A Workable National D3?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Another recent development that might be worth a look in an Ontario context is the new OPDL youth setup that is being pushed by the OSA:

http://www.ontariosoccer.net/Portals/11/LTPD/OPDL.pdf

http://www.cansoc.org/showthread.php?44086-New-Ontario-Player-Development-League

League One Ontario is likely to tie into that if it ever gets off the ground.

[Juby]

Another recent development that might be worth a look in an Ontario context is the new OPDL youth setup that is being pushed by the OSA:

http://www.ontariosoccer.net/Portals/11/LTPD/OPDL.pdf

http://www.cansoc.org/showthread.php?44086-New-Ontario-Player-Development-League

League One Ontario is likely to tie into that if it ever gets off the ground.

once again, this is a hypothetical national league topic, not a L1O discusson (nor a specifically CSL or PLSQ topic). Your talking about Ontarian soccer like whatever Ontario does the rest will surely follow... The L1O/CSL issue is regionally our smallest concern, the gaps are more important here then lower level Ontario soccer, If you want to talk about L1O the way people discuss the CSL, just start a L1O threads

[canadianfoot]

Agreed lets keep treads separate

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

L1O will/would be a D3 level league. It is highly relevant to the discussion of how the D3 level is going to evolve in Canada. If there is going to be an emphasis on player development rather than on a conventional semi-pro format as was reported to have been recommended by Jim Easton and the Rethink study then L1O could easily form the template to be copied elsewhere. The fact that provincial level D3 leagues are emerging in Quebec and Ontario demonstrates that it isn't just the CSA that will be calling the shots on how this unfolds. Where sanctioning standards are concerned I think you will find that the OSA have been able to deviate from the national set of D3 standards when framing the requirements for the new league.

[kj52]

once again, this is a hypothetical national league topic, not a L1O discusson (nor a specifically CSL or PLSQ topic). Your talking about Ontarian soccer like whatever Ontario does the rest will surely follow... The L1O/CSL issue is regionally our smallest concern, the gaps are more important here then lower level Ontario soccer, If you want to talk about L1O the way people discuss the CSL, just start a L1O threads

Actually I thought it was interesting. Thanks for bringing that up Blizz.

[Redcoatsforever]

None of what you've just said changes the fact that you keep talking about a potential provincial league in a thread called "A workable national D3".

[canadianfoot]

Can the CSA force the Provincial Associations into forming a league with their own criteria? Instead of the Provinces making their own things?

Of course if there is an actual situation where there are investors willing to invest already lined up

[Juby]

L1O will/would be a D3 level league.

No, L1O means League 1 Ontario, as in OSA sanctioned, D-3 referred to CSA sanctioned third division or 'national' if looking at the thread title doesn't violate your 'block' list.

If there is going to be an emphasis on player development rather than on a conventional semi-pro format as was reported to have been recommended by Jim Easton and the Rethink study then L1O could easily form the template to be copied elsewhere. The fact that provincial level D3 leagues are emerging in Quebec and Ontario demonstrates that it isn't just the CSA that will be calling the shots on how this unfolds. Where sanctioning standards are concerned I think you will find that the OSA have been able to deviate from the national set of D3 standards when framing the requirements for the new league.

How is 'the conventional semi-pro' format not emphasizing player development? Are you saying it's better to pay the players nothing to make the same sacrifices for the same coaches on a smaller budget? Also, the leagues your talking about emerging are based on a semi pro format... (What exactly is L1O offering for player development that the CSL isn't hmm?). You 'forgot' to mention the CSL also has a youth development initiative (and actually existing reserve and U18 divisions) so why would you brag about a league that doesn't exist wanting to do the same thing (dishonest much)?

It is highly relevant to the discussion of how the D3 level is going to evolve in Canada.

I could use the exact same rational to talk about CSL or the PLSQ 'hey! forget the topic, let's all talk about Ontario some more!'. Talking about L1O in this thread is an intentional waste of time, it immidiately invites a local CSL vs L1O debate ahead of the entire national topic (us FIRST!), were just ignoring everywhere else to argue Ontario soccer politics...again. If were going to assume the whole thing revolves around L1O, shouldn't that kind of assumption require a specific L1O thread? Talking about the CSL as the fulcrum for expansion is relatively useless in this thread (why talk about doing nothing until the CSL came to you?) while L1O still has to become a provincial league but we should learning from their example and approach to development??? This leaves me shocked that I have been accused of Strawman arguements...

He consistently repeats bad points (go back to the old thread if you want the old arguement), sometimes we name threads specifically to negate the need to hear a rehash of last topics' points (doesn't work), so here, he'll go mildly off topic talking to no one in paticular until the actual topic grinds to a halt.

How many pages of opposition has he posted on anything mildly related to a 'national division'? But here he is, in a thread he shouldn't even want to read, 'accidentaly' going off topic, again? On certain key topics (like a national division) you can't string more then a few posts together before he at the least, goes off topic or at worst repeats himself, lies or even dishonestly uses sources.

Agreed lets keep treads separate

Finally, Orletafc, don't encourage me. And to everyone, sorry I went on and on again...

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Can the CSA force the Provincial Associations into forming a league with their own criteria? Instead of the Provinces making their own things?

As things stand D1 and D2 are a CSA level thing (currently outsourced to the USSF in the shape of MLS and NASL) but both the CSA and the provincial associations can sanction D3 level leagues. I think the CSA set the D3 sanctioning standards and have to OK it if a provincial association decides to deviate from the norm but not 100% sure.

One of the things I have always found surprising about the CSL after it moved from being an OSA to a CSA sanctioned league was that the provincial association in Quebec still seemed to be able to exercise a veto over whether new clubs from there could participate. Entry of a team in Quebec City was the ongoing saga on that.

The emergence of the new provincial D3 league in Quebec was probably the end where having a single national D3 structure is concerned in the absence of a radical shakeup of the division in repsonsibilities between the CSA and the provincial associations.

[Juby]

As things stand D1 and D2 are a CSA level thing (currently outsourced to the USSF in the shape of MLS and NASL) but both the CSA and the provincial associations can sanction D3 level leagues. I think the CSA set the D3 sanctioning standards and have to OK it if a provincial association decides to deviate from the norm but not 100% sure.

So long story short, your guessing? The PLSQ is a nationally sanctioned D-3. In this thread D-3 is not a level of play, it's an accredation from the CSA, your just redefining terms to rationalize going off topic. Of course you can talk about L1O if you change the definition of D-3, what's odd about one person unilaterally changing definations after 16 pages of posts (like thanks Shakespeare)...

One of the things I have always found surprising about the CSL after it moved from being an OSA to a CSA sanctioned league was that the provincial association in Quebec still seemed to be able to exercise a veto over whether new clubs from there could participate. Entry of a team in Quebec City was the ongoing saga on that.

Can you source any of this or are you just trying to make a dramatic spin on the creation of the PLSQ (bbtb has a habit of treating his guesses like facts).

The emergence of the new provincial D3 league in Quebec was probably the end where having a single national D3 structure is concerned in the absence of a radical shakeup of the division in repsonsibilities between the CSA and the provincial associations.

Once again, the PLSQ is a National D-3, It could even create a east division with NB because... it's a national D-3. We never had a single national D-3 structure (CSL was always regional), so 'the end' your referring to is what exactly (more dramatics?)? Ontario and Quebec are already at the D-3 level anyway... On top of all that, the idea of doing this solely provincially makes no sense at all because any of the smaller provinces would be handicapped by their population when they could very easily work together through the CSA. You know that L1O will eventually want national d-3 accredation in like a decade so why are you wasting our time with backwards arguements you'll eventually discard?

Why do you insist on being half the conversation on a topic, who's basis you've long ago fundementally opposed. And why is it acceptable for him to 'accidentaly' go off topic in every national division topic that moves past his silly objections?

[kj52]

So long story short, your guessing? The PLSQ is a nationally sanctioned D-3. In this thread D-3 is not a level of play, it's an accredation from the CSA, your just redefining terms to rationalize going off topic. Of course you can talk about L1O if you change the definition of D-3, what's odd about one person unilaterally changing definations after 16 pages of posts (like thanks Shakespeare)...

Can you source any of this or are you just trying to make a dramatic spin on the creation of the PLSQ (bbtb has a habit of treating his guesses like facts).

Once again, the PLSQ is a National D-3, It could even create a east division with NB because... it's a national D-3. We never had a single national D-3 structure (CSL was always regional), so 'the end' your referring to is what exactly (more dramatics?)? Ontario and Quebec are already at the D-3 level anyway... On top of all that, the idea of doing this solely provincially makes no sense at all because any of the smaller provinces would be handicapped by their population when they could very easily work together through the CSA. You know that L1O will eventually want national d-3 accredation in like a decade so why are you wasting our time with backwards arguements you'll eventually discard?

Why do you insist on being half the conversation on a topic, who's basis you've long ago fundementally opposed. And why is it acceptable for him to go off topic/waste time 'accidentaly' in every national division topic that moves past his silly complaints? Why don't I fill every topic based on something I disagree with BS until I get enough of an in to completely off topic repeat old arguements (maybe I should make good on my threat to behave like bbtb one day...)

Actually nothing you've posted on D3 makes any sense until you can find a way to separate fantasy potential owners from their hard earned money - be it provincial or national. Your posts are childish and annoying and I regret temporarily taking you off Ignore, rectified as of now (again).

[Juby]

Actually nothing you've posted on D3 makes any sense until you can find a way to separate fantasy potential owners from their hard earned money - be it provincial or national. Your posts are childish and annoying and I regret temporarily taking you off Ignore, rectified as of now (again).

Sure some of my ideas require investors, every idea here does, this whole thread is about creating leagues where none exist. We are brainstorming custom leagues, using an unproven model designed for Ontario seems premature in national discussions and invariably should require us to more seriously look at the two more proven examples (CSL and PLSQ) which are not at their 'end' as bbtb described but actually 'in place' compared to his example. The L1O vs CSL debate has ZERO bearing on this topic unless the rest of the country does nothing for the next decade. There's a big difference between starting a new league somewhere and waiting too see what happens in Ontario. One is on topic, one postpones the whole topic in favour of smaller, ongoing, off topic debates.

If anyone wants I could tell them all about the CSL's league model and a bit about their CAF development program but apparently the semi pro model is at an end and provincial leagues are national leagues based on a level of play they haven't shown *rolls eyes*.

edit a couple days later: So here we are, If you respond/correct bbtb's posts, you go off topic and if you ignore him, his extra arrogant posts are appallingly misleading. So now that no one wants to talk about the subject he dislikes and because I've taken the 'correcting his BS' route , Mission accomplished troll (I guess it's a coincidence that only topics bbtb has spent pages objecting to over the years get ruined in this subforum?)

[ThiKu]

Richard Whittal has basically confirmed a u23 league is being developed. http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2012/10/17/the-story-so-far-%E2%80%94-october-17th-how-to-save-canadian-soccer/

Mentions details to follow in the coming weeks.

CHL model, which is great. Fascinated to see the standard.

[Redcoatsforever]

Richard Whittal has basically confirmed a u23 league is being developed. http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2012/10/17/the-story-so-far-%E2%80%94-october-17th-how-to-save-canadian-soccer/

Mentions details to follow in the coming weeks.

CHL model, which is great. Fascinated to see the standard.

Hope there's a local squad...this is good news, given yesterdays result/.

[canadianfoot]

Can the CSA "impose" requirements on the provincial bodies, or not really and it goes to a vote where each province has a vote(s)?

[kj52]

Can the CSA "impose" requirements on the provincial bodies, or not really and it goes to a vote where each province has a vote(s)?

The CSA will have to get the provincial associations to buy in. The CSA controls national championships, and of course international play, but nearly everything else requires the provinces to agree. A national U23 league is something probably everyone agrees would be a good thing but the question remains - Who pays?

[Alex D]

A national U23 league is something probably everyone agrees would be a good thing but the question remains - Who pays?

If it is really to follow the CHL model then it would be to the fans to pay for. The question is, will they?

I hope to see a ramped up version of the PDL, with higher standards for player development and professionalism of the presentation.

Maybe we should start a new thread on this so Juby doesn't go mental.

[DigzTFC]

I`ll reserve judgement until it happens or at least there is a structure presented. My initial reaction is that is solution based on financial viability and is trying to replicate Mexico`s approach to player development. The issue with it is it doesn`t raise the quality of competition or player development model but rather organizes what currently exists under one banner and possibly expand the reach of division 3 to cities that aren`t currently participating.

Mexico`s U23 and player development model was successful on two principles. Each Pro team had to have their U23 teams play against each other when the first team played, basically a U23 league mimicking the league schedule and there was an initiative to enforce first team quotas for players under a certain age.

What this does allow is for a second division to grow organically as cities and pro teams to build the infrastructure at their own pace. Teams can start their program in the U23 league until the facilities are ready to jump in to a second division. How the current teams fit into this model will be difficult because the level of play would be too low. They might try putting a U-16 team in there and have their U-18 play somewhere else.

It`s a start but I think this is a 10-15 year journey to have a CHL U23 structure with a viable 2 Division on top of that.

[ThiKu]

Yes an expanded PDL with higher off-field standards plus a lengthier season would be ideal. Say 6 month season? But this will discount NCAA players unless something is sorted there. NCAA won't make any deals so the league would simply have to satisfy whatever requirements NCAA would state.

Obviously a D2 could be formed out of this after an extended period. Clubs like Victoria, Winnipeg etc may attract significant crowds and as such a D2 could grow organically as you see certain teams consistently at a higher off-field standard.

There would have to be online streaming, the odd sportsnet game, some sort of v-Cup attachment, and maybe an all-star team that travels abroad to tounaments in the off-season....maybe referred to as some sort of Canadian national team.

I can't see there being any foreign limits as the interest would be minimal anyway from foreigners. You could have a certain amount of overagers. And I'd suggest each club needs a very clear and concrete youth club(s) connection so they are constantly being fed players each year.

[Juby]

If it is really to follow the CHL model then it would be to the fans to pay for. The question is, will they?

I hope to see a ramped up version of the PDL, with higher standards for player development and professionalism of the presentation.

Maybe we should start a new thread on this so Juby doesn't go mental.

Anyone who's read what I've said knows that nothing that has been said would bother me (it's all about establishing higher than amateur leagues around Canada, it's honest and lacking the usual over the top bias).

However, insulting someone just for ****s and giggles has got to be the stupidest way to avoid their attention (a surefire way to get me talking is to insult me, you think anyone here is in any mood to be shat on lately?).

[Alex D]

Yes an expanded PDL with higher off-field standards plus a lengthier season would be ideal. Say 6 month season? But this will discount NCAA players unless something is sorted there. NCAA won't make any deals so the league would simply have to satisfy whatever requirements NCAA would state.

I'd rather see a U19 league because of this. Since most of the players would be in high school they would be locally based year round making a longer season possible, which means more revenue to run the club. It also means that the clubs would be able to keep and train their own players during the off season.

My gripe with the PDL (one of them at least) is that despite the name of the league, they are not actually doing any development work by trotting out a bunch of 22 year old NCAA players for a 3 month 16 game season. The real work is being done in the US district academy leagues.

We need to build an academy system where the top level (U19) is treated with a similar level of presentation and professionalism as CHL hockey games.

[Macksam]

I'd rather see a U19 league because of this. Since most of the players would be in high school they would be locally based year round making a longer season possible, which means more revenue to run the club. It also means that the clubs would be able to keep and train their own players during the off season.

My gripe with the PDL (one of them at least) is that despite the name of the league, they are not actually doing any development work by trotting out a bunch of 22 year old NCAA players for a 3 month 16 game season. The real work is being done in the US district academy leagues.

We need to build an academy system where the top level (U19) is treated with a similar level of presentation and professionalism as CHL hockey games.

I'm sure a u23 will have its fair share of teens.

[DigzTFC]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/opinion/2012/10/wanted-dynamic-technical-director-for-canadian-soccer.html?cmp=rss

Last year, the CSA commissioned a study to look at the feasibility of such a league and those findings are currently before the CSA board. Today, Montagliani laid this problem out bare.

"Creating this is imperative to ensure what happened on Tuesday doesn't repeat itself. We need to fill in the vacuum under the MLS level with a division two-type league," he said.

Montagliani added he wants that discussion to begin in the next 60 days.

[ted]

...they are not actually doing any development work by trotting out a bunch of 22 year old NCAA players for a 3 month 16 game season.

And while we are on the subject, just what exactly is so great about the NCAA (and CIS) season anyway? It's not like they play much more than that?

IMO it is time to move on from using the collegiate model for pro soccer development. Real clubs in countries that regularly appear in the World Cup do not let players go to college and play for 1/3 to 1/2 of a real season and pretend this is development. They take kids who are High School age and plug them into the club system and start paying them as professionals by the time they are college age.

Why not run a league from April through October? If college kids make the team great, but they have to work around the full-time job that should be football from March 1 to October 31. I am all for kids getting a college education but the old model of having to attend courses from September through April is less and less relevant. Modern flexible college programs could easily fit around the life of a young, full-time footballer.

[Guest ClaytonA]

And while we are on the subject, just what exactly is so great about the NCAA (and CIS) season anyway? It's not like they play much more than that?

IMO it is time to move on from using the collegiate model for pro soccer development. Real clubs in countries that regularly appear in the World Cup do not let players go to college and play for 1/3 to 1/2 of a real season and pretend this is development. They take kids who are High School age and plug them into the club system and start paying them as professionals by the time they are college age.

Why not run a league from April through October? If college kids make the team great, but they have to work around the full-time job that should be football from March 1 to October 31. I am all for kids getting a college education but the old model of having to attend courses from September through April is less and less relevant. Modern flexible college programs could easily fit around the life of a young, full-time footballer.

Exactly and from a wider perspective maybe it facilitates people who aren't interested in a university education except for sports. People may be able to go to trade school and handle apprenticeships while following their soccer dream without the risk and expense of trying in Europe, no?

Also, this league would be much better than the mish-mash we currently have for talent/player identification. In BC this is one of the reasons they set up the BCSPL (however much I disagree with the price tag and requirements that just to be considered for provincial teams etc you have to play BCSPL-too onerous and monopolistic turf fighting continues...). Totally agree all teams should be part of a club system (maybe seperate from recreational soccer) that includes youth teams.