A Workable National D3?

[brettinhalifax]

Well... good thread topic ted. The first page and a half were pretty interesting.

[Juby]

Well... good thread topic ted. The first page and a half were pretty interesting.

I'm sorry, I know it's annoying, you have to ignore his nonsense and then my nonsense. BUT THIS IS NOT A ****ING NASL DEBATE and it is unacceptable to force us to end up trying to squeeze it over 20 pages between a completely off topic debate. I'm ending it here.

On Topic Now here's the difference with me, I am actually capable of contributing!

I might come across as a little repetive but my general feeling is that for us to be successful, were going to have to be very unsymetrical to start. I was already thinking about how odd my recomendation of a decent west division, next to a smallish winnipeg area division looked. On top of that I always wanted to keep Southern Ontario small to really take advantage our most popular regions (a lot of pro/rel divisions, pure fantasy I admit but it makes sense in theory).

But beyond that, when you look at the maritimes, it's not a guarentee that NFLD clubs would pay for the travel (hopefully they would eventually). So the whole of Canada might have 5 or 6 very funny looking divisions with a disparity of play (maybe create d3 sub standards, d3a d3b etc, based on certain criteria). Although at that point we may have only really created a bunch of semi pro and youth contracts from a player perspective, we would at least have the definition of 'infrastructure' to consistently build on. A funny but almost complete map looks a lot better then two circles out east, one a little lower in BC and a few PDL outposts.

[brettinhalifax]

Wow! I put Juby and BringBackTheBlizzard on my ignore list and now the thread is back on track! It is an Earth Day miracle!

Would MLS reserve squads have a role to play in a Canadian D3? If so, that's 3/8 or 3/16. There are a few professionally run Canadian PDL organizations (Victoria, London, Winnipeg, Thunder Bay) that would probably be able to step up to a D3 level. So that's 7/8 or 7/16.

And I think the MLS reserve teams would provide a stability to the league. They wouldn't be going anywhere, and that would reduce the risk for potential expansion owners.

[Juby]

Wow! I put Juby and BringBackTheBlizzard on my ignore list and now the thread is back on track! It is an Earth Day miracle!

That's a net win for me! When I have a good idea, other people repeat it, but if your ignoring blizzard you won't have to worry as much about, well basic honesty (most people are well meaning, even me surprisingly).

On topic again. Well a couple of the big teams already take part in CSL and at other levels so I wouldn't be suprised if they did contribute. To be fair though it is still a strong jump from csl and pdl to where were all hoping for so we can't completely rely on the reserve teams to prop it up. There are a tonne of options though, all of which require a lot of publicity and the actual courting of investors, we could try and include foreign affiliates (plenty across the america's, Santos Saskatoon?) but it is a tricky jump unless the CSA and the clubs hunt down investors. That's why I always recommend to start a little more pragmatically (small semi pro divisions) but build up from there.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Well... good thread topic ted. The first page and a half were pretty interesting.

Regardless of whether you have me on ignore or not the first page and a half was based on a misunderstanding of what is actually happening right now. This is easy enough to verify by listening to the It's Called Football podcast I have provided a link for:

http://itscalledfootball.podhoster.com/index.php?pid=29941

[Juby]

No, this is what this thread is based on, the first post by Ted. The first page and a half is ON TOPIC, not based on a misunderstanding, your going off topic, not the original poster. Don't be such a twat.

With recent discussions regarding NASL Expansion in Canada and the Rethink Study it has been suggested, yet again, that one of the key things missing in the soccer landscape in Canada is teams at the D3 level.

Can we bring together the clubs and leagues needed to create something that is truly a national D3 league? What advantage would there be in a new Canadian-only, regional D3 versus the existing (although clearly needing improvements) US & Canadian USL Pro league?

I personally would prefer a Canadian-only league as a patriot and because it would give "us" somewhat more influence, through the CSA, on the league's operations.

That said, I see advantages to the USL Pro (or similar) in that adding American teams to the mix would make it easier to find regional competition and provide a better base for the business side (ie: more teams within a defined traveling distance.)

[ThiKu]

@brett - I think MLS reserve teams would be best served in a D2 structure. I like the idea of working them into it somehow. Of course the league would have to ensure the MLS teams that they are best served putting their reserves into whatever league is presented them as opposed to what they currently play (MLS reserve league and in many cases, PDL....?).

Juby is prob right - a D3 wouldn't be "balanced" to start. It'd be built-up. But you can't have different criteria just to be inclusive. Meet the criteria or don't enter.

So a D3 prob is one that might be multiple provinces combining in one area, but singular (Ontario, Quebec) divisions elsewhere....maritimes will always be in tough to enter. Unless they can get significant financial backing.

For D3 to work you need a decent salary (min $1500/mth, max....who knows), a salary cap with foreign signing restrictions of some sort, a minimum 8 month season, and MAJOR promotion of not only youth players (ie, getting them drafted to MLS, signed to full ride university scholarships) but the league (TV/online stream and inclusion in the Amway CanChamp for the league winner - league winner, not playoff winner please!). Financial stability would be a requirement but not as stringent as a D2 would require. D3 teams could come, go, reform similar to what you see in USL Pro I suppose....and otherwise major sponsorship by travel, hotel, food, uniforms (some company can design all uniforms as significant savings to the clubs or at no cost?)....all kits available to order/purchase of course.

[dmont]

.

Why are people ignoring Blizzard? If anything, Juby seems to fly off the handle at the drop of a hat.

On Topic!: For D3 (and I think D4 too), I don't see anything wrong with the CSL model at the provincial level, following something like a CHL model at the national level. For D3, have semi-pro sides much like the CSL playing regular seasons within-province to keep the travel costs down . Let the provincial champs play-off for a national D3 championship and (as long as we're spit-balling here) take part in the Canadian Championship with the MLS and NASL clubs if there is an odd-number of D1 and D2 teams. Let each D3 semi-pro team also operate a D4 amateur club that plays a spring/summer schedule and then lets the players off in time to play on collegiate teams.

I'm a little surprised at the amount of discussion... doesn't seem like rocket science to me.

[dmont]

@brett - I think MLS reserve teams would be best served in a D2 structure. I like the idea of working them into it somehow. Of course the league would have to ensure the MLS teams that they are best served putting their reserves into whatever league is presented them as opposed to what they currently play (MLS reserve league and in many cases, PDL....?).

Juby is prob right - a D3 wouldn't be "balanced" to start. It'd be built-up. But you can't have different criteria just to be inclusive. Meet the criteria or don't enter.

So a D3 prob is one that might be multiple provinces combining in one area, but singular (Ontario, Quebec) divisions elsewhere....maritimes will always be in tough to enter. Unless they can get significant financial backing.

For D3 to work you need a decent salary (min $1500/mth, max....who knows), a salary cap with foreign signing restrictions of some sort, a minimum 8 month season, and MAJOR promotion of not only youth players (ie, getting them drafted to MLS, signed to full ride university scholarships) but the league (TV/online stream and inclusion in the Amway CanChamp for the league winner - league winner, not playoff winner please!). Financial stability would be a requirement but not as stringent as a D2 would require. D3 teams could come, go, reform similar to what you see in USL Pro I suppose....and otherwise major sponsorship by travel, hotel, food, uniforms (some company can design all uniforms as significant savings to the clubs or at no cost?)....all kits available to order/purchase of course.

Since MLS and NASL teams compete with each other in the Canadian Championship, I would avoid having D1 reserve sides playing in the D2 league. I think some kind of formal agreement on loaning players would be preferable.

[Juby]

But you can't have different criteria just to be inclusive. Meet the criteria or don't enter.

I was probably being too diplomatic in my language, I did mean to have a strong sense of criteria (like d3d is the current d-3 criteria and each one up to d3a is progressively more stringent) but I wanted avoid accidentaly insulting the PDL people by calling the PDL like D-8 with the current CSL like D-7 in a hypothetical system. Probably overthinking the optics of the jargon.

Dmont, I think your system sounds fine, it's just that not every province can sustain it, which can strand some good markets. And wherever it's sustainable, combining provinces to create a higher tier is probably best (key word is sustainable).

So I am a little hesitant to recommend rigid provincial boundaries (let's face it, political boundaries don't always make a lot of financial sense), but if you said to me we could have 4 provinces with decent d-3s in the next few years, and maybe some improved amateur (or maybe amateur/semi pro) leagues in some other provinces, I'd obviously take it.

Also I think the reserves sides is a little more complicated. Some countries do involve reserve teams fairly well, perhaps they should be excluded from CC play like B Liga sides in Spain won't be promoted if they win the Segunda (just create rules and exceptions). It would probably create alot of eligibility paper work but maybe the reserve sides could compete if they were cap tied in Champions league (that's might be doubtful though).

[Trillium]

Juby....

Just where to the stadia come from to make D3 work ..i.e. soccer specifc, with lights and facilitys etc. with concession revenue to cluibs in totality ?

Until you solve the stadia issue, none of it flies in my opinion.

Stadia cant be too big or too small, and you have to have concessions and washrooms etc. just where do these stadia exist in the citys your talking about ?

[Juby]

Juby....

Just where to the stadia come from to make D3 work ..i.e. soccer specifc, with lights and facilitys etc. with concession revenue to cluibs in totality ?

Until you solve the stadia issue, none of it flies in my opinion.

Stadia cant be too big or too small, and you have to have concessions and washrooms etc. just where do these stadia exist in the citys your talking about ?

Sorry the explanation is a little long but it's not dickish or anything

I agree, but we all know exactly how this get's done, it's not simple but if were not going to do anything because we don't have facilities now, were not going to be able to do anything in the future unless we spur on interest first (BUY TICKETS FOR AMATEUR/SEMI PRO LEAGUES even if their in amateur/semi pro stadiums):

1.The basic way is to put low level teams in whatever low level facilities will have them, and if it catches on, either the team might make a good enough profit or the community might get around the team and build stuff at a more municipal level. It's very unlikely(not impossible though) for facilities to get built before there's a team or interest. In other words: chicken or the egg, if you accept the lack of SS facilities as unsurmountable, it's doubtful their will be the interest to get the perfect sized stadium built (and even then, your guessing about 'perfect' size if there's no team yet)

2.Also, just by creating leagues you might get the odd strong owner who finally sees a real purpose in building a stadium privately. It's rare but once again, it's not happening at the D3 level until the leagues are existing an stable (to make it a good investment).

3.There's the odd example of a community building something right for say the collegiate level, but it's not like that will disappear if we start on the right direction.

4. I probably missed somthing obvious but at this level these seem like the most likely at the moment.

To be fair, IMO, a lot of regional d-3 teams might be adequetly served with a 1000 capacity stadium (bigger might be better but it should do for some teams) which isn't exactly super rare. I also don't give two ****s if there's football lines, not a bit, I know people complain but if you have a nice field, with decent stands and change rooms and concessions etc., then I'd think it would be kinda snobby to toss them out at this level (maybe d-2 but if your gonna not enjoy a semi pro game because it has semi pro facilities your probably not really watching the game...).

Basically I'm saying start small and build, start making this local stadium a soccer hot spot, start supporting your local almost stadiumless team. If your community has nothing right now, odds are that big zero will stay zero. If you have even a crappy team, in ten years you might have at least improved upon that crappy team.

[dmont]

I was probably being too diplomatic in my language, I did mean to have a strong sense of criteria (like d3d is the current d-3 criteria and each one up to d3a is progressively more stringent) but I wanted avoid accidentaly insulting the PDL people by calling the PDL like D-8 with the current CSL like D-7 in a hypothetical system. Probably overthinking the optics of the jargon.

Dmont, I think your system sounds fine, it's just that not every province can sustain it, which can strand some good markets. And wherever it's sustainable, combining provinces to create a higher tier is probably best (key word is sustainable).

So I am a little hesitant to recommend rigid provincial boundaries (let's face it, political boundaries don't always make a lot of financial sense), but if you said to me we could have 4 provinces with decent d-3s in the next few years, and maybe some improved amateur (or maybe amateur/semi pro) leagues in some other provinces, I'd obviously take it.

Also I think the reserves sides is a little more complicated. Some countries do involve reserve teams fairly well, perhaps they should be excluded from CC play like B Liga sides in Spain won't be promoted if they win the Segunda (just create rules and exceptions). It would probably create alot of eligibility paper work but maybe the reserve sides could compete if they were cap tied in Champions league (that's might be doubtful though).

Agreed on the provinces. No need to be rigid on the provincial boundaries, combine them where it makes sense.

Toronto and Montreal have reserve/academy teams in the CSL (D3) and I hope Ottawa does the same in either the CSL or the new Quebec league.

In terms of facilities, I don't think you need much. Any city/town sizable enough to consider for D3 probably has a reasonably level field with lights. I doubt you'd need more than 500-1000 seats at this stage of the game.

[Redcoatsforever]

Agreed on the provinces. No need to be rigid on the provincial boundaries, combine them where it makes sense.

Toronto and Montreal have reserve/academy teams in the CSL (D3) and I hope Ottawa does the same in either the CSL or the new Quebec league.

In terms of facilities, I don't think you need much. Any city/town sizable enough to consider for D3 probably has a reasonably level field with lights. I doubt you'd need more than 500-1000 seats at this stage of the game.

With the LPSQ and CSL in talks about co-operating and having a "Canada Cup" between the two leagues, I think it would be nice if the current CSL would rebrand as the Ontario Premier Soccer League (or some such) and then the two leagues could operate under the shared banner of Canadian Soccer Leagues similar in name to USL, where leagues is pluaralized because it's an umbrella organization. I think it might help the LPSQ to appear more national and therefore more professional, or significant, or whatever to put butts in seats.

[ThiKu]

@dmont: Ya, can't really have strict provincial boundary. Just regional ones that can be adapted based on teams coming-going (D3 will have coming-going moreso than D2).

I like the CSL and the new QC league for what they are. But what MUST happen for them to bear fruit is for;

a - join Canadian Championship

b - players start getting sold/signed to fully pro teams

c - TV/streaming

Otherwise they'll remain as is. Fine for what it is but doesn't serve the purpose of developing players for CMNT (unless the player is on TFCA) - which is really what we're talking about here.

@trillium: Stadium circumstances for D3 aren't all that critical. A nice little field with metal stands to hold about 1000 is sufficient. Build a nice high chainlink fence and line with some nice tarps to keep out the gawkers and yer set. Or if something more permanent maybe you build something small like at Disney Cup in Florida....appears to hold just a few thousand (I didn't google it or anything though).

Most cities have a small city-owned soccer pitch with washrooms and a decent concession. Bring in some portable food venues (hot dog stands, whatever...) and yer good to go with the added metal seating and high fencing closed-in by tarps (Whitecaps used this for NASL for anyone who scoffs at the idea and FCE should consider it for their current facility based on the optics of the todays stream).

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Otherwise they'll remain as is. Fine for what it is but doesn't serve the purpose of developing players for CMNT (unless the player is on TFCA) - which is really what we're talking about here.

The Canadian definition of D3 (i.e. not USL Pro and people's pet fantasy leagues with team budgets approaching $1 million but leagues like the CSL and the new Quebec semi-pro league with budgets about an order of magnitude lower than that) basically covers leagues that people participate in as a hobby away from their regular 9 to 5 jobs in much the same manner as elite amateur leagues like the VMSL or AMSL. It's something that players like Andrea Lombardo, Richard Assante, Joey Melo and Gabe Gala do basically after they fail to make the grade at a pro level.

The key to development for the CMNT is at a younger age than that. The reason a U23 D3 league has been recommended by Jim Easton is probably to create an environment that fills the niche that PDL/NCAA has in an American context in a manner that better fits the needs of Canadian players. Hopefully League1Ontario will lead the way on that.

[Redcoatsforever]

The Canadian definition of D3 (i.e. not USL Pro and people's pet fantasy leagues with team budgets approaching $1 million but leagues like the CSL and the new Quebec semi-pro league with budgets about an order of magnitude lower than that) basically covers leagues that people participate in as a hobby away from their regular 9 to 5 jobs in much the same manner as elite amateur leagues like the VMSL or AMSL. It's something that players like Andrea Lombardo, Richard Assante, Joey Melo and Gabe Gala do basically after they fail to make the grade at a pro level.

The key to development for the CMNT is at a younger age than that. The reason a U23 D3 league has been recommended by Jim Easton is probably to create an environment that fills the niche that PDL/NCAA has in an American context in a manner that better fits the needs of Canadian players. Hopefully League1Ontario will lead the way on that.

Can you ever just like, y'know, not take a **** on a hypothetical discussion?

Nobody here claimed the all-Canadian D3 concept they were discussing was just going to spring up next season...

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Jim Easton's role was to sound out the views of the people who would need to be interested to see if the type of D2 (in Canadian terms, D3 in USSF terms) national league that is being described by Ted was viable. If you listen to the podcast I have provided a url for you will find that the feedback that was received on that was almost universally negative. That is a highly relevant piece of information for a thread like this.

[brettinhalifax]

...and yer good to go with the added metal seating and high fencing closed-in by tarps (Whitecaps used this for NASL for anyone who scoffs at the idea and FCE should consider it for their current facility based on the optics of the todays stream).

FCE is doing just that, but for some reason construction (assembly?) is running behind.

[ted]

He [Jim Easton] is somebody that an older Whitecaps fan like Ted could reasonably be expected to have heard of based on his playing career in addition to his role with the feasibility study that the CSA commissioned.

Lets clear some things up. Apologies for getting personal here but since I am being attacked on a personal level I feel I need to clear up some confusion.

I am NOT a Whitecraps fan. Never have been, never will be. I was born in Victoria and will be Victoria 'til I die and the scum across the Salish Sea are my bitter enemies on the pitch. Nicest bunch of fans I know off the pitch and great to have a beer with. Watching MLS I might pick Whitecraps over Toronto but I'd happily watch Portland thrash both of them.

I lived back east during the CSL era (mostly Ottawa and Halifax as a Navy brat). The CSL was virtually invisible to me as a kid and failed utterly to engage me. It was not until the 1994 World Cup was on TV that I became a born-again fan.

Regarding Mr Easton, you have replied several times and yet have still not told me much about this guy or why I should give a flying toss about his opinion. There are dozens of former Whitecaps players why should this guys opinions matter more? Does he work for Rethink or not?

And excuse me for not having the time to listen to soccer podcasts. I am lucky to get to watch Soccer Central sometime over the weekend. Is there an article online somewhere to read? Is there a copy of any report, preliminary or final on the CSA website?

The D2 national league fantasy that is being discussed in this thread

WTF are you on about?

The only "fantasy" is that we are discussion a D2 league of any kind. We are discussing no such thing in this thread.

The entire purpose of this thread was to discuss a realistic D3 model that would have a chance of succeeding based on business and sporting criteria.

If you cannot comprehend this simple fact then there is absolutely no point listening to anything you have to say on this, or frankly any other, matter.

Well... good thread topic ted. The first page and a half were pretty interesting.

I do find it amazing that when I create a thread to separate and address a particular issue it can get so far off track so easily. These damn kids and their inter-tubes!

[ThiKu]

@brett - thanks for the FCE stadium clarification.

OFF TOPIC: My thoughts - Fully pro D2 is needed. Fully pro. Minimum salaries of....$30G/yr? In this way the kids could share residencies. Teams looking to develop and sell the youngsters, give some Canadian vets somewhere to play. Be promoted and supported by a D3. The D2 must be 8-12 solid financial entities. Limit on foreigners to maybe....5 per team? (Americans included). League winner, league cup winner, and maybe "runner up" (however that looks) automatic entry to Amway CanChamp. MLS reserve teams can enter of course. A u23 Club Canada (no over-age players on this team allowed) would be another good addition - probably based in Toronto, even though there'd be a TFC reserve team ideally.

On Topic: D3 - regional of course. Serious u23-focus. Much lower salaries - maybe $1500/month? Serious limit on foreigners (Americans included!) to maybe....3 per team? Overage allowed...maybe 5 per team? Salary cap in place but NO salary cap with regards to signing overage players. "off cap." Participation in Canadian Championship for league regular season winners playoff. IE, all the league winners playoff over a weekend, winner gets into Amway. Club Canada u19 could play here. No over-age players allowed on that team (ideally make it like a PDL Pro program whereby some NCAA and CIS players can come in and "trial" without losing their college eligibility - if that's possible). MLS USSDA teams could play in this league instead of the USSDA? Likely a tougher competitive environment as it'd be u23 rather than strictly youth.

*U23 league would HAVE to follow a CHL-like education plan model or at least have SERIOUS push-connection with NCAA/CIS for scouting purposes etc. League winners/top teams attend overseas/North-South American tournaments such as Turf, Dallas, games/tours in Mexico etc etc...

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

...Regarding Mr Easton, you have replied several times and yet have still not told me much about this guy or why I should give a flying toss about his opinion. There are dozens of former Whitecaps players why should this guys opinions matter more? Does he work for Rethink or not?...

Listen to the podcast clip I provided and you will find the answer. If that is beyond you Mr Google is your friend:

http://www.sirc.ca/news_view.cfm?id=42545

WTF are you on about?

The difference between D3 in a Canadian context and under the USSF's sanctioning system has been explained multiple times now. USL Pro operates on a D2 level in Canadian terms.

[Redcoatsforever]

Listen to the podcast clip I provided and you will find the answer. If that is beyond you Mr Google is your friend:

http://www.sirc.ca/news_view.cfm?id=42545

It would seem you missed the point of Ted saying he's busy and is lucky to catch Soccer Central. Either way, an ICF podcast doesn't dictate absolute terms on anything, and this is a thread about "a workable, national D-3". That means, that what is proposed and discussed in the thread ought to be:

1) National

2) Workable

3) Third Division

So, as a point of reference, check if what you want to post fits those criteria. Those criteria again are:

1) National - (here meaning both playing in Canada and including most if not all regions of the country)

2) Workable - (has to be possible, although not necessarily absolutely certain to happen)

3) Third Division - (This is really self-explanatory at this point)

The difference between D3 in a Canadian context and under the USSF's sanctioning system has been explained multiple times now. USL Pro operates on a D2 level in Canadian terms.

Actually, USL Pro doesn't operate in Canadian terms; we're not involved in that league setup. NASL operates on a D2 level in Canadian terms. Know how I know that?

The CSA classifies NASL as D-2 in Canada. It doesn't rate USL Pro, and I don't think the CSA has any interest in further USL expansion in Canada.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

This is getting silly now. There is only one part of that which merits a response. If you actually take the time to listen to the ICF podcast you will hear someone who was heavily involved with Rethink's study describe the sort of feedback they received and the reasons for the recommendation that they were making to the CSA.

http://itscalledfootball.podhoster.com/index.php?pid=29941

[Redcoatsforever]

This is getting silly now. There is only one part of that which merits a response. If you actually take the time to listen to the ICF podcast you will hear someone who was heavily involved with Rethink's study describe the sort of feedback they received and the reasons for the recommendation that they were making to the CSA.

http://itscalledfootball.podhoster.com/index.php?pid=29941

So post it in the thread about the ReThink Study; this is the "Workable National D3" thread.