A Workable National D3?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The thread title is actually, "A workable national D3?". A question like that invites a negative as well as a positive response.

[Juby]

The thread title is actually, "A workable national D3?". A question like that invites a negative as well as a positive response.

Except your off topic, no one's talking about american or canadian d2, no one is talking about american d3, who uses a podcast as a source?(kids? maybe...) And telling people to google YOUR points is about the most juvenile reference work I've ever seen (picture a bibliography that just says 'prove me wrong'). You are trying to talk about 'INTERNATIONAL USSF D-3?', which isn't the negative, it's a different subject. For your points to make any sense as negatives the thread would have to be called 'a non-working national d3?'.

You could make a USL PRO thread if you wanted, You don't have to be off topic.

But seriously, could stop trying to convince people you weren't off topic, it's just as off topic as, well, your points. Would it be funny if I manually remade the thread, sans the crap? If I'm the first poster, bbtb has to pretend he's not reading.

ON TOPIC: Now I'm curious, Outside of a couple leagues here, what are some of the strongest teams in the better amateur leagues, like PCSL and AMSL?

[ted]

This is getting silly now.

Yes you are.

You have provided nothing to address the questions regarding Mr Easton and his qualifications in this matter and your entire argument seems to now consist of "listen to the podcast". I don't bloody have time right now thanks very much.

So post it in the thread about the ReThink Study; this is the "Workable National D3" thread.

And we have a WINNER! Thank you!

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You have provided nothing to address the questions regarding Mr Easton and his qualifications in this matter and your entire argument seems to now consist of "listen to the podcast".

So in other words you couldn't even follow the hyperlink I provided, which provides the answer to your question?

http://www.sirc.ca/news_view.cfm?id=42545

[Redcoatsforever]

So in other words you couldn't even follow the hyperlink I provided, which provides the answer to your question?

http://www.sirc.ca/news_view.cfm?id=42545

I clicked it, all it says is that he works at ReThink, and appears to indicate that he signed off on the article posted. That's not real data about anyone, people are wondering what qualifies him for this; what is his soccer-specific experience, what are his marketing credentials, and why should we put one ounce of belief in his assertions?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

This has got to be a windup? He is a well known former Vancouver 86ers player and played for the national team. It was quite widely publicized at least in soccer media terms that he had been commissioned by the CSA to do a study into the future of pro soccer in Canada. The original post in this thread specifically mentions his Rethink study. Is it really unreasonable to expect that somebody who does that should be aware of the name of the person who carried out the study when he used to play for the team this board is supposed to be all about i.e. the CMNT? Anyway over and out for a few days. Hopefully people will take the time to follow the links I have provided and will digest the information contained so they can have an informed opinion on what is happening right now.

[Juby]

LMAO, this is so funny, okay. One, that's link he just put up is ..... from Oct 6th.

Even funnier, I just listened to that podcast, where Mr Whittall said quickly an immidiate repeat of the old CSL (a coast to coast travel D2) was not seen as likely, he however quickly goes into how there was a lot of support for a more regional, custom made d-3! (you know the topic).

I honestly recommend you do listen to the podcast ahahaha, bbtb too. He talks about how their hoping to going foreward with a stage 2 looking at something like the rethink option 3 (kinda our topic). He concludes by saying something like a the regional domestic d-3 has a lot of wide spread support across the nation with only a few exceptions. He did reiterate that the D-2 is sadly not going to get recommended but bbtb has been yelling and screaming about non issues on a source that doesn't even help his point (unless he came here just to tell us who Jim Easton is ( btw, I got an email from a James Easton the other day ahahahahaha)).

edit: these quotes honestly went from aggrevating to hilarious when I listened to the link and realized how badly bbtb has embarressed himself.

Jim Easton's role was to sound out the views of the people who would need to be interested to see if the type of D2 (in Canadian terms, D3 in USSF terms) national league that is being described by Ted was viable. If you listen to the podcast I have provided a url for you will find that the feedback that was received on that was almost universally negative. That is a highly relevant piece of information for a thread like this.

Hopefully people will take the time to follow the links I have provided and will digest the information contained so they can have an informed opinion on what is happening right now.

Listen to the podcast clip I provided and you will find the answer. If that is beyond you Mr Google is your friend

who knew all I had to tell my teacher when she asked for references was to 'look it up herself'

[Alex D]

I know Blizzard has me on Ignore but I can't help myself.

In the podcast he keeps talking about, the recommendation to the CSA is a REGIONAL U23 THIRD DIVISION. That's exactly what most people here are discussing, so what the hell is his point?

Furthermore, this is a hypothetical discussion on what us fans would like to see. We are taking the most likely of the 4 proposed plans from the Rethink study and expanding on the vague concept presented. Since there currently is nothing set in stone we are free to speculate, I don't understand your problem with that.

I hope somebody will quote this so he can give it a read.

[ted]

So in other words you couldn't even follow the hyperlink I provided, which provides the answer to your question?

http://www.sirc.ca/news_view.cfm?id=42545

Actually no. By the time you provided that particular link I was barely able to read what you have been writing through a haze of "OMG WTF are you talking about?!!?!"

Oh, but wait, having now gone and looked at it, all it ****ing says is that he was part of the Rethink study. No meaningful outline of his qualifications and experience in soccer management, business management or academic accomplishments in a related field.

This has got to be a windup? He is a well known former Vancouver 86ers player and played for the national team.

Yes you are clearly taking the piss. I could not name the starting eleven from the last Whitecaps game I watched let alone remember the contributions of someone on the 86ers roster from the previous century.

Is it really unreasonable to expect that somebody who does that should be aware of the name of the person who carried out the study when he used to play for the team this board is supposed to be all about i.e. the CMNT?

Yes, it is clearly unreasonable. I could not name the starting eleven from the last CMNT match let alone some second-tier player who played a few games years ago.

Sorry I do not have an obsessive-compulsive mania for names and dates to the point where I can recall the names of every CMNT player for the last two decades. I guess I have no place on this board.

Anyway over and out for a few days. Hopefully people will take the time to follow the links I have provided and will digest the information contained so they can have an informed opinion on what is happening right now.

Have a nice break (well, we will), but thanks to your offensive and abusive style the chance of anyone following up on your links is pretty much nil.

[Juby]

Anyway over and out for a few days.

Ohhh my god, you wait for this for so long, I'm a little Veklempt, I'm sorry, tawk amoungst yourselves,

I'll give you a topic, who are some of the top amateur teams or leagues we leave out in these discussion, I have almost no idea about anything AMSL related, discuss:

[ThiKu]

ON TOPIC: Now I'm curious, Outside of a couple leagues here, what are some of the strongest teams in the better amateur leagues, like PCSL and AMSL?

I am not the most reliable source here. CSL (for sure), and I assume the L1O and QC semi-pro league will both be above PCSL and AMSL. PCSL is a good league, for sure. But it is amateur, strictly speaking. Some coaches might get paid but as far as I know not the players. PCSL isn't even as good as the Vancouver Metro Soccer League, which is definitely amateur - but has the fortune of some ex 86er's/Whitecaps (similar to the new QC league with ex-Impact. Current example of where PCSL is - Vancouver Thunderbirds lost to PoCo FC in the provincial cup. PoCo won the Fraser Valley Soccer League which is definitely a step-below the VMSL. Now there are mitigating circumstances such as Thunderbirds not "in-season form", as well as PoCo being an exceptional FVSL team that is moving to VMSL next year. However, overall PCSL teams won't be as good as VMSL ones. If any league was going to go semi-pro in BC it would have to be the VMSL or some variation of it to include the Island and one or two Fraser Valley cities.

Basically, any semi-pro league in BC would have to be a fresh-start league. Although it would include a lot of the PDL/FVSL/VMSL/VISL/PCSL guys (PCSL guys play in the FVSL/VMSL for the most part, are guys returned home from university, or are PCSL teams from the Okanagan).

[Trillium]

USL Pro is basically a D2 league that is operating at D3 level in order to avoid the USSF's stringent D2 sanctioning standards. What is usually meant by D3 in discussions like this is something significantly more regional in scope with budgets in the $150k sort of range. Jim Easton and co came to the conclusion that a Canada only D2 scale league wasn't viable at the present time and recommended a D3 level league with a strong U23 focus.

Jim Easton

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jim Easton (born 3 September 1940)[1] is a Scottish former professional association footballer and manager. He played for Hibernian and Dundee and was player/manager of Queen of the South. He also played for the Miami Toros in the NASL and also managed the Vancouver Whitecaps for their first two seasons.

Contents [hide]

1 Hibernian

2 Dundee

3 Queen of the South

3.1 Vancouver Whitecaps and Miami Toros

4 Personal Life

5 References

[edit]Hibernian

Easton was with Drumchapel Amateurs before joining the senior ranks with Hibernian.[1] While at Hibernian, he gained Scotland under 23 caps. He was with Hibernian from 1960 to 1964, making 79 league appearances in which he scored one goal. He also played Scottish cup and league cup games and also played in European cup games highlighted by beating Barcelona 3-2 at Easter road.[1][2]

[edit]Dundee

Easton joined Dundee and was there until 1971. During his time with Dundee, he made 168 league appearances in which he again scored once. He also played 11 Scottish cup games and 22 league cup games. He also played a number of European cup games scoring the winning goal against Zurich in 1967. [3]

[edit]Queen of the South

Easton was appointed Queen of the South player / manager in May 1971. He made 57 league appearances for the Dumfries club in which he scored twice.[4] He left Palmerston Park in March of his second season after which he moved to Canada.

[edit]Vancouver Whitecaps and Miami Toros

Jim Easton played for the Miami Toros in 1973 in the original NASL. Then he moved on to expansion team Vancouver Whitecaps as manager from 1974 to 1975 in the now defunct NASL leagues and saw good success during his tenure with a small budget and local players.

[edit]Personal Life

Jim is married to Rae Easton (nee Coffey) to which they have three children; Jim Easton Jr., Stewart Easton and Alan Easton. He currently resides in North Vancouver BC Canada.

So BBTB is Jim Easton Junior the James Easton your talking about who works out of San Francisco ?

That is the son of Jim Easton Senior ? Former Whitecaps coach ?

Or is it a different Vancouver born Jim Easton ?

[Redcoatsforever]

Okay, apparently we have a few days of peace. That in mind, I'll pose the next question about regional D3s in a national framework:

How do the regions break down to ensure that each division has an interesting enough set of teams that fans will turn out, and travel costs are low enough that 2000-3000 fans will actually keep the whole thing afloat?

My (NON-expert) opinion:

BC-division, Prairie division (Alberta to Manitoba), Ontario division, Québéc division, and Atlantic division.

For the atlantic, it may need to be Martitime division and a NFLD division, based on ferry costs, but I can't really speak to the logistics of that.

[ThiKu]

A BC division would be great but I am far from convinced there is the sponsorship dollars available. I think a well-run league would easily attract 500+ fans for each home game but I do wonder. However a BC league could look something like;

Victoria, Vancouver (not MLS-related necessarily), Burnaby/Coquitlam (ideally both, but I imagine it'd be one or the other), Richmond-White Rock, Surrey Team West & Surrey Team East (in a city of 400,000+ and growing 1000/month), Fraser Valley (no clue if an FV team would work), Okanagan = 8 teams......sufficient numbers. Where would the players come from? What would happen to the local amateur elite men's leagues (presuming a Canada D3 would be a spring-fall league - PCSL, PDL in BC), etc etc....

[Redcoatsforever]

A BC division would be great but I am far from convinced there is the sponsorship dollars available. I think a well-run league would easily attract 500+ fans for each home game but I do wonder. However a BC league could look something like;

Victoria, Vancouver (not MLS-related necessarily), Burnaby/Coquitlam (ideally both, but I imagine it'd be one or the other), Richmond-White Rock, Surrey Team West & Surrey Team East (in a city of 400,000+ and growing 1000/month), Fraser Valley (no clue if an FV team would work), Okanagan = 8 teams......sufficient numbers. Where would the players come from? What would happen to the local amateur elite men's leagues (presuming a Canada D3 would be a spring-fall league - PCSL, PDL in BC), etc etc....

My thinking is that a Canadian D3 would render the PCSL and PDL dinosaurs, and the youth U-18 and amateur men's leagues would act as feeder clubs for the D3 teams. As far as any shortfall where the player pool is concerned, you could always bring in Carribean and Central American players, who are in many cases willing to play for under $50,000/year plus accommodations.

[ted]

Okay, apparently we have a few days of peace. That in mind, I'll pose the next question about regional D3s in a national framework:

Thank you!

How do the regions break down to ensure that each division has an interesting enough set of teams that fans will turn out, and travel costs are low enough that 2000-3000 fans will actually keep the whole thing afloat?

[snip]

BC-division, Prairie division (Alberta to Manitoba), Ontario division, Québéc division, and Atlantic division.

Not sure I agree we need that many "regions". The quality of play and business model that would allow a team to average 2-3,000 per games would require budgets in excess of $300,000 per year. And yes, that could include some national travel but I think we have shown that travel costs do not have to be the bogeyman they were once considered.

But back to the five regions: If each of your regions had only four teams that would mean 20 teams and would require quite a few inter-region games. If you wanted to keep to almost all regional match ups you would need 8 teams per region for 40 teams in total!

BC can support MAYBE three teams at that level (Victoria, Okanagan, Lower Mainland). I doubt Atlantic Canada could field more than one team (Halifax).

Time to remind ourselves of the numbers:

Top Twenty Metropolitan Areas in Canada 2011

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_largest_metropolitan_areas_in_Canada

Toronto, 5,583,064

Montreal, 3,824,221

Vancouver, 2,313,328

Ottawa, 1,236,324

Calgary, 1,214,839

Edmonton, 1,159,869

Quebec, 765,706

Winnipeg, 730,018

Hamilton, 721,053

Kitchener, 477,160

London, 474,786

St. Catharines, 392,184

Halifax, 390,328

Oshawa, 356,177

Victoria 344,615

Windsor , 319,246

Saskatoon, 260,600

Regina, 210,556

Sherbrooke, 201,890

St. John's, 196,966

This list represents the starting place for any discussion of D3 teams. Please notice the 20th community on the list does not have a population over 200,000. I think trying to place a team in a community under 200,000 when you are trying to average between 2,000 and 3,000 per games is a huge risk.

So, do you really think it is possible to create 20 teams? 40?

Why not try for 12 - 16 teams in two conferences, East and West?

West

Vancouver

Calgary

Winnipeg

Victoria

Saskatoon

Regina

East

Toronto

Montreal

Ottawa

Quebec

Hamilton

Kitchener

London

I have left off Edmonton because I am not convinced a D3 and a D2 club are compatible. Likewise Ottawa might be an issue when they get their NASL team. The big three on the other hand can probably support a D3 alongside a D1 club. Eventually there could be teams in Ottawa and Gatineau or maybe a D2 and a D3 in Edmonton. But let's not fight that battle yet.

Play mostly within conferences but add the V-Cup and league championship. Run with a budget something between $500,000 and $750,000 per team and put out a professional product that will actual attract spectators and sponsors. We have seen the limits of the smaller budgets and amateur teams for long enough with the PCSL, CSL and PDL. We cannot get bums in seats and dollars from sponsors if we put out nothing more than what we have now.

A national network of amateur teams that we call D3 would, I suppose, be better than what we have now: independent regional leagues playing at effectively a D3/D4 level. But transforming the CSL into a region of a new national "league" is not going to be enough to get 2,000 - 3,000 fans into the stadiums week after week. Amateur players playing to crowds under 1,000 per game does not bring sponsorship money sufficient to pay players to train. If players are not paid to train like professionals they will not play like professionals and thus be of little or no use to the national team program and also will not interest bigger clubs looking to recruit talent. If a mostly amateur D3 cannot sell players to bigger clubs they have less money available to invest in player scouting and development.

All these things are connected and all fall to pieces if we simply adopt an amateurish 5-region approach. If players are not being paid to train and play then it is not, IMO, a D3 league nor something we should invest any time and money in on a national level.

[ThiKu]

@redcoat - would anyone in a D3 be making $50g? I honestly doubt it as it'd be a u23 league and not likely many fully pro players in it. Although you might be able to attract the odd kid who isn't drafted through the MLS combine or through the NASL/USL Pro combines?

@Ted - Your model appears more a D2 than a D3, in my opinion. But I do like the model. A D3 must be more regionalized with a D2 more like what you propose, wouldn't it? I guess what needs to be clarified is what is a D3 in Canada (isn't the CSL allocated as a D3?) and what would a D2 look like (FCE?).

I imagine a D3 regionally could function on about 500 paying customers, while the D2 would require the 2000(ish) paying customers. ??

[Juby]

With 16 teams, and $500 000 budgets, I think we could probably put out a fairly pro product with about 200 000 in contracts. To me, if you had 10 players playing for 12 - 15 000 annually, you could call it pro. It would probably be the U-23 league people are talking about but I do think we have the talent to make a 16 pretty good teams for on the pitch quality despite a basic pay (think about how the CSL get's a few guys who would probably earn that much in Europe for 5 000 just because they can't play in Europe).

Also, I really wish we could avoid territory rights a bit. In three obvious markets it might be possible to put a few teams where there are a few big investors or foster rivalries that benefit both teams. Maybe we could even do something like 8 western teams and 12 eastern teams. This is right where I drone on about a low level system below it would help so that if a team or two went down, we might have a team or two in the wings at the semi pro level.

I was thinking a chart might help, feel free to add levels i missed or to disagree with my purposely vague conclusions I'm sorry this is confusing:

8 teams, 1.5 mill expenditure, It might catch on but can we find 8 groups with those resources? maybe? Would probably require somewhere around 5000 spectators for an ideal 16 home games to make over a million in tickets and concession before sponsors and youth setups (a decent youth setup could make like 50 000 - 150 000 dollars, which isn't huge at this level but it's a fairly stable income if you create a successful operation at any level.)

12 teams, 1 million expenditure, a little more inclusive but probably in the same boat as above. 3000*10$*16 home games is 480 000, lets make it 600 000 including concessions and you might be within striking distance, 4000 would be 640 000 rounded concessions 750 000. Is it realistic?

15 teams, 750 000 expenditure, biregional, part of ted''s idea(except I am going to force it into purely conference travel here), I kinda like this because it would have a good amount of room for salary (350 000?), so it would probably give more bang for your buck then the national idea right above by saving a bunch in travel. More inclusive again, but I'm still gonna make this the last of the fairly large team ideas (you'd still need at least a pretty rich group of people per team) but it might be possible. 2000 tickets*10*16 = 320 000 rounded concessions 400 000, maybe 2500*10*16 = 400 000 rounded concessions 500 000. With a good youth setup it would be within striking distance but the wages might fluctuate directly based on tickets or sponsors (200 000) or ownership.

I'm gonna put in a bit of my ideas into ted's for the 500 000 level with 20 teams. It probably be a bit over half the salary expenditure as the idea above but a few more teams in a cheaper model. Less of a league, maybe more of a business sell. 1000 tickets*10$*16 ideal matches would be 160 000, maybe a bit over 200 000 with concessions. maybe 1500*10*16=240 000 rounded 300 000, with good youth setups that would be realistic but it's similar to option above, if you have 1500 spectators you only need 75 000 in sponsors, but if you only get a 1000 spectators a game, you'd need like 200 000 in sponsorships.

When we get in to decent sized regions, the travel really dips in price, if FCE is paying around 400 000 annually, I don't think it's unrealistic to expect the 4 or 5 region models to dip below 150 000, maybe even under 100 000 in denser regions. If travel is so low then we can draw up a whole myriad of levels, 150 - 200 000, current CSL level 40 - 50 teams, 500 tickets/decent youth setup or great youth setup even with not a whole lot of sponsors needed would achieve this. Then we'll say 250 000 expenditure would make a CSL with 50% more salaries for a big western division and 100% more for still small divisions, and then the 350 000 out west model would double CSL salaries in a saskatoon to victoria division.

The key here is that maybe some of the smaller divisions can be built in tandem with one of the larger ideas? although that might be to ambitious.

As a super realistic, bare minimum (perhaps tandem) suggestion, I think we could do a fair amount with a strong bureacratic approach. I'll admit, at first it wouldn't do more then create a lot more semi pro and youth contracts, but a nice semi proish map of canada would probably be a fairly sustainable fluid safety net for all our other plans. By bureacratic, I mostly mean the CSA tries to help organize teams into a maybe basic semi pro league in BC (tries), encourages a small step from the AMSL maybe, take a pulse of praire possibilities. Raise the bar a bit in Ontario, maybe give Quebec room to breathe and Look in the Maritimes similarly to BC (maybe too much micro management though). Right there, off a lot of work but not much actual CSA cash we would have a light frame work without a big scary jump. And if we do go big, this might be a nice tandem option.

Sorry, I'll probably be editing that for a while

[Redcoatsforever]

@redcoat - would anyone in a D3 be making $50g? I honestly doubt it as it'd be a u23 league and not likely many fully pro players in it. Although you might be able to attract the odd kid who isn't drafted through the MLS combine or through the NASL/USL Pro combines?

That's why I said under $50,000.00. Basically, I'm thinking that since we're trying to build ourselves up from (let's be pessimistic about it for a second) just above minnow status, we should be recruiting national team players from Carribean countries and decent Central Americans. People in that position will play well at the D3 level, provide a better playing pool, will help our fellow lower-level nations improve (I think a more competitive CONCACAF is better for us), and since they play for minnows, they're cheap. If you can draw foreign talent for your starting lineup for $2,000.00 a month and a dorm room, you're in a great place.

[ThiKu]

^only if there is a limit on foreigners. but maybe the salary cap only applies to domestic signings? ie, can spend to attract a few guys from wherever and pay them whatever you negotiate with them but the rest of the roster has to follow a min-max budget for domestic signings. ie, 3 foreigners max?

[Red and White]

I don't often post here, but I lurk daily, and this is a topic I'd like to share some thoughts on:

Firstly, is there a particular reason we're having these domestic league discussions? Is it based completely on the ReThink study regarding the viability of Canadian domestic soccer, or has the CSA actually given us a more concrete reason to hope for domestic football?

Canada desperately needs a much larger pro soccer presence, for both increasing talent on the mens National Team AND to win fans who would presumably get drawn to the national team through their local football club. The way we're going, I see Canada getting about 4 NASL clubs for a total of 7 pro clubs in this country (MLS + NASL). I base the estimate of 4 NASL clubs on this quote from the league's commissioner about a week ago:

“I wouldn’t say Canada is a number-one priority,” said Downs. “For us, the number-one priority is the west coast of the United States and filling out the Midwest. But, with the success Montreal and Edmonton have had in our league, it is clear Canada is a fertile ground for professional soccer, and we would be remiss not to look at other opportunities there.”

In other words, he sees Canada as a source of cash for his league, but can't or won't give us many clubs because, at the end of the day, he answers to the USSF. In any case, having 7 pro clubs in Canada is acceptable for me, but NOT ideal by any means.

I wouldn't be happy unless one of the following two things happen:

1) The CSA lobbies NASL to create a Canadian division which would have 8-12 clubs, with possible expansion to 12-16 in the distant future. We've got two on board (Ottawa / FC Edmonton). With Hamilton possibly being a third, five other cities would be required. I'm confident those cities exist in Canada, and they've been mentioned plenty of times in this thread (cities such as Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, possibly an east coast city, etc.). NASL needs attendances of about 3k-5k to survive. I feel that is an achievable target for Canadian cities.

2) If NASL isn't willing to give us that much lee-way, the only other option (in my opinion of course) is the Canadian NATIONAL domestic league, in large part what this thread is about. However, I can't see third division Canadian soccer thriving on a national landscape (assuming third division is CSL standard). The travel costs alone would bring it down. If its started, we have to have a goal of promoting it to second division status as soon as possible (no more than 3-5 years). There is also the fact that "third division Canadian football" is tough to market, whereas "second division", under only MLS, is much more plausible. I'd even be fine with the CSA altering their standards just to officially bring it up to second division (assuming that is possible).

If we're to go down this route, I think MLS is a great template for the league to be based on. The single-entity structure with severe limits on costs are by no means enjoyable for "pioneer" fans of the league, but in todays environment, MLS did a great job working their way up to viability. I think its possible to replicate their template with a domestic Canadian league, on a smaller scale of course. The big financial issue is likely travel, which would most likely be countered by a regional focus to the league. Another possible solution to travel costs is to look at the Russian Premier League (Russia being another massively large country, of course). Through basic internet research, I haven't been able to find how they deal it, but they could be a nice lead.

With the 2015 Women's World Cup coming to Canada, we're going to see stadiums and infrastructure come into place. It'll also lead to hype and excitement surrounding the game in Canada. If I'm the CSA, I'd target either 2014 or 2015 as a year to start a domestic league, particularly with NASL poaching our best markets for their league. But like I said above, I doubt it will happen, although I would be ecstatic if proven wrong.

(Link to where I got the NASL commissioner quote -> http://the11.ca/2012/04/17/nasl-commissioner-speaks-about-ottawa-fc-edmonton-and-canadian-expansion/)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Firstly, is there a particular reason we're having these domestic league discussions? Is it based completely on the ReThink study regarding the viability of Canadian domestic soccer, or has the CSA actually given us a more concrete reason to hope for domestic football?

...

With the 2015 Women's World Cup coming to Canada, we're going to see stadiums and infrastructure come into place. It'll also lead to hype and excitement surrounding the game in Canada. If I'm the CSA, I'd target either 2014 or 2015 as a year to start a domestic league, particularly with NASL poaching our best markets for their league. But like I said above, I doubt it will happen, although I would be ecstatic if proven wrong.

(Link to where I got the NASL commissioner quote -> http://the11.ca/2012/04/17/nasl-commissioner-speaks-about-ottawa-fc-edmonton-and-canadian-expansion/)

The Women's World Cup thing was what people within the CSA were hoping would act as a catalyst for a D2 national league. An It's Called Football podcast interview with Peter Montopoli is worth a listen on that. A moratorium was put in place on further entries into USSF leagues below the D1 level and the Rethink study was commissioned with a former Vancouver 86ers and CMNT player, Jim Easton, essentially doing the legwork required to find out if a national league was feasible at this time and if so what it's format should be.

Nothing has been officially announced on how that went but the editor of the soccer blog on The Score website was involved with the Rethink study and in an interview for an It's Called Football podcast (I've provided the link several times already) explained that the feedback had been that a D2 league wasn't viable so the recommendation was going to be to pursue a D3 level league with a U-23 developmental focus during the second phase of the Rethink study. There has been no word so far whether the CSA gave them the green light for that. It is certainly noteworthy that the NASL commissioner felt able to make those remarks about exploring expansion in several Canadian markets, however.

[ThiKu]

The moratorium has been lifted re: Canadian teams entering the American D2 market. Even when there was teams were being given approval to join Yank leagues. The moratorium expired in late 2011 anyway.

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?689-CSA-won-t-stop-Ottawa-s-NASL-ambitions

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?528-CSA-puts-brakes-on-future-D2-sanctioning-in-US-leagues

A Canada D3 regionalized is a great idea and we're just bantying about ideas on how that might look. Each province having its own league? Combine a couple provinces like in CHL? Who knows...But it has to be at least an 8 month season, would have to have SSS, live streams, some sort of pathway to the Amway Cup, and serious youth programs attached to it. Not to mention players getting involved in the MLS, NASL, and USL Pro player combines. There couldn't be ANY barriers to selling players overseas or to MLS teams. Players would have to apply to and get accepted into the MLS combine/draft. Otherwise, the league will just be a bunch of CSL's and that won't get us any further. I also think MLS Canada YOUTH teams would have to be involved. A limit on foreigners (3 per team? Americans would be foreign of course). Note: I'd say MLS Canada reserve teams would be more appropriate for a Canada D2 (if the level was of sufficient quality to challenge those players).

[Juby]

maybe I'll just make it super obvious:

USL Pro is basically a D2 league that is operating at D3 level in order to avoid the USSF's stringent D2 sanctioning standards. What is usually meant by D3 in discussions like this is something significantly more regional in scope with budgets in the $150k sort of range. Jim Easton and co came to the conclusion that a Canada only D2 scale league wasn't viable at the present time and recommended a D3 level league with a strong U23 focus.

As you can see here, he starts off confused correcting us from talking about d-2.

If you don't know who Jim Easton is you clearly need to get up to speed on what is actually happening right now. You also can't have been paying too close attention to the 86ers in the late 80s the last time there was an attempt at a coast to coast league. If you take the time to listen to the recent It's Called Football podcast that had Richard Whittall as a guest you'll quickly find out that the type of league you are describing in this thread is not what is on the agenda right now:

http://itscalledfootball.podhoster.com/index.php?pid=29941

Still clearly confused, because the league we are describing (d-3 regional) is the one being recommended. And here is where he digs he's heels in on Jim Easton even though it's completely irrelevant.

Wrong Jim Easton and at no point did I compare what was happening in the CSL in the late 80s to today. The Jim Easton who was commissioned to do the rethink study is an ex-86ers and CMNT player. Again I would point people to the It's Called Football podcast to find out the inside scoop on what was recommended to the CSA and why.

If we give bbtb the benefit of the doubt (we all know were he's confused) then we have to assume he's still off topic bitching about a d-2.

Repeating the same non-sequitor even after it has been pointed out to be one is nothing but a waste of bandwidth. Jim Easton was part of one of the most noteworthy domestic pro teams in Canadian soccer history. The 1989 86ers team that had an unprecedented run of games in which they went undefeated. He also played for the team this board is supposed to be all about i.e. the Canadian national team. He is somebody that an older Whitecaps fan like Ted could reasonably be expected to have heard of based on his playing career in addition to his role with the feasibility study that the CSA commissioned.

The D2 national league fantasy that is being discussed in this thread (apparently based on a misconception of what is meant by D3 in a CSA as opposed to USSF sanctioning context) was rejected as being not viable at this time. The recommendation made was to pursue something a lot closer to Dino Rossi's League1Ontario concept. Unfortunately there has been no word so far of the CSA giving them the green light to pursue phase two of the study on that basis. Listen to the podcast clip if you have no idea what I am referring to on that.

Here he confirms he still isn't aware (or is being a huge troll) that we are discussing regional d-3, not national d-2. He also apparantly finally proves his point about who Jim Easton is, but how does proving who jim easton is make him correct for posting 4 times about off topic about d-2? Then he links a prominent board member to his post to try and pretend he not off topic.

This is rather bizarrre, he's responding to someone who briefly responded to me, he's supposed to be ignoring me so it made no sense for him to respond. But he posts an even more off topic response:

If you want to deal with reality rather than fantasy check out this recent interview with David Downs, the commisioner of the NASL:

http://www.cansoc.org/showthread.php?43923-NASL-expansion-in-Canada&p=443657&viewfull=1#post443657

The key thing to note is that there is no more talk of waiting for the CSA to deal with the moratorium issue. Instead mention is made of engaging with several potential markets in Canada. Winnipeg would be a prime suspect.

On further Canadian expansion:

“We have definitely been engaged with several potential markets.”

But Downs said, because all discussions are in the preliminary stages, that he wouldn’t want to divulge exactly which Canadian markets at which the league is looking.

“I wouldn’t say Canada is a number-one priority,” said Downs. “For us, the number-one priority is the west coast of the United States and filling out the Midwest. But, with the success Montreal and Edmonton have had in our league, it is clear Canada is a fertile ground for professional soccer, and we would be remiss not to look at other opportunities there.”

Also worth noting that the mechanism that was cited by Peter Montopoli on an It's Called Football podcast for generating a national league (i.e. stadium funding for the 2015 Womens' World Cup) is now being talked about as the way FC Edmonton will get a suitable stadium for NASL games:

On FC Edmonton’s move from Foote Field to Clarke Stadium:

“Everything I have been told about it is very positive. But it’s not perfect; that won’t come until a new Women’s World Cup stadium is constructed in Edmonton, and the team will be involved in that.”

This is clearly right off topic (NASL d2) and he puts a comment in the middle to try and link Peter Montopoli to things David Downs said. On top of that, Why would the NASL commish be talking about a Canadian d-3? Why would that NON-MENTION mean anything? Were not allowed to be on topic but he will draw conculsions based on what DAVID DOWNS DIDN'T SAY!

And then he tries to tell everyone else that their confused, not him:

Regardless of whether you have me on ignore or not the first page and a half was based on a misunderstanding of what is actually happening right now. This is easy enough to verify by listening to the It's Called Football podcast I have provided a link for:

http://itscalledfootball.podhoster.com/index.php?pid=29941

Here he's trying to confuse the issue:

The Canadian definition of D3 (i.e. not USL Pro and people's pet fantasy leagues with team budgets approaching $1 million but leagues like the CSL and the new Quebec semi-pro league with budgets about an order of magnitude lower than that) basically covers leagues that people participate in as a hobby away from their regular 9 to 5 jobs in much the same manner as elite amateur leagues like the VMSL or AMSL. It's something that players like Andrea Lombardo, Richard Assante, Joey Melo and Gabe Gala do basically after they fail to make the grade at a pro level.

The key to development for the CMNT is at a younger age than that. The reason a U23 D3 league has been recommended by Jim Easton is probably to create an environment that fills the niche that PDL/NCAA has in an American context in a manner that better fits the needs of Canadian players. Hopefully League1Ontario will lead the way on that.

Notice how he compares the semi pro CSL to amateur leagues and then advocates the amateur PDL and the not yet existing L1O to get out of these amateur traps? How is recommending players play in leagues with lower budgets and less pay an improvement? Why couldn't you just recommend the CSL as it's obviously doing the function you want? Why do you have to things this dumb, like recommend an amateur team over a semi pro team, to get to low level pro!? Also, notice how their is apparently no possible options between million dollar expenditure's and the current 150 000 - 200 000$ CSL expenditure. He won't acknowledge the 800 000$ in range between the present and final ideal product? It's just a stupid point that over simplifies our points to look as dumb as his.

Jim Easton's role was to sound out the views of the people who would need to be interested to see if the type of D2 (in Canadian terms, D3 in USSF terms) national league that is being described by Ted was viable. If you listen to the podcast I have provided a url for you will find that the feedback that was received on that was almost universally negative. That is a highly relevant piece of information for a thread like this.

Still off topic, Ted was talking regional d3, which the podcast actually said recieved 'widespread support'. So what is it, are you lieing or do you not like to read or are you aware your a troll?

Listen to the podcast clip I provided and you will find the answer. If that is beyond you Mr Google is your friend:

http://www.sirc.ca/news_view.cfm?id=42545

The difference between D3 in a Canadian context and under the USSF's sanctioning system has been explained multiple times now. USL Pro operates on a D2 level in Canadian terms.

When you put it all together like this it gets a little embarressing for him.

This is getting silly now. There is only one part of that which merits a response. If you actually take the time to listen to the ICF podcast you will hear someone who was heavily involved with Rethink's study describe the sort of feedback they received and the reasons for the recommendation that they were making to the CSA.

http://itscalledfootball.podhoster.com/index.php?pid=29941

Still trying to pretend his arguement is predicated on who Jim Easton is.

The thread title is actually, "A workable national D3?". A question like that invites a negative as well as a positive response.

Except he's been argueing against d2, and nonsense is not a 'negative response', just because you can put two words together doesn't mean you should say them, of course I'm trying to talk to someone who thinks others are responsible for fact checking your claims.

So in other words you couldn't even follow the hyperlink I provided, which provides the answer to your question?

http://www.sirc.ca/news_view.cfm?id=42545

You mean the one that encourages this conversation? And here's a 8 month old report where he proves who Jim Easton is...

This has got to be a windup? He is a well known former Vancouver 86ers player and played for the national team. It was quite widely publicized at least in soccer media terms that he had been commissioned by the CSA to do a study into the future of pro soccer in Canada. The original post in this thread specifically mentions his Rethink study. Is it really unreasonable to expect that somebody who does that should be aware of the name of the person who carried out the study when he used to play for the team this board is supposed to be all about i.e. the CMNT? Anyway over and out for a few days. Hopefully people will take the time to follow the links I have provided and will digest the information contained so they can have an informed opinion on what is happening right now.

More of him thinking that we'll accept all his conclusions without thinking if he can prove who Jim Easton is, even though he still hasn't shown us what JIm Easton said, let alone if he agrees with bbtb.

The Women's World Cup thing was what people within the CSA were hoping would act as a catalyst for a D2 national league. An It's Called Football podcast interview with Peter Montopoli is worth a listen on that. A moratorium was put in place on further entries into USSF leagues below the D1 level and the Rethink study was commissioned with a former Vancouver 86ers and CMNT player, Jim Easton, essentially doing the legwork required to find out if a national league was feasible at this time and if so what it's format should be.

Nothing has been officially announced on how that went but the editor of the soccer blog on The Score website was involved with the Rethink study and in an interview for an It's Called Football podcast (I've provided the link several times already) explained that the feedback had been that a D2 league wasn't viable so the recommendation was going to be to pursue a D3 level league with a U-23 developmental focus during the second phase of the Rethink study. There has been no word so far whether the CSA gave them the green light for that. It is certainly noteworthy that the NASL commissioner felt able to make those remarks about exploring expansion in several Canadian markets, however.

more unsourced comments (can you prove what you've claimed the CSA was thinking?) and general dishonesty (I wonder why he's not actually linking teh podcast this time!?) and then he vaguely mentions the rethink study and the moratorium to pretend he's making a point (he's not, he's just saying keywords). Then he goes on to actually answer teh question but as backwards as possible. This discussion started because of the regional U-23 recommendation, but he somehow distorts it into not only acting like were' making a big deal out of no information (that's blizzards forte) despite his podcast saying the opposite, he goes back into shooting down a national d-2 and recommending the NASL, 8 pages in and he's still trying to turn this into NASL Expansion into Canada instead of just going to that thread.

14 posts out of 72, all of them off topic, dishonest or pointless. Most of them making non points and just discourging the topic without even engaging the topic. 14 posts because he's confused? 14 posts and he still failed to make an actual on topic contribution. All he did was argue against something off topic, defend the veracity of point that never mattered (we want to know what jim easton said, not his ****ing club history) and insult everyone for talking part in conversation he wasn't contributing to. FFS is it really appropiate for 20% of a thread to be one persn repeating trollish arguements? 20% for one man's waste (and add to that the extra 10-15% of me pointlessly bitching at him).

How many nonsense posts is he gonna make to distance himself between this older nonsense? How much time of ours will he waste to convince himself he hasn't embarressed himself?

[dmont]

.

If the mods won't do any, I'll say it. I really wish you'd give it a rest, Juby. This is bordering on obsessive.

I don't care if he sometimes mentions D2 in a D3 thread; I enjoy his posts a heck of a lot more than yours.