A Workable National D3?

[Juby]

Sorry I'm going on more about BC (especially since I've never been a resident). Maybe with some preexisting teams, do you think the area could be organized into a premier league of sorts with maybe just like $10 000 salary minimums? Also, what would the travel costs be for a Victoria through Okanagan valley league cost? Do you think it might be possible to flesh out a new tier with maybe 12 teams?

Vancouver - Metro 2 135 201 - City 603 502

-Metro -Burnaby - City 223 218

-Coquitlam - City 126 456

-Delta - District Municipality 99 863

-Langley - District Municipality 104 177

-Maple Ridge - District Municipality 76 052

-New Westminster - City 65 976

-North Vancouver - District Municipality 84 412

-Port Coquitlam - City 56 342

-Richmond - City 190 473

-Surrey - City 468 251

Victoria - Metro 316 327 - City - 80 017

-Grt.Vic-Saanich - District Municipality 109 752

Nanaimo - City 83 810

Kamloops - City 85 678

Kelowna - City 117 312

Abbotsford - City 133 497

Chiliwack - City 77 936

Prince George - City 71 974

Sort of mean but Prince George might be the odd man out for travel costs, no?

Campbell River, Langford, Penticton, Vernon, White Rock and Port Moody are all farily close to the action for lower division teams.

If the initial salary was only $10 000, and the travel was limited to southern BC could they bring in a dozen groups? I think the stadia issue is fine in this one example. Maybe 8 teams would be better (or even 9 for my magic 16 home games number). If it could put on a better game then the PDL teams they might be able to woo the whitecaps academy? And as far as weather goes, they could stretch out even a 36 game season over whatever length or period they like.

Basically I want to know if it would be the affordable semi pro league model that could almost maintain a team with either a good profitable youth program, 250ish patron average or maybe strong sponsors. Even for an owner who was willing to lose money to run a team, you'd probably be paying less in the small region semi pro league then the amateur pdl option in travel.

-this is just wikipedia numbers, they should be 2011 though. If this is useful I could organize similar sets for other provinces, and feel free to correct whatever wouldn't be obvious to non BCer on the computer.

[ThiKu]

On the national championship idea. One already exists for the ten provincial cup winners at the amateur level and with occasional exceptions (one held in Newfoundland about ten years ago comes to mind) it never seems to make much of an impact in terms of spectator interest and mainstream media coverage. Moral of the story? I think people sometimes overstate the importance of the national angle. In Australia they don't bother with it at the D3 sort of level and being provincial/state champion seems to be enough for people maybe because it's good to have the big championship game being at a location that fans, who followed the regular season, can easily attend. The format and funding of the tournament would need to be carefully planned. Not worth doing from a promotional standpoint unless some of the games can be televised from coast to coast on a channel like Sportsnet or TSN I would have thought but that can be expensive.

On the U23 focus I think the key is that right now Canadian soccer does a reasonable job of developing players up until the mid-teens but then there is often no obvious route to the pro level and many of the best prospects stop playing the sport competitively when there is no youth team to play for any more and they find they can't easily get a game for the top amateur/semi-pro teams in their city. The academy teams of the MLS and NASL teams will help but the best prospects at 16 are not always the best players by 23 years of age. There needs to be something similar to the NCAA/PDL development route south of the border, which provides a competitive environment and at times close to fully pro style training into the early 20s prior to being drafted in an MLS context or signing with a team at D2 level.

Ya, sorry. The post was nice enough but comparing a national amateur tournament to what is being discussed here doesn't equate. The discussion here is of a nationwide u23 SEMI-PRO league. The teams that enter the national amateur tournament would be described only as D5 in the loosest context (as Juby described them D5, not BBTB). They are amateur. They don't get a "D" rating!

Also BBTB you ignored that the winner of the national tournament would ideally be part of the Amway Cup, and the games would ideally be streamed (league and playoffs).

[ThiKu]

Sorry I'm going on more about BC (especially since I've never been a resident). Maybe with some preexisting teams, do you think the area could be organized into a premier league of sorts with maybe just like $10 000 salary minimums? Also, what would the travel costs be for a Victoria through Okanagan valley league cost? Do you think it might be possible to flesh out a new tier with maybe 12 teams?

Vancouver - Metro 2 135 201 - City 603 502

-Metro -Burnaby - City 223 218

-Coquitlam - City 126 456

-Delta - District Municipality 99 863

-Langley - District Municipality 104 177

-Maple Ridge - District Municipality 76 052

-New Westminster - City 65 976

-North Vancouver - District Municipality 84 412

-Port Coquitlam - City 56 342

-Richmond - City 190 473

-Surrey - City 468 251

Victoria - Metro 316 327 - City - 80 017

-Grt.Vic-Saanich - District Municipality 109 752

Nanaimo - City 83 810

Kamloops - City 85 678

Kelowna - City 117 312

Abbotsford - City 133 497

Chiliwack - City 77 936

Prince George - City 71 974

Sort of mean but Prince George might be the odd man out for travel costs, no?

Campbell River, Langford, Penticton, Vernon, White Rock and Port Moody are all farily close to the action for lower division teams.

If the initial salary was only $10 000, and the travel was limited to southern BC could they bring in a dozen groups? I think the stadia issue is fine in this one example. Maybe 8 teams would be better (or even 9 for my magic 16 home games number). If it could put on a better game then the PDL teams they might be able to woo the whitecaps academy? And as far as weather goes, they could stretch out even a 36 game season over whatever length or period they like.

Basically I want to know if it would be the affordable semi pro league model that could almost maintain a team with either a good profitable youth program, 250ish patron average or maybe strong sponsors. Even for an owner who was willing to lose money to run a team, you'd probably be paying less in the small region semi pro league then the amateur pdl option in travel.

-this is just wikipedia numbers, they should be 2011 though. If this is useful I could organize similar sets for other provinces, and feel free to correct whatever wouldn't be obvious to non BCer on the computer.

The short answer to your question is: NO. That's it.

Any semi-pro league in BC would have to be brand new franchises, with fresh ownership, and serious partnership with the BC Soccer Premier League for youth support. Those 8 franchises feeding directly into the semi-pro system. Right there you'd have the major areas covered. The semi-pro franchise wouldn't necessarily need to be named after the BCSPL team of course.

BCSPL Franchises: Okanagan, Fraser Valley, Surrey Utd, South Surrey, Richmond-Vancouver, Coquitlam, Burnaby-North Vancouver, Vancouver Island.

No other areas of the province could provide sufficient playing level, fan support, and have financial stability to satisfy the demands of a nationwide D3 as is being considered here. . There are a lot of "eager" youth club markets, and people trying to do good things in a variety of markets, but no, not gonna happen in getting them D3 (thinking of places like Prince George, Nanaimo, Chilliwack....).

JUBY: Re: your comment about submitting to ReThink. That's actually what I was getting at with my "to summarize" post on page 9. If someone wants to put together a nice summary of a general consensus then why not...submit that first here and then to ReThink....doesn't have to be a rep of the Voyageurs or anything.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Ya, sorry. The post was nice enough but comparing a national amateur tournament to what is being discussed here doesn't equate. The discussion here is of a nationwide u23 SEMI-PRO league.....

You should take a look at what happened when amateur teams entered the CSL's Open Cup:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Open_Canada_Cup

The reality is that there is no significant gap in playing standards between top amateur and semi-pro teams in Canada, which should not be surprising because the approach to the sport is basically the same in both contexts (there are European countries like Germany and Holland where semi-pro teams have traditionally been referred to as amateur) and the top players in any given city are not suddenly transformed into better players overnight once they start openly receiving a relatively small sum like $100 a game.

Anybody who has followed what has happened with the C[P]SL since its formation in 1998 should also be well aware that the vast majority of the soccer community has little or no interest in attending either amateur or semi-pro soccer on a regular basis nowadays. Given that backdrop the idea that a national semi-pro U23 tournament will automatically become soccer's version of the Memorial Cup seems a tad optimistic to me. It would take a lot of hard work and skillful marketing to make it work.

[ThiKu]

BBTB - Let me get this straight. Your determination that amateur teams across Canada would compete against semi-pro teams adequately is a Canada Open Cup that included only SOME teams from Ontario??? TRY AGAIN, thanks.

We can all find examples of lower level clubs doing well in a cup competition. Millwall made the FA Cup final not too long ago. Are they as good as Arsenal? Luton Town went on a great FA Cup run a while back...Montreal made the CCL quarter-finals....need I go on?

The discussion is a u23 SEMI-PRO nationwide cup. The discussion is not that amateur teams can or can't compete. The discussion is not that elite amateur teams would be of equal or superior skill (keeping in mind elite amateur teams have ex-pro and university MEN on their team, when a u23 would have kids age 18-23!) The discussion is not that "an amateur tournament doesn't draw fans so why would a u23 tournament draw fans" when you are ignoring one of the discussed standards of the u23 is streaming and TV deal(s) of some sort.

Tell me - who called a "semi-pro u23 tournament soccer's version of the Memorial Cup"? I am interested to know who stated it would be that successful. BIG DIFFERENCE b/w saying "organize it like the Memorial Cup" and saying "equivalent in popularity." My word, yer on fire there big guy. Well done though. Entertaining reading this early in the morning when my Fantasy Prem League team is stinking it up.

[Juby]

You should take a look at what happened when amateur teams entered the CSL's Open Cup:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Open_Canada_Cup

The reality is that there is no significant gap in playing standards between top amateur and semi-pro teams in Canada, which should not be surprising because the approach to the sport is basically the same in both contexts (there are European countries like Germany and Holland where semi-pro teams have traditionally been referred to as amateur) and the top players in any given city are not suddenly transformed into better players overnight once they start openly receiving a relatively small sum like $100 a game.

Anybody who has followed what has happened with the C[P]SL since its formation in 1998 should also be well aware that the vast majority of the soccer community has little or no interest in attending either amateur or semi-pro soccer on a regular basis nowadays. Given that backdrop the idea that a national semi-pro U23 tournament will automatically become soccer's version of the Memorial Cup seems a tad optimistic to me. It would take a lot of hard work and skillful marketing to make it work.

You clearly haven't seen a CSL game since before 2006 then, the league has been constantly taking steps forward and expanding since about, ohhhh 2006? 2007? (WHAT A COINCIDENCE THAT THAT'S WHEN YOUR POINT IS?). BTW, I'm sorry but London City was the runner up in that tournament? Sorry redcoats, but if London City was the best of the CSL teams, this clearly wasnt like the A tournament between amateur's and the CSL, not to mention the CSL was not yet D-3, standards were lower etc.. But we don't want to go to deep into the arguement or else BBTB no longer makes any sense.

Ohhh No one says that a part time contract will magically make someone better!?!? It means the CLUB paying the contract will get their pick of the litter and they can afford to train more often(duh). How is skipping the part time component going to get us from amateur to pro quicker? How are we in a position to ignore the distinction between a part time job and working for free?

I mean really, I'm sitting here argueing vague linguistic points that have nothing to do with soccer because someone wants to keep argueing long after they have any reason to open their mouth(maybe when we have as many divisions as Germany we will scoff at part time players too). This is what kills me about these debates, no matter how many stupid things you get through, his ego will never react to the foolish **** he said. Lick your wounds ffs

Ohhh and anyone else notice he had refused to even mention the CSL (even when talking about their ideas) until he could say something negative? And even then, he's pretty much using the CPSL to ****talk our theoretical regional d-3 topic? I've said it before, but if you can't make a good point, don't force a stupid one

We've all seen this before. After pages of being off topic, he's finally ran out of steam on his first waste of time. However he's not going to stop or join the topic, he's going to repeat every single point, no matter how off topic or stupid, he's made for the past few years.

We've explained countless times to BBTB why paying your players is better then not paying your players. Why are we humouring someone who is just talking for the sake of talking?

AM I REALLY GOING TO HAVE TO OPEN A THREAD THAT MAKES FUN OF BBTB IN THE TITLE FOR US TO KEEP HIM FROM TROLLING THESE TOPICS. IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO EXPLAIN OUR POINTS, WE ALSO HAVE TO EXPLAIN **** LIKE WHY IT'S BETTER TO PAY PEOPLE?)

edit: Everyone else seems to be able to get into the same discussion (developing a framework), but at least once a page bbtb purposely goes way off topic to argue against the whole point of the thread? At 18 pages were probably still only going to be able to put a few points together before the troll goes off topic again by being inflammatory or just ignorant (God forbid he sees a little line in mean machine, he'll get even snobbier)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

BBTB - Let me get this straight. Your determination that amateur teams across Canada would compete against semi-pro teams adequately is a Canada Open Cup that included only SOME teams from Ontario??? TRY AGAIN, thanks.

Columbus Clan FC of the VMSL made the final in 2007 after beating a CSL team in the semis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Open_Canada_Cup

eventually losing out to what was effectively the Montreal Impact's B team (also worth noting that top Ontario clubs are usually far from dominant in the amateur National Championships so it is reasonable to suggest that the top amateur clubs in cities like Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Montreal and Halifax could provide a comparable level of performance). After the 2007 season the CSL pulled the plug on the competition, which was a step in the wrong direction in my opinion but somewhat understandable give the CONCACAF entry they had been angling for was subsequently given to the Canadian Championship between TFC and the D2 level teams (with the Voyageurs Cup being awarded to the winners).

I stand by the analogy between the present day amateur National Championship and any future semi-pro event similar in format to the CSL's Open Cup or Playoffs tournaments. Given the latter were often held in London, Ont I have a good idea of what spectator interest was like. Lukewarm at best despite usually getting a good write up in the London Free Press. The semi-pro as opposed to amateur thing doesn't seem to make that much difference to people's perceptions of what is worth paying to watch. You usually need a fully pro team to get a significant portion of the soccer community to take an interest as happened in a London context when Maritimo of Portugal visited. It's no different in other sports from what I can see. Semi-pro baseball, Canadian football and even senior hockey can be a tough sell as well.

The experience with PDL south of the border and in Canada to a certain extent is that a U23 development format can work well in certain mid-sized markets like Des Moines and Victoria while in others (particularly in or close to larger cities where it is less of a story in mainstream media terms) crowds are very much in CSL type territory. It would take a lot of hard work, dedication and skillful marketing to make the sort of league that was recommended by Rethink work well in practice but I think it would be worth a try if the interest is there from enough of the larger youth clubs. You have to start somewhere basically with a format that is sustainable even with a low level of initial spectator interest.

[ThiKu]

So you cite 2006, then when I point out your error or ill-logic instead of raising your hand and acknowledge your error you point out the 2007 competition??

Again, can you share with all of us where anyone indicated elite amateur teams weren't good??

In fact in my post I made the allowance that elite amateurs would have some advantages over the u23 semi-pro teams b/c they'd be adults with likely some former pro experience (ie, Surrey United's current VMSL team) compared to u23 teams with a couple overage players but also some teens on the squad....

Here is the BIG BIG difference you need to acknowledge. The Semi-Pro league we're discussing would include streaming/TV coverage. Instantly that raises awareness/attendance. The competition you are suggesting a semi-pro championship would be comparable to is strictly amateur with ZERO tv/streaming and very little newsprint coverage of any kind....It's basically an apples-oranges comparison you are making. So due to lack of media coverage of course attendance is going to be low at these events you are citing.

Um, maybe a relatively fair comparison would be to discuss how the PDL national finals are attended/covered? That league has limited streams and no TV until the finals BUT....it's not far off what I propose re: the CanD3.

The experience with PDL south of the border and in Canada to a certain extent is that a U23 development format can work well in certain mid-sized markets like Des Moines and Victoria while in others (particularly in or close to larger cities where it is less of a story in mainstream media terms) crowds are very much in CSL type territory. It would take a lot of hard work, dedication and skillful marketing to make the sort of league that was recommended by Rethink work well in practice but I think it would be worth a try if the interest is there from enough of the larger youth clubs. You have to start somewhere basically with a format that is sustainable even with a low level of initial spectator interest.

On this you and I agree completely. With one addendum. I propose, and I'll keep repeating!, that a CanD3 is only going to succeed with online streaming/TV coverage. PDL doesn't have that - or if they do it is extremely limited. That will raise awareness, viewership etc. Additionally allowing the carrot of Amway Cup as a final result for the elite of the u23 Can D3 would also raise awareness and seriousness. PDL teams are allowed into the US OC though right?

[Juby]

AHAHAHAHAHA, I just realized what he's talking about; THE OLD CANADA CUP WAS A PRE SEASON FRIENDLY TOURNAMENT!!! You know what 'pre season' and 'friendly' means right? And by 'eventually losing to Montreal's B team, he means the former CSL squad the Trois Riviere Attak, btw, THREE of the FOUR semi finalists were CSL teams that year. Seriously, look how pathetically he tried to avoid mentioning that a 'CSL team' won the tournament. People wonder why I'm pissed? Because I'm not debating, I'm correcting lies, it's insulting for someone to try and decieve you like your a child. I am sick of being spoken too arrogantly to hide the reason why nothing should have been typed in the first place. He is the only person here who will put up a fake point hoping that no one checks it.

Ohhh and your national championship comparison is just flat out stupid, your comparing an amateur cup, that doesn't even invite the best amateur teams, to a potential cup designed for the teams above that level. Think about your point: 'semi pro won't work, why? cause amateur won't, therefore only pro will'????? Maybe when you stretch that out over a paragraph it doesn't seem as stupid, but it's pure nonsense.

Then he talks about how we need to start basically??? WE ALREADY HAVE THE PDL AND AMATEUR TEAMS, your going to have to take a step forward on this one ffs. BTW, when you say CSL crowds, do you even know what your talking about???? We all know GTA teams don't do so great (it doesn't really matter) but many of the non GTA teams do pretty well in attendance. And if you look at last year's PDL attendance in Ontario there are some interesting facts, Toronto and Ottawa (two teams that were competing with the CSL) had low attendance (<250), Thunder Bay did better (like 600) with no competition, and Hamilton (no CSL competition last year) and FC London (London city *sigh*) didn't release their figures. But if he thinks this is still 2006, then I can understand why he still thinks so poorly of the CSL and so highly of the PDL, but now in 2012: the CSL is a strong semi pro league, and the PDL is stalling (lowering attendance, still amateur play). (hell, from the stride the CSL took between 2009 and 2010 alone, was so big it was obvious in my little soccer videos)

BTW, you said in 2007, 'the CSL' pulled the plug on the project? Now personally I don't know the answer, but I do know this was a tournament organized by Bruno Ierullo, so I'm left with the feeling something is amiss in your explanation. I'd email Bruno and ask, but when bbtb get's caught red handed, he doesn't get embarressed, he thinks of something stupid to say to waste our time. Which is why we are actually hearing someone argue about the merit's of paying players, 12 pages into the 12th d-3 thread. Really, getting a little pay is the basics of d-3, those fundamental arguement are off topic at this point, we are way beyond debating the merits of d-3 in general. Seriously, why don't I fill Montreal threads argueing that they should have never left NASL, I could vaguely relate it to almost any topic, it would just be stupid, like argueing against paying people (why is he recommending players train less, for less, to play less, against less, in their competitions, it just makes no sense unless you understand he hates the CSL because of a few petty board arguements and love's the PDL for the same reason, that is the only way you can make sense of his point, to know it's based on nonsense).

[canadianfoot]

My Quick two cents D3 divided into Conferences I would say with travel up to 1500km each way(not a random number I kinda googled the distances between random cities). For Example

- BC/AB(Alberta might be kinda split between praries too)

- AB/SK/MB and Thunder Bay into one

- Ontario(CSL)

- Quebec(the new Quebec Soccer League)

- Atlantic(not sure of the Atlantic Situation if there will be enough for 1 or say 3-6teams)

We cannot get stuck on a balanced schedule or even teams in conferences otherwise we might never get off the ground. As for the Stadia it has to be something around 1200-1500 Grandstand(with Changing Rooms, Concessions, Washrooms, the whole deal). Conferences could have some slack in their affairs BUT the Minimum Standards should be NATION WIDE.

Stadiums if NOT controlled by the team should be on some sort of Long Term Lease(with good sharing profit on the concessions) that will permit expansion as well in the future(Extra Bleachers for additional 1500 seats, etc).

Team Store(could be a trailer like the Whitecaps had at Swangard), and a Media Corner nothing fancy but with basics. A place where players after the games could be interviewed, Coaches Q&A, etc. Wi-Fi for the Media is a MUST, in the age where any coffee shop has WiFi that is not an Excuse anymore.

Align yourself with Sponsors in Each Conference as suggested before: Hotel, Air Travel, etc. And have votunteers, ball boys from the different youth academies.

The WEB will be an Important tool of communications, without it all hope will be lost(and sponsors/owners). Hire Inters and Volunteers supervised of course by some web masters to do game reports, Tweets, FB and whatever else. I would even as to suggest that the Team Websites should be alligned. For Example:

www.insert_league_name_here_.com/Victoria City,Richmond Islanders,Kelowna WineMakers,etc.

The website will HAVE to be Up to Date. Game Reports, Results all that in a proper manner. WEB STREAMS and maybe some local TV deals like Cogeco/Rogers TV have with the CSL.

Coaches will have to have a Minimum License Requirement, same with Overage Players/and Imports(including US Players) the number should be anywhere in between 3-5 per team Total Overage and/or Imports. Team owner should be explained straight up no lying that this is a Long Run investment(If it even is in the monetary way of speaking) I would hate to see a team dissapear after 2yrs because the owner thought he could make $ on it's second year of operations.

There HAS to be a carrot at the end of the stick as in a spot to join the V-Cup or at least the preliminary rounds(say 1st round vs. NASL side to be covered by the team itself, if they go thru then maybe CSA pays the bill or something like that).

Team Budget Min/Max...that will be a tough one to determine as I personally have no hard numbers to look at. Anyone out there knows the budget of say Victoria Highlanders and Thunder Bay Chill? I would like to see their Travel expenditures. We need not to forget about insurances, not sure if there is something out there as a Bulk Medical Package for a sports league or something. Salaries....that remains to be determined.

Marketing each team will need to dedicate X$ in the community in order to attract attention.

Back to the Stadiums lets not forget, security, paramedics all that costs money too. But team budgets(all the operating costs) will have to be somewhere in between 600-750k per season, with a tight grip on it.

Players pay 24players @ 1500$/12months = 432k(18players @ 1500/8months=216k)

FO Staff 5 at 36k per year 180k

Coaches? 100k

Travel.......

Facilities.......

Insurance......1000 per month/12k per year

Marketing 25k(put in random number not even sure what 25k can achieve in marketing)

While a 1500 stadium @ 10 per ticket will Bring 15k for Gate Revenue and say 8$ per person for Concessions(some will buy more others less so better look at the lower #)12k (of which you get 1/3 if you don't control the stadium) so 4k in Concessions.

19 000$ Per Game your revenue (4 conferences with 8 team each say so 14home games) 266 000$ per year IF you HIT 1500 people at 10$ and 8$ avg in spending @ 1/3 of the concessions.

That means you need to find another 2/3 of you budget somewhere.....keeping in mind that the 1500people per game is a Must in order to be within your budget range. FCE payroll is around 1million, travel 400k so other expenses will make it 2millions per season to run a D2. So a D3 has to be around 750k-850k

[ThiKu]

These are all things I've suggested too. Almost to the letter. So I am glad I ain't "crazy" alone in this.

One thing I would add is some sort of tarping with league or team crests, maybe (ideally!) sponsor crests attached to fences that surround the pitch so the only way the match can be viewed is in-person or on the online stream/tv. The Whitecaps did this when they were at Swangard. I know those tarps aren't cheap, nor are fences necessarily but putting a fence up to protect the investment would aid the team as well as the owner (likely the municipality)

[canadianfoot]

Yes forgot about the tarps same as Whitecaps had at Swangard. You ain't crazy but we need to find someone or say 16guys crazy enough to sink in 10millions Each for say 10years without any possible return maybe. And hope that some of those teams actually pickup and go to a D2 level maybe. Well I have said it before if it win 50millions jackpot alone I'll be investing into footy.

[ThiKu]

The Issue definitely = $$$$$

[canadianfoot]

The Issue definitely = $$$$$

And the willingness of City Officials to co-operate with any future owner on Stadium issues. As we all know Kerfoot ran into RED tape even thou the Whitecaps were an organization known to BC'ers for a long time. While a "new" league might not get same treatment.

[ThiKu]

A nationwide D3 wouldn't have anything like the issues Kerfoot faced. Nonsensical comparison.

[canadianfoot]

A nationwide D3 wouldn't have anything like the issues Kerfoot faced. Nonsensical comparison.

True easier to build a 2000 seater stadium than a 20 000 one still there is always some city official that likes to shine in the media

[ThiKu]

Fair enough. In the end any city able to play in a nationwide D3 will have a park, likely with high fencing already that really will just need some seating installed. 2000 is a bit high for a D3 as a minimum. For D3 it'd be regional so the minimum prob 500.....? But ideally NO TRACK is a league rule as well.

[ted]

... NO TRACK is a league rule as well.

I'd be pleased to see that made a requirement.

[canadianfoot]

Fair enough. In the end any city able to play in a nationwide D3 will have a park, likely with high fencing already that really will just need some seating installed. 2000 is a bit high for a D3 as a minimum. For D3 it'd be regional so the minimum prob 500.....? But ideally NO TRACK is a league rule as well.

Hmm 500 too low 1000 would have to be minimum otherwise we need to review the ambitious plans for D3

[Macksam]

Anybody who has followed what has happened with the C[P]SL since its formation in 1998 should also be well aware that the vast majority of the soccer community has little or no interest in attending either amateur or semi-pro soccer on a regular basis nowadays. Given that backdrop the idea that a national semi-pro U23 tournament will automatically become soccer's version of the Memorial Cup seems a tad optimistic to me. It would take a lot of hard work and skillful marketing to make it work.

Hmmm, a skillful marketing angle. One of the reasons people attend CHL games is because they'll be watching future NHL stars. I'll let you connect the dots.

[ThiKu]

Hmm 500 too low 1000 would have to be minimum otherwise we need to review the ambitious plans for D3

Why do you say this?

What do you believe a Nationwide D3 would look like?

My best guess is it WON'T be anything like USL Pro or NASL.

A Canada D3 would be more like CSL. Semi-pro, shorter season (maybe 6 months?). There'd be some online streaming and if they have connection with the Canadian Championship maybe some TV coverage. It'd be regional. So BC would have it's own, prob Alber-Sask would have its own, Ontario it's own and maybe Quebec-Maritimes or just QC on its own.

Having a minimum 1000 is great, but not realistic to be sold out. 500 would be much more realistic and if a team consistently sells those then they can plan to move or expand what they have.

But anyway, maybe you envision a nationwide D3 being much more comprehensive?

[canadianfoot]

At the Moment the WEST needs something. If someone could jumpstart a league in the Canadian West then things would get a lot more rosy for the praries. As mentioned earlier if we would like to have something on a smaller scale then also the budgets will need to be drastically readjusted. I would see in the WEST something as follow:

Canadian West:

Victoria(Highlanders)

Nanaimo

Kamloops

Kelowna

Prince George

Calgary

Edmonton(FCE reserves/academy)

Vancouver(Whitecaps reserves/academy)

Surrey

Richmond

If we go assuming and take Victoria Highlanders numbers of STH of say 500STH @ 8$ per game with 2rounds of home/away that's 18home games(5months season)giving us 72 000 in Direct Tickets Revenue. Say another potential 100 tickets per game @ 10$ will be WalkUps that Adds 18 000$ in Extra Ticket Revenue for a TOTAL of 90 000$

A small venue of 500 seats in Grand Stand and some bleachers for 200 will rent probably around 500$/HR in Prime Time of course there will be fluctuations etc. So let assume you need the field for 3hrs total so 1500$ will be your cost Per Game just in Facility Rental. So basically the Extra money you made with those 100 walkup will be going for rent(you would need 150 walkups at 10$ at EVERY GAME on Top of the Regular STH to cover the renal of facilities).

Gate Revenue 72 000$ Season Ticket Holders(500), plus 100 Walkups 18 000$

Facilities -27 000$

Concessions on a small field like this will pretty much be non existant. Forget about any revenue from liquor(which is a BiG Money Maker) as more than likely there won't be a license for a facility like this. And usually someone running the Concessions Stand will hand over 1/3 of the Profit(NOT Revenue!!!). Best thing would be to have some small Trailer selling Assorted Drinks and maybe Ice Cream, while another one sells Hot Dogs and Fries, and have 1guy running in between the rows selling drinks. You would need 4 P/T volunteers(if possible) doing that. Maybe another person selling 50/50 tickets and when not busy helping out the guys with concessions.

The whole FO will be a skeleton crew of P/T volunteers mixed with maybe 2-3workers(pretty much paid minimal wage). And you might have to run the team from some really small office or from the Stadium in Question if there is Actually any room to have working quarters there.

The only way I see this in succeding is to have the team in question be providing Soccer camps, clinics whatever you can only figure out. That will probabaly bring in 100 000$ in any of those locations mentioned above. And that 100 000$ will cover your 2 FO staff and maybe a small office(can't even find one at 1500$/month in Richmond......) at 1500$ Per Month incl. Utilities. And will provide you with an Army of Volunteers. To be treated with uttermost respect as more than likely those kids mom/dad will be running 50/50 ticket sales or helping out at the concession stand.

You are left roughly with 63 000$ from ticket sales. Insurances of various kind, Setting up and Running a website for your Club and LEAGUE(that's right you will have to pitch in to keep the League's Website up to date, etc), different kind of prizes for spectators as giveaway, equipment(maybe you can find someone to pay for it) and travel.

You can probably charter a bus for All the league but that Victoria-Edmonton is within 1500km but might be a killer. The overnight stays will probably be done in Edmonton/Calgary and Nanimo/Victoria for team from Lower Mainland/BC Interior unless they can catch a ferry. But travel will eat a big chunk of your money I would say your 63 000 will dwindle to probably 10-15 000 after all the small extras. And what ever is actually left you might hold as contingency or your RENT might eat it.

Now comes the players. SALARIES on their side if a tough thing: Who gets paid and what? a roster of what 22guys at 1500$ for 5 months equates to 165 000$.........quite stiff and that does not mean they won't need 9-5 jobs obviously......

One answer would be to have some players(not all of course) get paid to provide soccer camps/clinics and maybe be part of your staff in the Off Season. Say you can dwindle the number ot paid players to 11 @ 1500$ x 5months that's 82 500$ the other 11 might get paid on a Per Game basis. Those players you cannot expect full commitment from them thou. I would only get the young lads say U19 to get paid on a Per Game basis. 100$ if you make the roster and another 100$ if you make it onto the field or something like that. All players that are say U23 (and any overage players say 3-5) will get paid normally 1500$ or they might be part of your staff. And do not forget coaches........they get paid too.

But no matter which way you cut it, you will need to have another 150-200 000$ from sponsors/owners. Your bread and butter will be not the Club but rather the soccer clinics/camps.

I read/heard somewhere(

) that Victoria Highlanders Women's team got 25 000$ from Co-Op to be on their shirts(and in name) one might expect something similar maybe slightly higher from a potential sponsor. You might get money for the name of the Venue but if you are Renting Tough Luck the City will get the dough. Advertising around the stadium might bring in another 10 000$ per Season at BEST. The League might get Some money for Naming Rights too.....

Basically each team would need 3 owners with 500 000$ Each to jump start each team/academy and that would be for it's very own humble existence. Not sure how much you would have to fork out for TV(webstreams)/Radio Broadcasts in order to increase exposure.

Key would be 8teams(including Victoria Highlanders, Whitecaps/Edmonton they could field maybe a few regulars and maybe pay some sort of finders fee. Since they will play in that league and the smaller clubs will be pretty much feeding players into their system then maybe one could sit down with both teams and they could throw in some money for the TV(webstreams)/Radio broadcasts at say 60/40 000...they might say screw you but who knows.

Anyway that it the way I see it, anyone can tell the 8team in BC/AB that could field D3 teams? and where they would play? If their facilities have concessions, etc.

Victoria @ RAP

Nanaimo @

Kamloops @

Kelowna @

Prince George @

Calgary @

Edmonton @

Vancouver @

Surrey @

Richmond @ Minoru Park

At the end there still has to be a stick with a Carrot of some sort. Maybe the CSA can fork out some money and have a series between say West League Champion, Playoff Champ vs. CSL League Champ, CSL Play-off Champ. That will open up a berth to play say vs. a NASL team or something into the V-Cup.

Don't expect to make money until you hit probably 1500+ Per Game which I would say in some cities will be in year 4 or 5.....

PS: didn't mention the tarps on the fences as hopefully that will be full of Sponsors advertisments

hmmm just found out about this but good for the Victoria Highlanders:

watch first 90seconds

[ted]

ThiKu/Bettermirror made some good points except:

Having a minimum 1000 is great, but not realistic to be sold out. 500 would be much more realistic and if a team consistently sells those then they can plan to move or expand what they have.

This is absurd. Victoria plays in a D4 league and we manage to average something like 1000 per game or close to it. Any club that could not attract an average of 1000 per game has no place in a national D3 league.

I do not see why people keep being so ****ing pessimistic about a D3 league. Competent marketing of national league and the individual clubs should easily produce those kinds of numbers within the first three years. Totally my opinion of course but I do believe that the market is ready for this. YMMV but l see no reason not to aim for 1000 per game @ an average of $10 per head over a minimum of 10 home games.

[ThiKu]

^b/c a National D3 in Canada would be most likely a PDL level and Victoria is an exception, not a rule. A national D3 would be regionalized, as opposed to "nationwide" although it would be a ntionwide link/cooperation of conferences, similar to PDL.

Expecting higher than 1000/game in Canada would be more like a nationwide D2 in which there was maybe 2 conferences, and probably only 10 or so teams. A D3 could have 10 or so teams per conference and roughly 1.5 provinces per conference (ie, BC might be on it's own, Ontario on it's own, but prairies would group together). ....

I think what Victoria has done is wonderful and I so wish that USL Pro could get some teams in the Northwest, and more on the west coast, and maybe one in Calgary so Victoria could step-up a level. Their fan support certainly proves they could manage. I imagine the sponsorship money would come right along with it (Safeway, etc etc)

[Alex D]

Expecting higher than 1000/game in Canada would be more like a nationwide D2 in which there was maybe 2 conferences, and probably only 10 or so teams. A D3 could have 10 or so teams per conference and roughly 1.5 provinces per conference (ie, BC might be on it's own, Ontario on it's own, but prairies would group together). ....

Based upon what exactly?