Gian-Luca Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I though it might be a good idea to have a running thread on crap MLS officiating so as to put all of our complaints and laughs for the season in one thread, leaving the other threads to discuss player and team performances. Let's see how much longer this thread is by the end of the season This paragraph by Kristian Jack at tsn.ca was, I thought, well written and funny, a laugh which I needed after seeing the latest Dave Gantar debacle, and starts the thread off on a lighter note: "It was only four days ago that I wrote a piece about poor refereeing. Such a piece can be exhausting to write so to have to write about another poor refereeing performance today is frustrating. In that piece, I had pushed for referees to take more time, talk to their assistants to make sure they get the call right. Dave Gantar did all of that except the bit about being right. It took the Canadian referee SIXTY FOUR seconds from the moment Morrow challenged Ethan Finley to the time he brought out the red card. During that one minute and four seconds he also managed to forget who it was who actually made the challenge as he initially gave a red to Perquis. Referees have a very difficult job but this was not a time for sympathy. Gantar, for once, decided not to be judge and jury, used help to consult, but then returned with a woefully inept verdict and attempted to punish a blameless man for an act that should have been thrown out of court. Once he had found the apparent guilty man the whole thing had graduated from a laugh to an absolute farce and the only one who should have been held to questioning was Gantar himself." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccerpro Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 The Penalty from RSL Philly tonight may have been the worst Pk call I've ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barthez-Battalion Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Read Daniel Squizzato's timeline on Twitter on his rant on how we treat refs as a culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shermanator Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Steven Sandor went on a rant as well about the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklefan Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I don't understand the point of complain against the refs. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but does anyone ever seen a referee cancel a PK or free kick because the players of the other team have complained? IMO, the most important moment of a game shouldn't be a bad call of the ref. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aloyol Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 The Gantar call might even be the correct one since there was contact before he touched the ball. Of course the mess he made by issuing a RC to the wrong player looked bad but at the end the correct call was made. At the end of the day, this is a tough call for any ref and you cańt compare that to the PK call againt Philadelphia. That was a real bad call that should not happen at this level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 ^ Though the call was correct. Execution on the red card a real hash but no harm done in the end as the rightfully responsible player was sent packing. But yes, not realy one of those confidense building exercise though was it? Don't really think the quality of the ref'ing is any better or worse than the quality of play, so far anyway. It has its good and its bad. It isn't great but it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 ^ Though the call was correct. Execution on the red card a real hash but no harm done in the end as the rightfully responsible player was sent packing. But yes, not realy one of those confidense building exercise though was it? Don't really think the quality of the ref'ing is any better or worse than the quality of play, so far anyway. It has its good and its bad. It isn't great but it is what it is. Exactly, what do you want, great refs for a sloppily played league? What I do find, though, is that MLS refs are weak psychologically, they are fragile and influeced by game flows they should be resistant to. Especially when you are connected to three other guys who can help you out and are supposed to be work with you as a team. MLS reffing teams are not very cohesive, less so than others I have seen. And a quite a few look overweight to me, leading to poor positioning. It is quite ofter worse in Champions where refs from minor Euro leagues, and sometimes big ones, have to handle games way over their heads, with speed and complexity (the need to read the game right and consistently) they are not used to, and a lot fail. If you ref in Sweden or Scotland you have to let a type of play go that you can't in Europe, and most can't make the transition. Even refs like Webb from England were over their heads in Europe and on the world stage. Spanish refs are uncommunicative and unnecessarily authoritative. Only a few do well and can cross cultures. This week the red against Shaktar was an example, that was iffy; or the weak-willed character of the Chelsea-PSG ref, cowering before the home side crowding. Even the guy who many thought was so fantastic, Collina, was totally capricious and cavalier, waving off clear calls and then being very authoritative on others, he was not the best of his day by far. He was just attitude and a "haircut" to go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shamrock Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I get it your point is reffing is hard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 He gets the ball but also takes out the players legs in the process. It is a dangerous foul that illegally stops a scoring chance, getting the ball does not mean that a foul is not committed http://www.refblog.com/non-blog/ballfirst.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 He gets the ball but also takes out the players legs in the process. It is a dangerous foul that illegally stops a scoring chance, getting the ball does not mean that a foul is not committed http://www.refblog.com/non-blog/ballfirst.pdf You seriously think that's an example of a player being "careless, reckless or using excessive force"? You've got a strange definition of those terms if so. There is nothing dangerous about the challenge at all. It's not from behind, it's not a studs-up challenge against the player's feet or legs and he doesn't go through the player to get the ball. His feet are not high either. His feet get all ball and the initial contact that is made is shoulder to shoulder as Morrow establishes the inside position on him first before reaching for the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 What I love to laugh at is the side judges who wait for the ref to make a call and THEN wave their flag like they're making it. Wait to see what someone else will do first and then act all important rather than just call what you see. A case in point was Sam's grabbing the player who beat him (only time all game that happened) and stretching his jersey 3 feet from his back. It was funny and I called it before the ref did but the point is that the folul was point blank in front of the side judge who stood there with his flag down until the ref called it. Then he gets all excited and waves his flag. Talk about delayed response. As to the Morrow foul I've watched several times and I'm interested in what Da'Borg calls it tomorrow but I'll say no foul and definitely not a red card. I seriously think Gantar engages in reverse discrimination. Consciously or subconsciously he feels that because he's Canadian that he has to go hard on the Canadian teams to prevent looking like he's favouring them. A chant of "Gantar Sucks" is in order any time he officiates in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 You seriously think that's an example of a player being "careless, reckless or using excessive force"? You've got a strange definition of those terms if so. There is nothing dangerous about the challenge at all. It's not from behind, it's not a studs-up challenge against the player's feet or legs and he doesn't go through the player to get the ball. His feet are not high either. His feet get all ball and the initial contact that is made is shoulder to shoulder as Morrow establishes the inside position on him first before reaching for the ball. He takes Finlay's legs out from under him, it is indeed a very dangerous tackle. It is a player who doesn't have position on the attacker physically taking him down to end a scoring opportunity. He doesn't even get the ball away from danger (not that that actually matters in a dangerous tackle), it is the taking out of the legs of the attacker that stops the scoring opportunity (had Finlay been able to stay on his feet he may have gotten to the ball before Bendik even after Morrow's clearance). Getting the ball first does not mean a player has carte blanche to make dangerous tackles or stop scoring opportunities by physically stopping the player in the process. I think this is precisely the type of play/situation that foul rules are meant to stop. I think MLS reffing is pretty bad overall and certain refs do seem to hate certain teams whether it is intentional or just by chance that a lot of bad calls go against a certain team (I would be happy to never see Petrescu ref another Impact game) but I don't think Gantar got this one wrong. And as bad as MLS refs are and as much as we all see things through our own team coloured glasses and like to complain, the amount of complaining from TFC about refs from its management, coaches, players through to its fans is another level than most teams. If you watch the press conferences of game after game of __________ (insert name of former TFC coach) you would think that the only thing wrong with this team was the reffing and the fans seem to share this view. What gets lost in all of the complaining is the role of the players in all of this. For example, in this case no one is commenting on how horrible a mistake Perquis made on this play where the ball is played to his feet and instead of controlling it he lets it bounce off into the path of Finley. That is what TFC fans/management should be talking about. I blame Ciman for the penalty against Pachuca even though the Mexican clearly dove because Ciman lost position on him and made enough contact that almost any striker is going down let alone a Mexican striker and Ciman should have known that. Focus on what can be changed on a team not the things you don't have control over. And teams that complain a lot usually do get a bad rep among refs and that can cost them in the future too. For the most part the bad reffing evens out during the year and teams suffer and benefit equally from it. No one complains when their team gets a bad call in their advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shamrock Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Focus on what can be changed on a team not the things you don't have control over. And teams that complain a lot usually do get a bad rep among refs and that can cost them in the future too. For the most part the bad reffing evens out during the year and teams suffer and benefit equally from it. No one complains when their team gets a bad call in their advantage. So true. Sometimes it can be harsh but trainers and players never complain about that bogus penalty call that went in their favor the week before. It all evens out through the course of a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 He takes Finlay's legs out from under him, it is indeed a very dangerous tackle. It is a player who doesn't have position on the attacker physically taking him down to end a scoring opportunity. It's not in any way dangerous. What exactly is the "danger" here? All of the elements that I indicated in my previous post which are normally associated with making dangerous tackles are not there. Neither is it a "late" challenge (the other criteria normally associated with dangerous challenge) or something that uses "excessive force" that the link you posted was referring to. I''d say Morrow does establish position on Finley - that's why Finley is behind Morrow when he trips over Morrow's legs (which have reached the ball by this point) and why Morrow's left foot is able to get on to the left of the ball even though Morrow is coming from the right. He was also able go shoulder to shoulder with Finley prior to moving in front of him. Your wording in the post above would normally be used to describe a player who contacts the player first or goes through the player to get the ball, which isn't what happened. Gantar would never know if he got the call correct because he was too far behind the play, and the assistant Ref didn't seem to think it was a foul because he didn't raise his flag on the play. Gantar appears to have gone over to his assistant to ask if the player was the last man back and ended up fingering the wrong player in the process, which is hardly convincing officiating. It is in fact the definition of crap officiating. Hence its inclusion in this thread. Though I agree with the others that the PK call in the RSL-Union game trumps this from last week's games. Oh, and given Bradley's "We put ourselves in a bad position" (on the play) headline on MLSsoccer.com and his comments about the team not playing up to its capabilities in the 2nd half (also echoed by the coach), I am not overly worried that the blame is all being placed on the refs. I agree that Ryan Nelsen whined too much about officiating, but it would be very bizarre for any coach not to complain about that game-changing call, especially when the media asks him about it post game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 He doesn't trip over Morrow's legs, Morrow takes his legs out which is both dangerous and illegal. The fact that Morrow also touches the ball or even was probably aiming at the ball does not negate the fact that he takes out Finlays legs which is a foul. Yes the mixup in who committed the foul is embarrassing and unprofessional. Some refs might have judged Perquis near enough not to call Morrow the last man but the foul call is legitimate and if you judge that Morrow stopped a clear goal scoring opportunity (actually there is no last man rule, it is whether a clear goal scoring opportunity has been hindered) then a red is the only possibility. I think the only debate is whether Perquis was close enough to negate the goal scoring opportunity legally. I think it is not likely he could have but maybe not impossible either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I was working when the game was on and only watched portions of it (I missed the red card) so here are the highlights for those of us who didn't see the play: http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2015/03/14/toronto-fcs-greg-vanney-takes-issue-justin-morrow-red-card-loss-vs-columbus- Looks like a 50/50 ball to me as Finlay has pushed it ahead of himself and Morrow (who was level) has every right to fight him for it. No foul, just a good defensive play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 BTW for me that was not a foul even, or at least borderline, even the way Finlay falls is suspicious. It is a pretty good tackle, only problem is that he tries to trap the ball instead of clearing it, and it looks worse that way; but for me the ref blew it. But if you have the ref way off and behind and the linesman on the "wrong" side, they are not going to see it right. It looks like he's cutting a breakaway off just at the top of the box. It's a mistake, but you cannot say there is bad will there I don't think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 BTW for me that was not a foul even, or at least borderline, even the way Finlay falls is suspicious. It is a pretty good tackle, only problem is that he tries to trap the ball instead of clearing it, and it looks worse that way; but for me the ref blew it. But if you have the ref way off and behind and the linesman on the "wrong" side, they are not going to see it right. It looks like he's cutting a breakaway off just at the top of the box. It's a mistake, but you cannot say there is bad will there I don't think. QFT. He has both legs in there and tries to corral the ball between his legs which makes it look akward and sloppy and gives the appearance of being reckless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aloyol Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Here s the reverse angle that was posted on BS refs forum: https://vine.co/v/O9LEQhFiL93 You can see that Morrow made contact with the Colombus player just before he got to the ball. Foul IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Here s the reverse angle that was posted on BS refs forum: https://vine.co/v/O9LEQhFiL93 You can see that Morrow made contact with the Colombus player just before he got to the ball. Foul IMHO. Voila. Case closed. I think it was apparent from the other angle too but he takes the legs out and touches the ball in the process. Clear foul, touching the ball does not negate a foul. And from this angle it is absolutely clear that he touches the player before the ball so even that rule would not apply under any interpretation of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 Here s the reverse angle that was posted on BS refs forum: https://vine.co/v/O9LEQhFiL93 You can see that Morrow made contact with the Colombus player just before he got to the ball. Foul IMHO. Unsurprisingly, that angle doesn't show anything different that the other ones did, which were pretty comprehensive. Jeffrey & jpg's comments are still spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Am I missing something? That vine is showing as a still image for me...i keep reloading it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub Narcotic Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 The general consensus now from non-TFC fans is that this was a foul and the correct call. We'll see MLS uphold the card and suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aloyol Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 The general consensus now from non-TFC fans is that this was a foul and the correct call. We'll see MLS uphold the card and suspension. True. I'm pretty sure if Morrow was a Honduras defender and the Colombus player was Simeon Jackson in a crucial WCQ G-L would think this was a foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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