ThiKu Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 ^My own personal hopes and dreams! If a Canada D3 is of the same level as USL Pro then ya, aim for higher stadium capacity minimums than 1000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianfoot Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Based upon what exactly? Economics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 ^Really? 1,000 fans per game would make for one sad bankrupt D2. The Highlanders have the 8th highest attendance in the PDl at roughly 1,000 and they are still losing money. We can't force a D2 if we don't have the teams, It would be like the (original) CSL all over again. We need to crawl before we can walk. If we have some teams pop up at the D3 level which draw 1,000 a game thats fantastic. They can take all of the money they would have wasted on travel and put it back into the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianfoot Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Seems to be confusion here. TREAD is D3........and ONLY D3 league Read post #122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Think you'll find that what you envisage is quite a bit higher than what the CSA has in place as the sanctioning standard for D3. Total budgets of about $150k is where the bar is set from what I remember of threads on the CSL, L1O and the new Quebec league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianfoot Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 correct we were talking about something of a higher caliber than we currently have. I was mentioning that more than a few players would be paid. Salary alone is $150k.....then again everyone sees a D3 differently. A few paid players(like 5 in new Quebec League I believe) and salary cap Or all paid players, which will be extremely hard to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I suspect a D3 would be a few pro's with loads of u-23's. Very regionalized. So basically a step-up from PDL in terms of level of play, based on the pro's. But of course who knows what pro's they'd sign b/c who knows what the pay structure would look like. 500 minimum for seats in an SSS with high fence that is tarped (not just some ugly blue tarp, but a proper white tarp with league logos, team logos, sponsor logos etc - such as was at Swangard. Teams can have much larger stadiums - like Victoria who would likely get 1500 plus on a regular basis in a higher level. But 500 minimum. Then expand as possible. Every community has a Soccer-Specific field that could be fenced and some nice bleachers brought in. A d2 would need much higher standards, but not what we're discussing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Seems to be confusion here. TREAD is D3........and ONLY D3 league Read post #122 No confusion. I was replying to post #124 which mentions that if we can get crowds of over 1000 it should be D2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 ^Exactly. As this is a D3 I suggested minimum 500 crowds, and to expect 1000 would be more like a D2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted August 6, 2012 Author Share Posted August 6, 2012 ...I suggested minimum 500 crowds, and to expect 1000 would be more like a D2. And that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I find that absurdly pessimistic and that is my opinion. USL Pro is D3 BTW, We already have D2 in Canada it is called the NASL. And even if a national D3 is "regionalized" it will still have a higher profile and easier task marketing than the current D4 PDL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 ^I'd love to be proven wrong, ted. I really really would. Sincerely. Keep in mind a D3 in Canada does not necessarily equal a D3 in USA. Canada doesn't have a "D2" - Canada has teams in an American D2. I would hope any kind of nationwide circuit, be it regional u23/D3, national D2 etc there would be a lot of marketing and what not going on based on the minimum standards of SSS, tv/online, etc etc. Victoria is getting great crowds. I imagine if Victoria was in a regional D3 that is Canada-specific that included streaming and access to the Can Championship etc that those numbers would go up. But what are the other PDL Canadian teams getting? Mariners get....I shudder to think? WAGS coming to watch? What about FCL or TB? Winnipeg? I don't know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 www.kenn.com You'll find ranked attendance there for just about every soccer team in the USA & Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 That's a great link and somewhat justifies my assertion that the *minimum* seating requirements for a nationwide D3 should be 500. According to Kenn's admittedly unofficial stats FC London is at 507/game and TB is just above them at 539/game. So when I say *minimum* I am saying each team in the league across the nation must have a SSS with ability to seat comfortably 500 paying fans, with safe exists. Teams like Victoria can feel free to have a large stand and likely will fill it, but a team like Abbotsford, for example, would be tickled pink to get 300 paying fans, leaving 200 empty seats. Heck, I am sure they'd love 50 paying fans......and this would be the case across the country. Now, would Abbotsford get 500 if this league was streamed online, had connection with CSA, the Canadian Championship, some television, good marketing, SSS, and no access to watch the game from "the other side of the fence" b/c there was tarping blocking the views? Definitely. I am positive a place like Abbotsford and anywhere else in Canada under those conditions would get 500 paying customers fairly regularly if not exceed, and place like Victoria might get 2000?...? This is all in reference to a D3 that has some semi-pro's, and some of the "top" u18 talent in the region on their team all fighting for spots on various youth Canadian national teams as well, not to mention scouting by the MLS and NASL clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 To be fair to London, they did average over 1,000 a game when they were at TD Waterhouse stadium, including over 1,600 their first year. It's dropped the last few years since moving to Cove Road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiKu Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 ^I have no doubt there are communities across the country that would regularly average 1000/game at a D3 level if the stadium situations were right etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red and White Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 ^I have no doubt there are communities across the country that would regularly average 1000/game at a D3 level if the stadium situations were right etc etc. No doubt at all. Looking at the support the women's team have been given over the last couple of weeks, I think its obvious that Canadians understand and are willing to support soccer, but only if given something respectable to support. Pro soccer can easily draw figures in the 1000's per game if a professional atmosphere is delivered, as opposed to a university or amateur setting. I don't need to remind anyone that we broke attendance records at the 2007 U-20 World Cup, when, again, Canadians were given something respectable to support. The perceived quality of a league can be improved just by having teams play in fairly large stadiums, with proper facilities, concessions, etc. Personally, I believe a Canadian league similar in size and stature to NASL can be successful (with 8-10 teams). But frankly, I'm getting frustrated thinking about it, because I'm starting to doubt we'll ever get anything more than what we have now (MLS + NASL and a large array of leagues filling our div. 3). At the very least, I'd like to think that the amount of support Canadians are starting to accumulate (between the WNT, 2007 U-20 WQ, and even our MLS teams) will lead to more sponsorship cash flowing in (add the upcoming 2015 WWC for extra measure as well). One less hurdle for a Canadian league, right? What ever happened to that study the CSA was supposed to have finished in the spring of this year? I remember they got a recommended league structure (regional div.3 I believe). Are they planning on putting that into motion anytime soon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianfoot Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Seems we are "reviewing" our version of D3 from what it was in the first few pages. But all is good the lower the costs the more realistic for a Canadian D3 side(for me a CANADIAN D3 is lower than USL Pro but Higher than PDL/CSL/PSCL, etc....whilte D2 would be somewhere around NASL or Higher than USL Pro). ThiKu mentioned 500 seats. That does not mean that "only" 500 people will attend, what was meant was 500 seats GrandStand as a minimum requirement. Fence all around, Changing Rooms and maybe some concessions.......Of course some team will draw more while others will draw less. But "Every League Needs A Minimum" in terms of requirements and in terms of revenue. BBTB mentioned 150k per season and examples of the new Quebec League. All is fine, I originally wrote in regards to a league where all the players were paid(some as players others as players/coaches....) 150k is doable but we have too look at the BiG picture whenever it will be actually "slightly" higher than PDL/PSCL/CSL/L1O/New Quebec League if we manage to achieve a higher level then I say Mission Accomplie. Roster would have to be reduced slightly to maybe 20-22players max. Only a few players would make any money the rest would have to be thru coaching/clinics you name it. And of course some guys would play for free......while others on loan. Here is where I see it.... 150k will the tough but it is feasable. 10team league (18games Total plus Play-Offs say TOP 4 so 20game guaranteed) 20games/4games a month give us 5months SEASON plus and Extra 4-8weeks Pre-Season with some Exhibition Games So for the sake of simplyfing things 6months Season including Pre-Season and possible Play-Offs. 6players @ 1500/months x 6months that is 54k for the season. Let say you have another 5players that are Coaches/Players and they are actually paid by the operating club That give you the 50% of your current roster(realistically you might have 2-3players/coahces on your team). What about the other 11? Some might be students, NCAA players(PDL type) or just local boys. finding 11 might be hard But not Impossible. One solution although hard to concieve would be to have the Whitecaps and FC Edmonton give players in ther Residency/Development on loan as to where they cover most of the cost but you get 0$ transfer money.... say 10teams 2players Per team that's 20players or 10 for Whitecaps/FC Edmonton(giving the West Coast Example since I live here.) Of course everyone has to agree the players on "loan" would be for the season( 1/2 minimum) as not to get shorthanded suddenly. You would be left with 96k in the budget for: -travel -insurance -equipment(might have thru you soccer clube setup) -facilities rental(might have thru Soccer Clube Setup) -FO/Coaches Payroll(might have thru your soccer club setup) -Marketing The coaches might be already paid a salary thru a soccer school setup or something soe the costs might be lowered. On thing for sure for me personnally is that a roster of say 22players I would only allow maybe 6players Over 23yrs of age. and Max 6 Imports(including US Players). With a "minimum of say 3xU19 players" on the Pitch at any given time. 500 STH @ 8$ per game x 9home games=36k 100 Walkups @ 10$ per game x 9 home game=9k Facilities rent say 1500$ Per Game x 9= 13500$ It would be doable as long as there is a League Sponsor(Telecom or wahtever) and your venue actually is somehere where people can get too Easily. No one wants to go "hunting" in order to find a soccer stadium. If one has already a socccer shcool setup like say the Victoria Highlanders one might get player to play for "free" at the D3 level just for the sake of being discovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Because this is a national team oriented board it's natural for people to think in terms of national structures but the provincial associations have a lot of power and influence so it doesn't necessarily always work like that in practice where Canadian soccer is concerned. What's described above is fairly close to the League One Ontario concept being pushed by the OSA right now. http://www.league1ontario.com/ It will be interesting to see if they have their eight teams for 2013 in place by this month as mentioned on their website back in April. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juby Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 ugghh, Just because you can run a league through a provincial association, doesn't mean it's nexessarily a better or more apt route, especially since a lot of people here would clearly like to see a few multi province divisions. The thread is called 'a workable national d-3' not 'an already propsed, provincial d1'. He wants to talk but he doesn't want to talk about this topic, instead of trying to change national brainstorming threads into L1O, just start a L1O thread. Also, in an earlier post you had said the d-3 standard was set at 150 000$ expenditure??? That's not the D-3 standard, the new Quebec league started at maybe two thirds that and of course the hypothetical L1O being provincial is estimating even smaller budgets to start. Edit: also 'What's described above is fairly close to the'... CSL and the PLSQ for two existing examples, but you decided to pretend that everyone was describing a less apt (provincial vs regional) and hypothetical example? Really this was just a poor excuse to go off topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcoatsforever Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Because this is a national team oriented board it's natural for people to think in terms of national structures but the provincial associations have a lot of power and influence so it doesn't necessarily always work like that in practice where Canadian soccer is concerned. What's described above is fairly close to the League One Ontario concept being pushed by the OSA right now. http://www.league1ontario.com/ It will be interesting to see if they have their eight teams for 2013 in place by this month as mentioned on their website back in April. I fail to see how a league that's applying for sanction from the OSA can be considered as being "pushed by the OSA right now". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red and White Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 So why are you talking about someone elses off topic ideas? He wants to talk but he doesn't want to talk about the topic, he should just start a L1O topic... Instead of trying to change national brainstorming threads into L1O, just start a L1O thread. If you're referring to me, then alright, I'll stop contributing to these discussions with this last post. I have little hope of getting any decent leagues in this country anyway. The domestic soccer scene is messed up here. Only our big three cities get unquestionably professional soccer that is capable of drawing and keeping interest. After that, secondary cities get to take shots at something similar with NASL. If they don't get it, the best they can hope for is playing in amateur settings in front of fans who may or may not stick around. Before NASL came around to poach more of our cities into American leagues, WHY DID WE NOT HAVE SOMETHING SIMILAR RUNNING? All we ever do is come up with excuses as to why it CAN'T happen. Travel, money, etc, are obstacles to any league. NASL has to deal with them too, but they survive. We're just not trying hard enough. Its like a kid in school saying they couldn't do their homework because they couldn't find a pencil. NASL is certainly getting their homework done, and their attendance figures aren't exactly impressive (1.5k-2.5k average?). MLS had to rely on the 2007 TFC to show them how to support a team. Unfortunate that Toronto fans showed Americans how to support footie, instead of fellow Canadians. I don't know why I'm getting frustrated actually. My city has managed to win the NASL lottery. I suppose I feel bad for Canadian in fairly large cities who don't have attention-grabbing soccer to support. Its also a massive missed opportunity for player development and supporter growth for our national teams. I know you're going to tell me I've gone of topic again. Well I suppose this will be the last time one of my posts does that. And, that league 1 Ontario website sucks. I love how the FAQ section has no frequently asked questions, or the fact that it hasn't been updated since April. Just goes to show how much the CSA (or OSA in this case) cares about domestic soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juby Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I was talking to bbtb edit: At the very least I think the range of this requires national d-3 sanctioning, so any idea that just breaks out of it's province to even a low level pro national division below NASL is on topic. I'm just trying to curb bbtb trying to go off topic, L1O isn't bad but it's no more on topic then for me to tell you all to talk about the CSL in paticular. Also, if you picked up on me being a jackass, don't be worried, your at least half right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maccaliam Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 EDIT: Juby has clarified who he was referring to himself, and therefore doesn't need me to do it as well . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red and White Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 oh, Sorry about that Juby. My apologies. I know this will seem hypocritical, but I'll retract my statement about not discussing future domestic leagues on here. Although honestly, I don't have much more to contribute, so I'll probably stop doing it anyway. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianfoot Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 LOL this forum cracks me up sometimes. And the internet can definitely lead to a confusing situation sometimes. Anyway back to footie. A D3 can be run within provinces or interprovincial boundries all depends on the territory being covered. Nothing in that regards is set in stone, but what should be Set in Stone by the CSA are basic Minimum Requirement that each league neeeds to achieve in order to have D3 status and Official Sanctioning by the CSA not just the provinces. A clear set of rules and standards to be met. The league(s) all I care can be called whatever they like have provincial or interprovincial boundries as long as they produce development and revenue at the end. And a National Championship for the winner of inter D3 leagues. If ALL D3 Leagues in this country have the same Standards and a Clear path to follow they will be basically "conferences" in a way. Or WHL,OHL,LJMQ, etc After a few years each "league/conference" will be able to judge which team can compete(not necessairly sports wise) on a financial level for a future D2 in Canada. BBTB mentioned L1O well I suggest to read some of their requirements and other info they have available in PDF format. Quite interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.