A Workable National D3?

[ted]

With recent discussions regarding NASL Expansion in Canada and the Rethink Study it has been suggested, yet again, that one of the key things missing in the soccer landscape in Canada is teams at the D3 level.

Can we bring together the clubs and leagues needed to create something that is truly a national D3 league? What advantage would there be in a new Canadian-only, regional D3 versus the existing (although clearly needing improvements) US & Canadian USL Pro league?

I personally would prefer a Canadian-only league as a patriot and because it would give "us" somewhat more influence, through the CSA, on the league's operations.

That said, I see advantages to the USL Pro (or similar) in that adding American teams to the mix would make it easier to find regional competition and provide a better base for the business side (ie: more teams within a defined traveling distance.)

[ThiKu]

It'd be a great idea if all the provincial associations can play nice Ted. Care to outline how you see this league working? Can it link-up with the Canadian Championship? How long will the season be? Semi-pro or strictly amateur? Things of that nature.

I would imagine a nationwide u23 league would have to be a few provinces combining, and of course strong ownership/sponsorship.

IE- BC/Alta, Sask/Man, Ontario, Quebec, Maritimes all with their own "conferences." QC and Ontario are pretty much ready to go. The Maritimes and the west are the issue.

Expansion to NASL and USL Pro above this would be critical - with no carrot at the end why would young players commit? I think having the Canadian Championship (and the obvious exposure that comes with it) would need to be the other carrot. On top of quality, professional set-up, web sites, sponsorships etc etc etc. The youth teams would need to have dedicated partnerships with the provincial and NTC youth programs as well as elite youth leagues as well ... one way to make the u23 league successful would be to make it the direct feeder system to the NASL and USL Pro expansion teams - kinda like AHL hockey where they are connected to fully pro teams, but are their own entity receiving subsidy from the pro team(s)?

Would a Canadian regional u23 league mean there would be NO chance for American u23's to join if they wanted? Would having American teams joining require USSF permission/partnership? I am thinking of the American teams in the PDL Pacific North West, and even the new Bellingham, Washington team in the PCSL.

[ray]

A Canadian Division 3 league is an achievable goal in the short-term that can have the desired effect of increasing the level of play.

I agree with Ted that an all-Canadian regional league is preferable. For me, integration with the Americans for D1 (MLS) and D2 (NASL) is desirable and necessary to play at the highest level possible and so we don't have to create a 6-8 team league all at once. (In truth, the U.S. also needs us at the D2 level). These reasons do not exist for Division 3. Provincially-based leagues already exist and we see the will (in Ontario and Quebec) to professionalize soccer's 3rd tier. I'd like to see the CSA unite existing D3 clubs under the umbrella of a single league and move away from the various separate efforts (for instance, Canadian Soccer League, USL PDL, proposed League One Ontario). Given what already exists on the ground this may not be possible but it should be the goal where future sanctioning is concerned.

From a practical point of view, having a single league opens the possibility of attracting a major sponsor and focusing media attention on a D3 championship tournament.

[Redcoatsforever]

The two most important sponsors for a national D3 come inter-regional playoffs:

1) Official airline of [league name here]

2) Official hotel chain of [league name here]

I think most league-wide sponsorships should be less focused on bringing in money and more focused on bringing in services and equipment for each individual club, so that a lot of the costs associated with operations are already mitigated before the club finds local sponsors and generating gate revenue.

[ted]

I should clarify. I don't see a D3 as being officially a U23 league and it would either replace or be part of the existing North American D3 which is USL Pro. If you are talking about provincial "conferences" and more than about 16 teams in total you are speaking of a D4, amateur league. D3 is professional, a step or more above CSL, PCSL, PDL etc.

Now while I see no need to designate D3 as U23 (that need is already filled by outfits like the PDL and other D4 operations) a large chunk of players on D3 are likely to be U23 players hoping for better things but why do we need to limit it? That said, a U23 league with a 3-5 over-age players on the field during a game would probably be workable and might have advantages.

I think to provide a full and competitive schedule we need a season that is at minimum 20 games including any cup games spread from April through October. For that to happen we need two conferences of eight teams. More if we eliminate inter-conference games other than a league championship. Less if we were willing to dilute the competition and have teams meet more than home and away once.

Possible All-Canadian D3:

Western Conference: Victoria, Vancouver, Kelowna, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Regina and Winnipeg.

Eastern Conference: Toronto, Ottawa, Quebec City, Halifax, Kingston, Fredericton, Hamilton, Sherbrooke (subject to someone who actually knows the situation back East better than I do.)

But this is a lot of pressure to put on 16 Canadian cities. Just to get to that number we are talking about some marginal markets. Since D3 is professional it would mean we could not compromise the product on the field by diluting any further or trying to run a club in a market that could not provide a minimum of 2,000 average attendance at games.

Which brings us to adding some American teams:

Would having American teams joining require USSF permission/partnership? I am thinking of the American teams in the PDL Pacific North West, and even the new Bellingham, Washington team in the PCSL.

Yes, USSF has to give sanction. If we expand the number of USL Pro teams or we create an all-Canadian D3 and invite American teams the USSF still gets a say.

If we could get six cities playing in a professional D3 operation to start I believe we would be miles ahead of what we have now. Six cities could plug into an expanded USL Pro or other cross-border D3 with much less risk than trying to create a whole new league from scratch. It would also be cheaper overall. Each D3 team would require the same amount of money, X, regardless of if it is USL Pro or a new league. If we have to find 6X versus 12X or 16X we have a much easier job of it.

Six teams could still plug into the Voyageurs Cup gaining themselves more competitive games and exposure on the national scene such as it is. As well, players would have the opportunity to be effectively scouted by NASL and MLS clubs around the continent improving their career prospects which would be, I think, less likely in an all-Canadian league where they would be scouted by primarily just the Canadian MLS and NASL clubs. Not a huge difference to be fair, but something.

Good thinking on sponsorships BTW Redcoatsforever.

[Alex D]

I agree with Ted that there is no need to limit this to a U23 league and expanding the Cup to include these lower leagues is a must.

Honestly at this point I would be happy with a unified, professionally run, pan-Canadian D4 system. Start from the bottom, do it right, and work our way up. We could later launch a D3 by promoting proven clubs instead of arbitrarily selecting markets. Who knows, we could have (Gasp!) pro/rel at some point. We also desperately need an academy league system in the same vain as the USSF has implemented. Yes this is more of a long term move but it beats twiddling our thumbs for another 20 years.

Timeline:

2014- Roll out a new D4 and Academy league across the country

2018- Launch D3 from the best D4 clubs

2022- Start to see results, investigate viability of nationwide D2

2026- Host and win World Cup!

2028- Win Euro somehow!!

[brettinhalifax]

Ted - what kind of budget are you proposing? I guess around $400,000. 2,000 x 10 x $20 = $400,000 and 400k is a number I've seen bandied about for USL2/USL Pro.

Instead of 16 teams playing in 2 regional league/conferences, what happens if there is 8 teams playing in a single national league? Same caliber of play, same budgets with the exception of flights. If we have 8 teams, 4 in the west and 4 in the east, what would Edmonton's away schedule look like? At Victoria (twice), Regina (twice), Winnipeg (twice), London (once), Hamilton (once), Ottawa (once) and Halifax (once). So 6 regional away games and 4 long distance away games.

What is the extra cost for those 4 long distance away games? If we call it $25,000 per long distance game, the total extra cost is $100,000 per team per year.

So here's my question. What is more attainable, 16 teams each with a $400,000 budget or 8 teams each with a $500,000 budget?

[ted]

Honestly at this point I would be happy with a unified, professionally run, pan-Canadian D4 system.

I hear that. I'd be happy with any sort of professionally run, pan-Canadian system for development of soccer in this country!

Instead of 16 teams playing in 2 regional league/conferences, what happens if there is 8 teams playing in a single national league? Same caliber of play, same budgets with the exception of flights. If we have 8 teams, 4 in the west and 4 in the east, what would Edmonton's away schedule look like? At Victoria (twice), Regina (twice), Winnipeg (twice), London (once), Hamilton (once), Ottawa (once) and Halifax (once). So 6 regional away games and 4 long distance away games.

I like the way you are thinking Brett but I'm not sure it could be done. If the money was there it would be fantastic. The danger remains however of putting all our hopes and dreams on a limited number of Canadian teams. By including American teams the burden of league administration and marketing is reduced and the survival of the league is no longer dependant on every team succeeding.

Part of the collapse of the old CSL was that there were that many clubs and when one or two failed the whole house of cards fell down. If we had 6-8 teams in a USL Pro that was 16-20 teams total then losing one or two of the Canadian teams would not cause the whole system to collapse. I think investors would rather put money into something that is currently working and has a good chance to grow and thrive. Putting money into a new, small, all-Canadian D3 has a lot more risk.

As well it is not the same calibre of play to play the same teams multiple times. The ideal of the balanced schedule against more teams is important to both players and fans. Reducing the number of teams played does not help the development of players and risks making the fans, media and sponsors view the league as amateur.

Risk can often be overcome with money. Sadly, that kind of money has been unwilling to come to lower tier soccer in Canada so we have to mitigate the risks.

Speaking of money, in my head I am thinking total budgets of around $600k - $750k because the whole point of a D3 is to have players paid to play and train at at least a minimal level for the season. I am thinking minimum wages of $1,500 - $2,000 per month for players. Enough to make training and playing a priority. Not enough that they think they have made it working for that wage for 7 months of the year.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

USL Pro is basically a D2 league that is operating at D3 level in order to avoid the USSF's stringent D2 sanctioning standards. What is usually meant by D3 in discussions like this is something significantly more regional in scope with budgets in the $150k sort of range. Jim Easton and co came to the conclusion that a Canada only D2 scale league wasn't viable at the present time and recommended a D3 level league with a strong U23 focus.

[ted]

USL Pro is basically a D2 league that is operating at D3 level in order to avoid the USSF's stringent D2 sanctioning standards.

And your point?

They do not meet the very reasonable standard for D2 for they are D3. So what?

What is usually meant by D3 in discussions like this is something significantly more regional in scope with budgets in the $150k sort of range.

[Edited to be slightly less snarky- sorry] We are trying to build something better than what we have now and "discussions like this" need to come into the 21st century and address the needs of the players and the business of soccer in North America beyond 2012.

A budget of $150k is totally amateur with no pay for the players. This would be a horrible mistake. We already have lots of amateur teams at this level and there is no point in investing one single dime in more of the same when what we desperately need is professional players playing in front of reasonable crowds in meaningful games.

Jim Easton and co came to the conclusion that a Canada only D2 scale league wasn't viable at the present time and recommended a D3 level league with a strong U23 focus.

Who is Jim Easton and why should I care what he thinks? Is he a part of the Rethink group?

That said, I agree we could use a D3 league with a strong U23 focus (see the entire thread above). It accomplishes nothing however if it does not include provisions to pay players to train and play. Maybe $600k is too high but $150 is way too low if players, media, sponsors and especially spectators are going to take it seriously.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If you don't know who Jim Easton is you clearly need to get up to speed on what is actually happening right now. You also can't have been paying too close attention to the 86ers in the late 80s the last time there was an attempt at a coast to coast league. If you take the time to listen to the recent It's Called Football podcast that had Richard Whittall as a guest you'll quickly find out that the type of league you are describing in this thread is not what is on the agenda right now:

http://itscalledfootball.podhoster.com/index.php?pid=29941

[Trillium]

If you don't know who Jim Easton is you clearly need to get up to speed on what is actually happening right now. You also can't have been paying too close attention to the 86ers in the late 80s the last time there was an attempt at a coast to coast league. If you take the time to listen to the recent It's Called Football podcast that had Richard Whittall as a guest you'll quickly find out that the type of league you are describing in this thread is not what is on the agenda right now:

http://itscalledfootball.podhoster.com/index.php?pid=29941

Born 1940 played pro soccer scoring some three goals in his pro career in Scotland... managed Vancouver for two years.

Mmmm so this if the deep thinker who is making recommendations ?

Sorry again .. most of these retreads dont get it at all, D3 or D2 does not matter its an issue of having facilitys untill the CSA and everyone else in soccer gets a plan in place to fund and build SSS stadai at 5k or 10k depending on the ambition for D3 or D2, nothing will move ahead.

We need a single design that can be replicated accross the country ... natural turf, concessions parking etc. then the design and basic engineering drawings should be given to anyone who wants to build a stadia.

If as a business person i can invest 10 million own a five thousand seat stadia and have long term lease on land i.e. fifty years, I can see starting a d3 or D2 club.

My cost of money runs at 3% so a payment of 300k per year on revenue from 20 home games. So 15k per game for capital payments

At a ticket pricing equal to the price of a movie.. i.e. ten dollars you need to draw 1500 per game to fund the stadium, concessions give you another minimum ten dollars per person sales with 30% net profit or $4500 per game, x 20 = 90k revenue.

Which would let you have team budget for player salaries of 5k per player roughly.

You will nee added revenue sources and clearly would need to average more then 2000 per game to make it viable ... year over year, but is possible.

It starts with stadia.

Under the control of the club not a mucipality the stadia must be soccer only and with natural turf.

[ThiKu]

Ted's last post was spot-on.

BBTB - you can't compare what happened with the CSL in the 80's to what is being discussed here. Completely different arrangements. If not for any other reason than Vancouver wouldn't be part of it - they are in MLS.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Wrong Jim Easton and at no point did I compare what was happening in the CSL in the late 80s to today. The Jim Easton who was commissioned to do the rethink study is an ex-86ers and CMNT player. Again I would point people to the It's Called Football podcast to find out the inside scoop on what was recommended to the CSA and why.

[Juby]

If you don't know who Jim Easton is you clearly need to get up to speed on what is actually happening right now.

heh, you have this habit of falsely linking 'big names' to your point, just to pretend it has legs. The number of times he's tried to invoke the names of Victor Montagliani and Domenic Di Geronimo erroneosly to pretend he has a point, and the only connection is always just bbtb lied about both.

People questioning your 'sources' is a natural consequence of lieing so much... (duh).

Ohhh and the topic is a 'working national d-3?', Not 'bbtb repeats his opposition to the topic for the millionth time'. We all know your preference for american leagues, your moaning about domestic leagues and your creepy little biases, so why don't you put them in the approapriate thread instead using the topic as a platform to talk about the exact opposite.

In other words, stop wasting everyone's time repeating your 'points' in a thread that is clearly the opposite of your 'points' (why don't I go into conservative threads and argue left wing politics there? Because I'm not trying to harass them out of there opinions). No one is stopping you from starting threads that would make your 'points' the topic, you just know that much like your blog, no one will read it. (aha)

edit: I'll try to tone it down again, but just once can we avoid getting this thread bogged down with silly 'arguements' just designed to inflame the ignorant? How about for once the silly 'points' of someone with an obvious anti topic bias doesn't take this thread off topic? I haven't even given my idea's on a national system (on topic), but bbtb is already overposting against us just discussing the topic.

[ThiKu]

BBTB wrote in post #11:" You also can't have been paying too close attention to the 86ers in the late 80s the last time there was an attempt at a coast to coast league."

BBTB then writes in post #14:"at no point did I compare what was happening in the CSL in the late 80s to today."

Sorry big fella but the comment in post #11 is exactly comparing late 80's to what is being discussed.

Just a tip BBTB - the point is to discuss a workable Div3 - feel free to share your idea of what that is but otherwise no one wants to hear why you think something will not work. This is a "forward thinking, positive thinking" particular thread. If you'd like to discuss why something doesn't work please feel free to start a counter-thread.

Re: Jim Easton - if you meant a particular fella and know full well there is another fella with the same name that can potentially cause confusion please be clear to whom you are referencing.

@Juby - this is the last time I will reply to BBTB in this thread. I'd encourage you to do the same. However, if someone remarks on a BBTB quote and that person is mislead...feel free to set that commenter straight!

[ThiKu]

My idea of nationwide D3.

u23-focused league

West: 3-4 BC clubs, 2-4 Alberta Clubs, Sask? = roughly 8

Central: Winnipeg (unless makes more sense in West?), 4-8 Ontario clubs, = roughly 8 clubs

East: 4-6 Quebec clubs, 1-2 maritimes clubs = roughly 6 clubs (join Central if possible in which case Winnipeg defo in West)

Minimum salary of $1500 per month, salary-capped league, travel (hotel and flight), beer, TV sponsors, internet streams, compete in Canadian Championship, 8 month league (indoors venues approved), minimum coaching certification.

*Entry to Can Champ would be on qualification-basis, have minimum stadium and financial requirements satisfied, and would have prelim round with non-MLS teams prior to competing. (similar to the FA Cup).

The D3 is the critical step. Has to have a heavy youth focus and be seriously professional.

D2 teams probably need to simply start by joining NASL or USL Pro as is appropriate. Then if 6+ are functioning with stability expansion can be looked at by adding MLS reserve teams and maybe Club Canada to a D2 level on top of the D3....I wish we could have a D2 but I don't see it happening until teams are stable in the American leagues. They can then leave those leagues to join a Canada-only.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Repeating the same non-sequitor even after it has been pointed out to be one is nothing but a waste of bandwidth. Jim Easton was part of one of the most noteworthy domestic pro teams in Canadian soccer history. The 1989 86ers team that had an unprecedented run of games in which they went undefeated. He also played for the team this board is supposed to be all about i.e. the Canadian national team. He is somebody that an older Whitecaps fan like Ted could reasonably be expected to have heard of based on his playing career in addition to his role with the feasibility study that the CSA commissioned.

The D2 national league fantasy that is being discussed in this thread (apparently based on a misconception of what is meant by D3 in a CSA as opposed to USSF sanctioning context) was rejected as being not viable at this time. The recommendation made was to pursue something a lot closer to Dino Rossi's League1Ontario concept. Unfortunately there has been no word so far of the CSA giving them the green light to pursue phase two of the study on that basis. Listen to the podcast clip if you have no idea what I am referring to on that.

[Juby]

@Juby - this is the last time I will reply to BBTB in this thread. I'd encourage you to do the same. However, if someone remarks on a BBTB quote and that person is mislead...feel free to set that commenter straight!

Yeah, I'll try and shut it down once I close him off here,

Repeating the same non-sequitor even after it has been pointed out to be one is nothing but a waste of bandwidth. Jim Easton was part of one of the most noteworthy domestic pro teams in Canadian soccer history. The 1989 Whitecaps team that had an unprecedented run of games in which they went undefeated. He also played for the team this board is supposed to be all about i.e. the Canadian national team. He is somebody that an older Whitecaps fan like Ted could reasonably be expected to have heard of based on his playing career in addition to his role with the feasibility study that the CSA commissioned. .

Your accusing him of wasting bandwidth, how many times have repeated a point that made you look ignorant? How many times have you blatanly contridicted yourself? How many times have posted flat out lies? And you comment on other peoples bandwidth use? And how do all your extreme speculations rate on that scale? Your false speculations usually just required more thought on your part and their incorrectness makes invariably makes them a waste but were do these distractions rate on the great important bandwidth scale Mr 3500 posts (excluding occasional sock puppets)?

The D2 national league fantasies that are being discussed in this thread were rejected as being not viable at this time. The recommendation made was to pursue something a lot closer to Dino Rossi's League1Ontario concept. Unfortunately there has been no word so far of the CSA giving them the green light to pursue phase two of the study on that basis. Listen to the podcast clip if you have no idea what I am referring to on that.

This thread is about a national d3 (check title), yet here, he really goes after us and our D-2 fantasies? Also, when you link or reference someone, you have to explain, it's like how he used to tell us to 'google it' or posted a link, give a big speech on a soap box and then it turns out the link is unrelated, already posted, old etc..

Haha, still argueing against regional d3's with anti national d-2 points and vice versa (is looking stupid worth wasting time?)?

Can you source this 'recommendation' you keep referring to to? Can you give examples that somehow, inexplicably link theoretical parts of a league that still doesn't exist, like how does Dino Rossi's ideas actually highlight what your saying? How do they specifically resemble each other and how are they, or how are they not related to actual existing infrastructure (like the CSL model)?

Literally, how many old topics are filled with BBTB nonsensically argueing that we shouldn't be talking about the topic? That's not an on topic point ffs. Think politics, you could have threads for argueing fiscal liberalism against socialism, but your still going to have topics between socialism ON socialism and it would be inappropriate for a conservative waste everyone's time in that dialogue by making off topic conservative points under the guise of politics in general.

[Juby]

ohhh and to get it back on topic, I just thought I'd repeat a concept we came up with in an older thread. We looked at how much it could cost to operate a league from Saskatoon to Victoria. IIRC the results were about 350 000$ expenditure, not too far from triple the CSL cost but we did factor in double CSL salaries. So in theory we do the see the rising of costs but it also doesn't seem completly unrealistic.

[Redcoatsforever]

ohhh and to get it back on topic, I just thought I'd repeat a concept we came up with in an older thread. We looked at how much it could cost to operate a league from Saskatoon to Victoria. IIRC the results were about 350 000$ expenditure, not too far from triple the CSL cost but we did factor in double CSL salaries. So in theory we do the see the rising of costs but it also doesn't seem completly unrealistic.

Where do Manitoban clubs wind up in such a league? Lumped in with Ontario?

[Juby]

Where do Manitoban clubs wind up in such a league? Lumped in with Ontario?

It's a tricky question, one reason we came up with the Saskatoon to Victoria concept was to create a very targeted idea over an odd but pretty populated region (custom made division to overcome our usual issues). To be fair though it does strand Regina through Thunder Bay a bit. Other factors came into play though, like questions about whether Regina would be able to embrace a team given their population and the rough riders (which is why a cut off in saskatchewan seemed normal if were trying to put aside historical and political factors).

It's not perfect but here is when I wouldn't even mind seeing american leagues used to fill a few gaps. It might be doubtful but maybe the regina-winnipeg-thunder bay line could provide an understandably more basic division until we had the teams to make a national division (to properly take advantage of the sizeable Winnipeg market)?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Where do Manitoban clubs wind up...

If you want to deal with reality rather than fantasy check out this recent interview with David Downs, the commisioner of the NASL:

http://www.cansoc.org/showthread.php?43923-NASL-expansion-in-Canada&p=443657&viewfull=1#post443657

The key thing to note is that there is no more talk of waiting for the CSA to deal with the moratorium issue. Instead mention is made of engaging with several potential markets in Canada. Winnipeg would be a prime suspect.

On further Canadian expansion:

“We have definitely been engaged with several potential markets.”

But Downs said, because all discussions are in the preliminary stages, that he wouldn’t want to divulge exactly which Canadian markets at which the league is looking.

“I wouldn’t say Canada is a number-one priority,” said Downs. “For us, the number-one priority is the west coast of the United States and filling out the Midwest. But, with the success Montreal and Edmonton have had in our league, it is clear Canada is a fertile ground for professional soccer, and we would be remiss not to look at other opportunities there.”

Also worth noting that the mechanism that was cited by Peter Montopoli on an It's Called Football podcast for generating a national league (i.e. stadium funding for the 2015 Womens' World Cup) is now being talked about as the way FC Edmonton will get a suitable stadium for NASL games:

On FC Edmonton’s move from Foote Field to Clarke Stadium:

“Everything I have been told about it is very positive. But it’s not perfect; that won’t come until a new Women’s World Cup stadium is constructed in Edmonton, and the team will be involved in that.”

[Juby]

For the love of god, stop pretending you have a point. THE THREAD IS CALLED D3, NOT D-2, WHYTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT NASL!? Why are you linking a thread called 'expansion into NASL' to this thread? IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SAY, DON'T SAY NONSENSE JUST TO WASTE OUR TIME! And while I'm at it, why are you linking to threads instead of the actual link?

Btw, here's the very next line you ignore:

"And those American markets?

Downs cofirmed that NASL’s sights are set on San Diego, Phoenix, Albuquerque, Las Vegas, Sacramento and the greater Los Angeles area (Anaheim, Riverside)."

Gee whiz, I wonder why you wouldn't show the whole quote???

Also, everyone should be aware the extra quote after bbtb comments is NOT PETER MONTOPOLI, it's more from the same forum post (presumably David Downs), So why is he acting like their's anything suspicious about him not talking up potential competition? Why would the commish of NASL talk about a potential canadian d-3? And therefore, why would no mention mean ANYTHING! It's just the dumbest point, Why would we derive points from being ignored by someone talking about a different topic. Stop being a TROLL.

Now the most frequent poster in this thread is a person who keeps talking about why we shouldn't have a national d-2??? It's all off topic, he's making long nonsense points, he's clearly completely uninterested in the topic. This is pure trolling, at best he's in the wrong forum, at worst he's purposely trying to grind the actual conversation to a halt by making us sift through his off topic crap. Why the hell should we waste time argueing over the topic he links, WHEN WE COULD JUST GO THAT THREAD AND BE ON TOPIC.

This is really funny BTW, you know for a fact that NASL discussion has nothing to do with the moratorium. You see when the moratorium first started, a certain somebody freaked out about how it would affect the NASL teams (even though it wouldn't), to clarify, the CSA immidiately responded by making it clear it would not affect the NASL. Until that point, that person wasted our time pretending the sky was falling, and that person was of course BBTB. So why exactly would David Downs not mentioning a moratorium that doesn't affect him mean ANYTHING?

[gwsmith63]

LMFAO.

You two really need to get a room and beat the *&%# out of each other.