put more academies out there so they can sign the very best Canadian to their club.
• Yes, MLS academies will be the top choice ahead of CPL Academy, but this is where the backfiring begins. MLS refusal to expand to Canada means you'll have more players in the MLS system but the availability of spots will remain the same. While in the MLS academy, those kids will receive the best in terms of training and coaching available in Canada assuming CPL will take time to offer the same.
• At some point, those players who will be in USL limbo will have a good idea at their chances of starting in MLS or not. Who can argue that there's quality players in USL and on MLS bench that are there due to protectionism?
• The kicker is that if they make it to USL, they become eligible to MLS domestic status. There was nothing in the announcement that said that it would be revoked if a player signed elsewhere AFTER signing their first pro contract with MLS or affiliate club
• Meaning, you'll end up with players having acquired that MLS domestic status ending up signing in CPL afterwards and starting enabling them to further their development.
• So why the backfiring? Because that profile of players would have been develop within the MLS system, with MLS team money but will be in CPL bringing with them same base (training-technic-coaching) as a MLS starter or depth player... in a nutshell, that stupid rule makes it less expensive for CPL to get quality Canadian players by having some of the costs invested by MLS teams. Add CPL future academies to that and the pool of quality players will increase faster over time.
• If MLS was expanding within Canada, yes that rule would have killed CPL but by staying put at 3 teams and more kids will funnel towards the top, CPL will end up having more quality players to choose from, which some of those would have been develop at MLS' expense

They didn't think too hard towards the future when they came up with that one...

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

29 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

CPL may not be trying to compete with MLS at the outset, but there is a very real possibility that it could be competitive at some point - provided it bills itself as division one soccer in this country

With teams in Halifax and possibly London?

[Rheo]

17 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

A few points:

- MLS isn't the Disney/Star Wars juggernaut you allude to.  They have been growing slowly and gaining traction in a difficult landscape, but they are still far behind the other major leagues in terms of fanbase and revenue.  Similarly, a potential Canadian league is not some indie film put out by some unknown producer in Thunder Bay.  It is a potential launch of a competing league that would seek to absorb a lot of the interest and fanbase currently supporting our 3 MLS clubs.

-   I disagree with the idea that they're not "trying to bury the league as inside job".  I think the recent 'domestic rule' announcement strongly supports the idea that is precisely what they are hoping to do.  It would have been immensely easy to just treat Canadians and Americans the same in MLS with respect to domestic status.  Our player pool is clearly not a threat to the US, so if they had simply made the straightforward concession the whole issue would have disappeared.  They even had a reason to try and make Canadian fans happy with the announcement, considering we are now a solid, albeit minority, partner in the league. But they didn't. They chose to implement a rule that specifically requires domestics to sign their first pro contracts with an MLS club.  In the context of the very much current rumours about CPL, I take that a a pretty clear indication how much (lack of) interest they have in growing the game in North America regardless of the league involved.  They used that tool as an opportunity to undermine the future CPL player pool.  That, and common sense about helping a business competitor, tells me everything I need to know about MLS's motivation - even if I lack the firm factual evidence some are seeking.

It was a lazy, rushed comparison.  Was meant more for the money driving the leagues and the effect on the level of play.  Like I said previously, I don't assume the worst.  I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.  But if you're right that MLS is trying to undercut the CPL with their half-ass domestic policy then you're indicating that the CSA is an accomplish and trying to hurt the very league they're starting.

As Freud said sometimes a banana is just a banana...

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Yeah Star Wars comparison was strong and not well thought out (trying to formulate coherent thoughts in between working lol)  I'm not underestimating Canadian players with the statement but the money.  MLS will have more money than the CPL and players go where they get paid.  That will keep the level of the league down definitely at first and most likely in my opinion in the long run.  I'm not stupid or naive, I just don't always assume the worst.  I could be wrong, but we'll see.  Agree to disagree.  Cheers.

I think that TFC 3 DPs have a bigger salary than all of Montreal Impact...combined. Same for Seattle.  Sure money increases the odds of winning but doesn't guarantee it either.

You can surprise richer teams by out-scouting them. That's my hope for CPL. The best way to cut cost on the pitch is to invest massively in your support staff (coaches, managers and scouts). I hope they spent adequately on that front, which could turn up getting them DPs like Piatti at $426k who plays like a $7M DPs and Internationals (southern hemisphere) that are comparable or as good in quality as MLS for cheaper.

The huge difference maker will be domestic players

• Ratio?
• Quality of those available on the market and in oversea teams. With a 6-8 team launch, the Canadian talent to start a competitive league is out there but will CPL teams be willing to overpay to get them? That is the main question here. That's what it's going to take to get guys in Europe playing in D2-D3 to come home.(depending on the league...I wouldn't leave top Euro D2 for Canada or the US). Same for South America.

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

With teams in Halifax and possibly London?

Not going to bother debating you.  In this thread you ask people for URL citations to back up their claims, yet in the Halifax thread you take the involvement of a TFC employee's brother as indicative of possible TFC involvement (despite the fact that the brother is a Nova Scotian, involved in Dal soccer, who could absolutely be there solely in terms of advancing NS soccer in a CPL context regardless of who his brother is or works for).  That seems like a case of applying a far more stringent burden of proof to others.

My points have been fairly clear, even if I can't provide a URL where they are backed up by direct CSA quotes:

- If CPL is to succeed, it can't be seen as an MLS feeder league.  The goal is to have a pro footy environment to advance Canadian development.  A B-league populated in part by loanees not good enough for MLS will not make that happen.

- the involvement of MLS B teams would lead directly to the perception that is is a farm league.  Aside from the impact on player development, this would very much curtail fan interest in the league and threaten its sustainability and growth potential.

 

[dyslexic nam]

3 minutes ago, Rheo said:

It was a lazy, rushed comparison.  Was meant more for the money driving the leagues and the effect on the level of play.  Like I said previously, I don't assume the worst.  I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.  But if you're right that MLS is trying to undercut the CPL with their half-ass domestic policy then you're indicating that the CSA is an accomplish and trying to hurt the very league they're starting.

As Freud said sometimes a banana is just a banana...

Unless CSA realized that they weren't going to get anything more helpful from MLS. Plus, MLS has the power to unilaterally  make this policy change since it is how the league chooses to deal wtih Canadian players.  CSA doesn't want to destroy our 3 MLS clubs, so they wouldn't come out hard against the announcement, but I don't know that they would have been thrilled about it. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

Not going to bother debating you.  In this thread you ask people for URL citations to back up their claims, yet in the Halifax thread you take the involvement of a TFC employee's brother as indicative of possible TFC involvemen...

Not sure what you are talking about on the latter bit. In the post I responded to it was Paul Beirne who was described as having various people from Halifax at MLS Cup. 

 

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

With teams in Halifax and possibly London?

Why not? That's the beauty of single entity system. Makes it easier for smaller markets to thrive making and if those markets makes money attendance-wise, even better.

[rob.notenboom]

I don't disagree that looking like a 'minor league' is something that could damage the league's reputation. I also don't disagree that there may be significant conflicts of interest between investors that have other sports franchises if they are investing in a team in CanPL. However, I anticipate that there will be compromises that need to be made simply due to the fact that there is likely not going to be barrels of investors stepping up to help start and continue the league. I'd love to be wrong of course, and I'd love in an ideal world that CanPL could get a dozen wealthy investors willing to make the league their number one priority and stay the course for years. I wouldn't bet that that will be the case.

One minor disagreement ... I'm not sure that MLSE investing in a team in London could be said to not be a 'Canadian solution.' They are a Canadian company with Canadian properties, potentially investing in a team in a Canadian league in a Canadain city, and presumably adhering to a Canadian player quota.

[dyslexic nam]

5 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Not sure what you are talking about on the latter bit. In the post I responded to it was Paul Beirne who was described as having various people from Halifax at MLS Cup. 

 

From the Hali thread:

"Alan would be Ante's brother?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Jazić

This suggests that TFC/MLS are on board with the whole CPL thing to a certain extent?"

 

My point is that you are willing to entertain a pretty damn tenuous link (with easily alternative explanations that are more plausible) to support your narrative of MLS/TFC involvement, while asking for others to provide URL citations for their claims.  That is a very unequal application of the burden of proof.

[Ansem]

15 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

However, I anticipate that there will be compromises that need to be made simply due to the fact that there is likely not going to be barrels of investors stepping up to help start and continue the league. I'd love to be wrong of course, and I'd love in an ideal world that CanPL could get a dozen wealthy investors willing to make the league their number one priority and stay the course for years. I wouldn't bet that that will be the case.

Just give it time. If the league does well in the earlier years and there's demand coming out of CPL viable markets, more investors will come...just like MLS. The investors are here, some jumped from the start, others want to see how it looks like before jumping in turn. Every leagues including MLS had to go through that process, same for CPL.

Look at CFL, 9 teams, better TV viewership and TV contract than MLS and comparable salary cap (excluding DP) and overall attendance. I'm not saying that CPL will be like CFL from the get go, but it's absurd to think that CPL reaching that level in Canada is impossible either with soccer being a more international sport than football. The ceiling is higher for soccer and investors can see that. The CPL launch will determine a lot on the things to come.

MLS already showed that there are not big at making compromise, they won't bend on conflict of interests, neither would CPL owners who have their money on the line.

15 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

One minor disagreement ... I'm not sure that MLSE investing in a team in London could be said to not be a 'Canadian solution.' They are a Canadian company with Canadian properties, potentially investing in a team in a Canadian league in a Canadain city, and presumably adhering to a Canadian player quota.

How sure are you that if  London produced a Kyle Larin that MLSE wouldn't find a way to get him to TFC? An independent London wouldn't give him away unless for a huge compensation in return. There's no such things between affiliate... hence "conflict of Interest"

London giving away a Larin or Bradley type of players for not much in return will alienate the fans and damage the league and it's brand... hence "conflict of Interest"

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

4 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

From the Hali thread:

"Alan would be Ante's brother?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Jazić

This suggests that TFC/MLS are on board with the whole CPL thing to a certain extent?"

 

My point is that you are willing to entertain a pretty damn tenuous link (with easily alternative explanations that are more plausible) to support your narrative of MLS/TFC involvement, while asking for others to provide URL citations for their claims.  That is a very unequal application of the burden of proof.

MLS Cup was held at BMO Field and was an MLS event. Paul Beirne is now an employee of CPL rather than MLSE. I have no idea if the post I responded to is even accurate and if they were even there (the Durty Nelly's bit seemed a bit odd), but if it is then who would have provided a block of expensive tickets for an event that sold out in terms of the public sale in about 3 minutes? The question mark should have made it clear that I was trying to elicit a response from the original poster on that.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

MLS Cup was held at BMO Field and was an MLS event. Paul Beirne is now an employee of CPL rather than MLSE.

You're stretching to make a point here... really...

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

No, I was asking a question.

[Kent]

58 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

With teams in Halifax and possibly London?

Halifax and London are both larger than the smallest city in the NFL, as well as the CFL. Just saying.

[dyslexic nam]

22 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

No, I was asking a question.

Okay.  But in the context of your ongoing posts about the MLSE's/TFC's possible involvement in CPL, there is an implication involved that is not simply negated by the use of a question mark.  

Anywho, I have seen enough of these exchanges to know that there is little resolution at the back end of them, so I won't debate the issue any further.  We are all rooting for the same thing - the advancement of Canadian footy.  I guess we just see different idealized paths to get there.  Mine involves a league that strives to be D1 soccer in this country and which can grow to rival MLS north of the border.  I am reasonably confident that something approximating that ideal will be required for CPL to succeed as a viable league that makes a lasting contribution to Canadian player development at the top level.  If I am wrong, and others' D2 vision manages to get the job done via a sustainable league that serves as feeder for a thriving MLS, it will still be a good outcome for Canadian footy.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

2 hours ago, Rheo said:

First off I'm against direct MLS affiliates in the league for the record.

The level  between the two league will be different.  Disney doesn't worry about some indie movie being release the same day as Star Wars.  The CPL is going to be a level down quality wise for the forseeable future and maybe always.  MLS is done in Canada.  They got their foot in the three major cities and don't plan to do anything else here.  Meanwhile the CPL will expand the game across the country, attracting new fans, new players that will benefit MLS without them having to do anything.

It's not always a big conspiracy of the evil corporation trying to squash the new upstart.  Don Garber isn't sitting around MLS headquarters twirling his moustache thinking of ways to destroy the CPL.   I know this is an extreme example and I'm a bit far in the opposite Kumbaya/everyone can work together way but it is possible for two groups to work together without malice towards each other. 

Now to catch up and what was posted while I replied to this lol.

Agreed.  I think the key is that you have room for both.  

I agree market CPL like it is equivalent to MLS as much as possible, but anyone who really knows football will know that, like you said, at least initially, CPL will be inferior in terms of quality.  MLS will continue to grow the game in the big markets and overall, and people should continue to support those teams when they can.  CPL will get more market penetrance on a local level.  I wasn't at the MLS cup final, but we all know that watching on TV vs a live game with chanting and singing is quite a bit different from watching a game on TV.  This is what people want anyways.  Even non-soccer people talk about going to european soccer matches for "the atmosphere".  Thats what we need to get out there on a local level, while still keeping a place in our heart for MLS.  For example, say saskatoon gets a team, you're a saskatoon fan first, but when TFC/IMFC/VWFC are on a playoff run, you'll be watching and following.

 

[BradMack]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Just give it time. If the league does well in the earlier years and there's demand coming out of CPL viable markets, more investors will come...just like MLS. The investors are here, some jumped from the start, others want to see how it looks like before jumping in turn. Every leagues including MLS had to go through that process, same for CPL.

Look at CFL, 9 teams, better TV viewership and TV contract than MLS and comparable salary cap (excluding DP) and overall attendance. I'm not saying that CPL will be like CFL from the get go, but it's absurd to think that CPL reaching that level in Canada is impossible either with soccer being a more international sport than football. The ceiling is higher for soccer and investors can see that. The CPL launch will determine a lot on the things to come.

MLS already showed that there are not big at making compromise, they won't bend on conflict of interests, neither would CPL owners who have their money on the line.

How sure are you that if  London produced a Kyle Larin that MLSE wouldn't find a way to get him to TFC? An independent London wouldn't give him away unless for a huge compensation in return. There's no such things between affiliate... hence "conflict of Interest"

London giving away a Larin or Bradley type of players for not much in return will alienate the fans and damage the league and it's brand... hence "conflict of Interest"

I'm against having B teams in this league and I feel it does damage the league if not done properly. But at a certain point you need to just think about things honestly. We've never had a Canadian league that has worked out before. Even today a lot of voyageurs don't think its a possibility. You're saying what if London develops a Bradley or a Larin, what if they sell him for pennies to TFC.... But you're completely avoiding another question. What if the only way London exists is with MLSE. We are going to need big money groups for this to work and they are one of the biggest involved in sports in this country. If done correctly it doesn't need to hurt the league. Has NYCFC hurt MLS? I'd argue they haven't, and theyre run like dogshit.

[-Hammer-]

57 minutes ago, Kent said:

Halifax and London are both larger than the smallest city in the NFL, as well as the CFL. Just saying.

You know what else is kinda awesome. They both also have a higher population then Bournemouth who has an EPL team.

[matty]

6 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

You know what else is kinda awesome. They both also have a higher population then Bournemouth who has an EPL team.

I don't think that's good point here because the system is completely different.