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3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Part of the skepticism is due to the demographics involved rather than anything IQ related. Nova Scotia hasn't had the recent waves of immigration from soccer loving countries that southern Ontario, the Montreal area and lower mainland BC have had.

They have no other league competing against a potential CPL franchise, not even CFL. You have to take that into consideration

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2 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Part of the skepticism is due to the demographics involved rather than anything IQ related. Nova Scotia hasn't had the recent waves of immigration from soccer loving countries that southern Ontario, the Montreal area and lower mainland BC have had.

 

Maybe not, but it has multiple universities located within a stones-throw of HRM, and those kids can support a rabid supporter culture.

 

I also haven't seen any evidence that the success of the existing MLS clubs has been predicated on immigrant support.  

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16 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They have no other league competing against a potential CPL franchise, not even CFL. You have to take that into consideration

I think that fact could be viewed as a deterrent. While you would have a monopoly on the market, you would be a test case for said market as well and you could be seen as a money pit by taxpayers if they build a new 20k seat stadium (with taxpayer money) and you're the only tenant and you're drawing 5-7k.

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12 hours ago, toontownman said:

No Regina team... because it's happening in Saskatoon! :D

Seriously though, no Saskatchewan representation and I riot. 

With the people running the new mosaic stadium making the asinine decision to stitch both soccer and football lines in the field because of "cost savings", they don't  put much confidence in me that they're very open to the idea of a soccer team shacking up with the Roughriders.

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2 minutes ago, matty said:

I think that fact could be viewed as a deterrent. While you would have a monopoly on the market, you would be a test case for said market as well and you could be seen as a money pit by taxpayers if they build a new 20k seat stadium (with taxpayer money) and you're the only tenant and you're drawing 5-7k.

If you're referring to Halifax, CPL is closely linked to the 2026 WC bid. A win for Canada or co bidding means that lots of infrastructure will be heavily subsidized. No WC then ownership or municipalities or both will have to build. That's why I don't see new stadiums being announced until the final decision on 2026 in 2020.

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5 minutes ago, Macksam said:

With the people running the new mosaic stadium making the asinine decision to stitch both soccer and football lines in the field because of "cost savings", they don't  put much confidence in me that they're very open to the idea of a soccer team shacking up with the Roughriders.

The stadium is owned by the City of Regina and not the Roughriders. It's up to the soccer club to make sure that the facility management team take care of the lines.

I don't see the city saying no to that request if the increase in revenue by hosting additional games covers the additional facility costs and turns up a profit

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2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

If you're referring to Halifax, CPL is closely linked to the 2026 WC bid. A win for Canada or co bidding means that lots of infrastructure will be heavily subsidized. No WC then ownership or municipalities or both will have to build. That's why I don't see new stadiums being announced until the final decision on 2026 in 2020.

World Cup would change things but I'm still be skeptical if Halifax would be included in that.

Past mentions of the bid I've seen have focused on the tournament sticking to the traditional 9 markets and using cfl stadiums for it with expanded seats. only minor mentioning of Moncton.

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2 minutes ago, matty said:

World Cup would change things but I'm still be skeptical if Halifax would be included in that.

Past mentions of the bid I've seen have focused on the tournament sticking to the traditional 9 markets and using cfl stadiums for it with expanded seats. only minor mentioning of Moncton.

With FIFA insane idea to expand the world cup to 40-48 teams, I'd say yeah, Halifax would be considered for a 40k stadium that can be downgraded after the tournament

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8 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

This is what we should have been seeing in lots of cities by now, if it were anywhere close to being finalized:

https://www.localxpress.ca/local-sports/pro-soccer-league-wants-to-include-halifax-483627

...There are reports that, aside from Halifax, Hamilton, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton and Winnipeg are each being courted for league entry. Beirne wouldn’t speculate on the lineup yet, except for Halifax, but said the early goal is to start with six to eight pro teams from coast to coast.

...

"This gives us an opportunity to play on that stage as national players but in a much more right-sized, reasonable format,” he said. “The plans for this league would be budgets around 6,000 to 8,000 fans per game. I'd always said that's the right size for Halifax. We've proven it for the Mooseheads and with the University Cup. When you start planning for events over 10,000 the numbers don't work. Our population can't sustain that."

...

"It would be about 15 home games a year,” he said of the Canadian Premier League use from late April to November. He said once there was a proper facility other sports, such as rugby and outdoor lacrosse, could be played there and other sporting events brought to the city...

Would love to see something like this work and to be completely wrong about this, but my honest assessment is that you would have to be smoking crack to think you are going to get 6000 to 8000 paid fifteen times a season for D2 level soccer in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Find a way to make the numbers work on 1500 to 2000 and maybe you might get somewhere.

Your honest assessment doesn't hold much weight.

51 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Part of the skepticism is due to the demographics involved rather than anything IQ related. Nova Scotia hasn't had the recent waves of immigration from soccer loving countries that southern Ontario, the Montreal area and lower mainland BC have had.

Again with this argument? If we go with it, recent waives of immigrants from soccer loving countries haven't flooded Indianapolis and Cleveland either.

12 minutes ago, Ansem said:

With FIFA insane idea to expand the world cup to 40-48 teams, I'd say yeah, Halifax would be considered for a 40k stadium that can be downgraded after the tournament

Why spend more money and downgrade after? Like my Mama told me when buying me a new shirt 17 to 20 years ago, she said you'll grow into it.

 

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12 minutes ago, Ansem said:

With FIFA insane idea to expand the world cup to 40-48 teams, I'd say yeah, Halifax would be considered for a 40k stadium that can be downgraded after the tournament

We'll have to see in a month but if that change happens and is set for 2026 i could see plans changing for the canada bid

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23 minutes ago, matty said:

I think that fact could be viewed as a deterrent. While you would have a monopoly on the market, you would be a test case for said market as well and you could be seen as a money pit by taxpayers if they build a new 20k seat stadium (with taxpayer money) and you're the only tenant and you're drawing 5-7k.

Why would they build a 20k money-pit stadium if 5-7k is the CPL break even point and attendance, according to some, is anticipated to be well below 5k.  Seems like an obviously ill-advised business decision that no one would pursue.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Why would they build a 20k money-pit stadium if 5-7k is the CPL break even point and attendance, according to some, is anticipated to be well below 5k.  Seems like an obviously ill-advised business decision that no one would pursue.

 

 

20k for the possibility of bringing in cfl in the future. I think most attemps to build cpl stadiums would need to have the goal of housing both cpl and cfl.

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1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I preface pretty much every post these days with an acknowledgement of my ignorance.  And this will be no different.

I know little about the cash flow in these situations, but I was under the impression that TV revenues and merch are collectively more important than gate receipts.  No idea how that translates in a small start-up league where all revennue streams are likely important, but I wonder if the core issue is comparing the value of a team that may (or may not - Atlantic Canada tends to surprise people with the level of support we can muster) have reduced ticket sales  versus the value of more robust regional support for a "Canadian" league that ignores an entire region of the country. 

I am biased in this one - it annoys me when CPL is discussed and many proponents have 3 Ontario teams as part of the original 6, and nothing east of Quebec.  Population aside (and I do get the idea of why ON would support 3 teams), something about that strikes me as a bit naive to think that the entire country will rally around a league like that.  Sure, some folks in the Atl region may either cheer for an ON or QC based team if they are really passionate about footy.  Then again, with MLS already in place, there isn't much incentive to jump ship to CPL.  And if you want to ensure only lukewarm interest in the region, pretending it doesn't exist is a great way to start.  From a single-entity-league perspective, it may be the case that one slightly underperforming market may bring enough coast-to-coast coverage and national feel that the league is better off absorbing a bit of a hit than completely neglecting it.  And to be frank, I would question whether or not it would really underperform in comparison to some of the other locations tossed around.

Regina has a population of 193k

Winnipeg = 600k

Saskatoon = 222k

Victoria = 344k

Halifax = 390k.  So more than Regina, Saskatoon, and Victoria.  Throw in the potential drawing capacity of nearby NS towns (add another 100k+ in your  catchment area) and the possibility of road trips from NB (Moncton is 2.5 hrs away) and the supporter pool seems pretty reasonable - especially in the context of some of the other candidates which were dismissed so easily.

Will it work?  No fucking clue.  Does it warrant consideration?  From my extremely biased perspective, hells yeah.  And is it possible that there is a legit business case for a new Canadian league not ignoring 4 provinces?  In my perspective, yes.  If folks want Atlantic Canadians to support the new league, including us would be a pretty basic prerequisite for most.  We tend to get treated like the dim-witted cousin, and speaking as an insider, that isn't a factor that should be underestimated if the league cares about Atlantic Canadian support.

About your question of the importance of gate revenue vs TV, sponsorship, merch, etc. You are kind of right and kind of wrong. The bigger the league, the less important the gates. For leagues like the NFL, NBA, EPL, etc, gate receipts make up a low percentage of revenue for the leagues. For a league like MLS even, gates are still very important. For CPL, it will be by far the most important revenue generator. There is virtually 0 chance that there will be a significant amount of money from TV in the first few seasons, in fact it could be free broadcast rights, or even the league may have to help pay a TV network to subsidize the networks expenses for covering the league. Similarly for sponsorship, you need fans first before you get significant sponsorship money, and of course March as well.

All that said, I would be so happy if a team works in Atlantic Canada. Especially assuming CPL does it first (ie, before CFL, no disrespect meant to CFL). I do think it could be a selling point for the league, and could embolden other investors to give it a shot in other smallish markets. Will it work? Like you, I have no idea, but I will be very happy if it does... and I haven't ven ever been to the Maritimes.

On a tangent now, have you seen any traction where you live (PEI if I'm not mistaken?) with regards to the TFC/Impact series? Or did that go largely unnoticed?

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21 minutes ago, Kent said:

About your question of the importance of gate revenue vs TV, sponsorship, merch, etc. You are kind of right and kind of wrong. The bigger the league, the less important the gates. For leagues like the NFL, NBA, EPL, etc, gate receipts make up a low percentage of revenue for the leagues. For a league like MLS even, gates are still very important. For CPL, it will be by far the most important revenue generator. There is virtually 0 chance that there will be a significant amount of money from TV in the first few seasons, in fact it could be free broadcast rights, or even the league may have to help pay a TV network to subsidize the networks expenses for covering the league. Similarly for sponsorship, you need fans first before you get significant sponsorship money, and of course March as well.

All that said, I would be so happy if a team works in Atlantic Canada. Especially assuming CPL does it first (ie, before CFL, no disrespect meant to CFL). I do think it could be a selling point for the league, and could embolden other investors to give it a shot in other smallish markets. Will it work? Like you, I have no idea, but I will be very happy if it does... and I haven't ven ever been to the Maritimes.

On a tangent now, have you seen any traction where you live (PEI if I'm not mistaken?) with regards to the TFC/Impact series? Or did that go largely unnoticed?

There is interest, but to be honest, I don't have the luxury of being too active in the supporter social scene.  2 young kids, in multiple sports, and a need to keep "the wife" happy pretty much ties up my time.  I am sometimes envious of the folks on here who can breathe footy, but it isn't in the cards for me now.  You do see merch floating around though, and there is definitely a growing respect for MLS. 

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17 minutes ago, matty said:

20k for the possibility of bring in cfl in the future. I think most attemps to build cpl stadiums would need to have the goal of housing both cpl and cfl.

Their best best would be to build a single-sided 7,5k stadium for soccer, that could be expanded to 20k down the line if/when the CFL were to ever expand. This way, you're not reliant on the latter happening (which I wouldn't count on anytime soon).

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24 minutes ago, matty said:

20k for the possibility of bring in cfl in the future.

I would think that building a modest stadium with expansion potential would be far more sensible/prudent.

plus, two of your arguments are at least somewhat mutually exclusive:

- that a large stadium would be built  to co-house a futureCFL team 

- that a CPL team would be the lone occupant of a largely empty 20k stadium

 

maybe I am coming across as argumentative, but it seems like some pretty loose arguments are being put forward in general on this one.

Halifax doesn't have the population. (Well, it is a larger market than many of the other locations tossed out without much resistance). Oh, no, I meant it doesn't have a population of diverse immigrants.  (I have seen no evidence that other small markets do, or that the immigrant population has been instrumental to success in existing markets).  Well, there is the whole stadium issue.  (What stadium issue?). Building a 20k stadium and then only 1/4 filling it. (No one suggested building a 20k stadium except to dismiss it as a negative). Well it would need to be built for CFL.  (But that team doesn't yet exist, so building an albatross stadium seems a bit odd, and something that wouldn't get public funding without some kind of guarantee - thus see my "dim-witted cousin" comment).

I suppose I am to emotionally invested in this one to debate rationally.  One thing I am sure of, though and will reiterate, is that if you expect Atl Canada to get behind CPL, you need to give us collectively a reason.  Ignoring us does not do that, and doesn't give people here a reason to support the Barrie OntariosFouthTeamSuckItAtlCanadas over TFC.

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3 minutes ago, David C. said:

Their best best would be to build a single-sided 7,5k stadium for soccer, that could be expanded to 20k down the line if/when the CFL were to ever expand. This way, you're not reliant on the latter happening (which I wouldn't count on anytime soon).

I largely agree but think which ever is cheapest (all at once or half now half later) would get get the green light. It seems to go either way lately

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5 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I would think that building a modest stadium with expansion potential would be far more sensible/prudent.

plus, two of your arguments are at least somewhat mutually exclusive:

- that a large stadium would be built  to co-house a futureCFL team 

- that a CPL team would be the lone occupant of a largely empty 20k stadium

 

maybe I am coming across as argumentative, but it seems like some pretty loose arguments are being put forward in general on this one.

Halifax doesn't have the population. (Well, it is a larger market than many of the other locations tossed out without much resistance). Oh, no, I meant it doesn't have a population of diverse immigrants.  (I have seen no evidence that other small markets do, or that the immigrant population has been instrumental to success in existing markets).  Well, there is the whole stadium issue.  (What stadium issue?). Building a 20k stadium and then only 1/4 filling it. (No one suggested building a 20k stadium except to dismiss it as a negative). Well it would need to be built for CFL.  (But that team doesn't yet exist, so building an albatross stadium seems a bit odd, and something that wouldn't get public funding without some kind of guarantee - thus see my "dim-witted cousin" comment).

I suppose I am to emotionally invested in this one to debate rationally.  One thin I am sure of, and will reiterate, is that if you expect Atl Canada to get behind CPL, you need to give us collectively a reason.  Ignoring us does not do that, and doesn't give people here a reason to support the Barrie OntariosFouthTeamSuckItAtlCanadas over TFC.

I'm in favour of Halifax getting a team and think they could support one but don't think the monopoly on the market is what people are making it out to be.

The stadium thing is just if they do go for a brand new one (which many here have counted on happening which is why i said it) as opposed to that one they have.

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I just don't think a 20k stadium would ever be built without league assurance that a 2nd CFL tenant would be awarded to warrant the investment. No astute businessmen would build a facility on a hope, especially recognizing the terrible optics of the first tenant playing in a stadium that is 3/4 empty.  And re the issue of public funding, no government agency would sign off on the millions required to fund such a stadium without tenant guarantees from the leagues involved.  It doesn't make sense for anyone involved.

 

Anywho, I will let it go.  I know we are all on the same team. 

Go CPL!

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14 hours ago, toontownman said:

Seriously though, no Saskatchewan representation and I riot. 

That will be an awesome riot to watch on TV. ;)

 

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

... it annoys me when CPL is discussed and many proponents have 3 Ontario teams as part of the original 6, and nothing east of Quebec.

Hey I am surprised when we get so much love here in Victoria. I think that Halifax and Moncton are strong potential locations.

 

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Nova Scotia hasn't had the recent waves of immigration from soccer loving countries that southern Ontario, the Montreal area and lower mainland BC have had.

Interesting analysis. I don't think immigration has anything to do with the rise in popularity of soccer. IMO immigrant communities have been resistant to Canadian soccer and the current popularity is 3rd generation or greater Canadians embracing the worlds game.

 

40 minutes ago, Kent said:

For a league like MLS even, gates are still very important. For CPL, it will be by far the most important revenue generator.

It is also crucial to TV deals which may someday be sources of revenue for the league as no one wants to watch games on TV without stands full of people. 

The dead atmosphere in some of the those European matches was horroble. I think Champions or Europa League earlier this year had a match played in an empty stadium and it was painful to watch for even a minute.

 

19 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I would think that building a modest stadium with expansion potential would be far more sensible/prudent.

Oh so much this! Build for 6 - 8,000 with the capacity to expand.

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1 minute ago, ted said:

Interesting analysis. I don't think immigration has anything to do with the rise in popularity of soccer. IMO immigrant communities have been resistant to Canadian soccer and the current popularity is 3rd generation or greater Canadians embracing the worlds game.

Not my experience at TFC games, but I'll admit that's anecdotal.

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39 minutes ago, ted said:

Interesting analysis. I don't think immigration has anything to do with the rise in popularity of soccer. IMO immigrant communities have been resistant to Canadian soccer and the current popularity is 3rd generation or greater Canadians embracing the worlds game.

 

I think it has something to do with it and that it can't be dismissed.  But I think a bigger factor is the (for lack of a better term) The Field Of Dreams effect.  (Please take with a grain of salt-eternal optimist)

The biggest factor for me becoming a fan was attending a game.  I was a casual fan.  Watched TFC from the beginning.  Would perk up when I saw Canada was playing but nothing major.

I randomly went and saw Canada/US in Detroit for the 2011 Gold Cup.  I had mentioned it to friends and there was some interest but nothing concrete.  Day of the match I said what the hell and decided to go by myself.  Found this board, found out where the pregame was and made my way over.  Found someone with an extra ticket, talked him down $5 and bought him a beer.  

From there I hung around and my mind got blown.  The Outlaws Marching by us.  Our hundred foot march across the street.  And one of the top sporting moments of my life.  We got beat but it was just amazing. I could go on forever on this but this already probably way too sports sappy and long.

Now I've gone to Toronto to see a World Cup qualifier, remember watching Benny's Fresh Mart on my phone, spend way too much time in here and can't wait until the next game is played.  That's what is so important about the TFC/Impact run this year.  People see the crowds, they see how crazy it looks and the passion of the fans and it peaks their interest.  That's why the CPL is so important.  That's why we need more home friendlies.

If you build it (go to a game) they will come (back).  

 

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