Defending the Whitecaps

[masster]

The Whitecaps have been taking a lot of heat for the lack of Canadians on their roster. Obviously, as a fan of the national team, I would love to watch more Canadians play day in and day out on my local team. Not only that, I think having domestic players is important as it helps build the bond between a fan base and the club. As we are seeing in Montreal however, finding capable Canadians to 'make up the numbers' is hard enough, let alone contribute consistently on the field.

Over the last couple of days however, the anti-Whitecap theme has kind of changed to them not giving young players a chance. I take exception to this feeling as it simply is not based on fact.

-It was the Whitecaps who gave a 17 year old Ethan Gage a chance, and when his contract ran out, it was Gage's choice to go to Europe. The Whitecaps did not release him.

-The Whitecaps gave an opportunity to Marcus Haber after he was let go in the Netherlands. He flourished and was sold to West Brom. After his injury, it was Haber's choice to stay in Europe with St. Johnstone (and it looks like a good choice).

-It was Porter's decision not to accept the MLS development contract the Whitecaps offered him after coming through the Residency system. From a playing time perspective, it has turned out to be a good decision for him.

-It was Randy Edwini-Bonsu who asked for his release so he could explore European options. Obviously this has worked out for him as well.

All of these players could realistically still be on the Whitecaps MLS roster...but their ambitions lay elsewhere. Can we blame the Whitecaps for that? I don't think so. I don't think we can blame the players either, because they have all (except perhaps for Gage) made wise career moves that are allowing them to play regularly at a decent level. As national team supporters, we should applaud this.

Let us not forget about Adam Straith, although he never played a game for the senior team, whose move to Cottbus was facilitated by the Whitecaps. Same goes for Julien Latendresse-Levesque. Even now, as we lament the release of Phil Davies, we need to realize that his career will be better served by going somewhere he can play 90 minutes every week, not the occasional MLS Reserve Game.

Even with all of these names gone, there remains Teibert, Alderson and Fisk (who will be signed this season, if not by the end of training camp).

If you still don't think that is sufficient, look at all of the Canadian players the Whitecaps have taken a look at in the last couple of years in their lead up to MLS:

Alex Elliott

Michael D'Agostino

Michael Nonni

Tyler Rosenlund

Keegan Ayre

Martin John

Kevin Cobby

Alex Semenets

Derrick Bassi

Brandon Bonifacio

That is only off the top of my head! This list includes plenty of youth internationals, this countries supposed best young players, and they still weren't deemed good enough. What then? The Whitecaps even sniffed around Jacob Lensky during his first retirement (when he was still Canadian).

So as much as I hate to sound like a Whitecaps apologist, show me these great young players that should be getting all this playing time. Until then, I'm tired of the remarks because they are simply foolish.

[Grizzly]

You are completely missing the point. In recent history until MLS the Caps were pretty good at developing and playing Canadians. Then they got into MLS and did a complete reversal and pressured the league to put a ridiculously low Canadian quota. Then on top of that they made a mockery of the quota by filling it with a guy who wasn't really a Canadian in any sense other than having citizenship by birth (the MLS' website's Caps reporter calls him a loophole Canadian as well as stating the Cap's Canadian policy is "less as more"), a youth player who they played sparingly even though he looked good when he did play (though admittedly injuries played their role) and a youth player who did not play at all despite numerous underperforming players and who seems to have been on the roster to merely fill the quota. Oh yeah and there was that other guy who was at least a passable MLS level midfielder and hometown boy to boot who they traded to the other Canadian club for allocation money and future considerations.

The cases you mention as good examples are all from the NASL days when the Caps were good Canadian citizens. Now they are bad Canadian citizens and completely deserving of the criticism they are getting. Hopefully they are hearing it and it will modify their behaviour. Or at least hopefully under Rennie they will go back to promoting Canadian talent.

Masimo you are the equivalent to someone trying to convince a guy that he has a good girlfriend after he found out she had cheated on him for the last year because for the 5 previous years she was faithful to him. However, if Vancouver mends their ways they will be loved by Canadian fans again but if not they will fully deserve all the criticism they are getting.

And as far as Montreal goes, I will be the first to criticize them if we do not have adequate Canadian talent or trade our hometown player halfway through the season. I think we are already ahead of where Vancouver was last year, with one projected starter/top player who is Canadian, a trial camp that should produce at least one or two additional Canadian players and the recent drafting of two Canadian players. Yes Sutton as 3rd keeper does not count much but I hope we will have more than the 3 required Canadians.

[Soccerpro]

You are completely missing the point. In recent history until MLS the Caps were pretty good at developing and playing Canadians. Then they got into MLS and did a complete reversal and pressured the league to put a ridiculously low Canadian quota. Then on top of that they made a mockery of the quota by filling it with a guy who wasn't really a Canadian in any sense other than having citizenship by birth (the MLS' website's Caps reporter calls him a loophole Canadian as well as stating the Cap's Canadian policy is "less as more"), a youth player who they played sparingly even though he looked good when he did play (though admittedly injuries played their role) and a youth player who did not play at all despite numerous underperforming players and who seems to have been on the roster to merely fill the quota. Oh yeah and there was that other guy who was at least a passable MLS level midfielder and hometown boy to boot who they traded to the other Canadian club for allocation money and future considerations.

The cases you mention as good examples are all from the NASL days when the Caps were good Canadian citizens. Now they are bad Canadian citizens and completely deserving of the criticism they are getting. Hopefully they are hearing it and it will modify their behaviour. Or at least hopefully under Rennie they will go back to promoting Canadian talent.

Masimo you are the equivalent to someone trying to convince a guy that he has a good girlfriend after he found out she had cheated on him for the last year because for the 5 previous years she was faithful to him. However, if Vancouver mends their ways they will be loved by Canadian fans again but if not they will fully deserve all the criticism they are getting.

And as far as Montreal goes, I will be the first to criticize them if we do not have adequate Canadian talent or trade our hometown player halfway through the season. I think we are already ahead of where Vancouver was last year, with one projected starter/top player who is Canadian, a trial camp that should produce at least one or two additional Canadian players and the recent drafting of two Canadian players. Yes Sutton as 3rd keeper does not count much but I hope we will have more than the 3 required Canadians.

+1.....

The caps last year had no problem consistently losing with crap mediocre American talent (too many names to list) but they refused to play Phil Davies once!! Don't give me that BS about Canadian players not being up to standard in that type of situation. If you're losing with Peter ****ing Venegas as your mid then why not lose with Phillip Davies as your mid.

Yes the caps have done great things in their NASL days for Canadians, they didn't do anything last year. I don't place all of the blame on the organization itself, I direct my fury towards one man: Tom Soehn.

[Unnamed Trialist]

You are completely missing the point. In recent history until MLS the Caps were pretty good at developing and playing Canadians. Then they got into MLS and did a complete reversal and pressured the league to put a ridiculously low Canadian quota. Then on top of that they made a mockery of the quota by filling it with a guy who wasn't really a Canadian in any sense other than having citizenship by birth (the MLS' website's Caps reporter calls him a loophole Canadian as well as stating the Cap's Canadian policy is "less as more"), a youth player who they played sparingly even though he looked good when he did play (though admittedly injuries played their role) and a youth player who did not play at all despite numerous underperforming players and who seems to have been on the roster to merely fill the quota. Oh yeah and there was that other guy who was at least a passable MLS level midfielder and hometown boy to boot who they traded to the other Canadian club for allocation money and future considerations.

The cases you mention as good examples are all from the NASL days when the Caps were good Canadian citizens. Now they are bad Canadian citizens and completely deserving of the criticism they are getting. Hopefully they are hearing it and it will modify their behaviour. Or at least hopefully under Rennie they will go back to promoting Canadian talent.

Masimo you are the equivalent to someone trying to convince a guy that he has a good girlfriend after he found out she had cheated on him for the last year because for the 5 previous years she was faithful to him. However, if Vancouver mends their ways they will be loved by Canadian fans again but if not they will fully deserve all the criticism they are getting.

And as far as Montreal goes, I will be the first to criticize them if we do not have adequate Canadian talent or trade our hometown player halfway through the season. I think we are already ahead of where Vancouver was last year, with one projected starter/top player who is Canadian, a trial camp that should produce at least one or two additional Canadian players and the recent drafting of two Canadian players. Yes Sutton as 3rd keeper does not count much but I hope we will have more than the 3 required Canadians.

From start to finish. Only the person responsible is Lenarduzzi, who has abdicated as a legit representative of Vancouver soccer.

What is especially sad is that the team had talent and often played in a very entertaining way, though you could not say more than two or maybe three Americans were part of that. Some bad results were bad luck. So having some Canucks in there would not have taken anything away and at least given us something more than the scrub filler, mostly from the US, that was like dead circuits between occasional sparks.

[Cheeta]

Far as I'm concerned they can go to Hell and share a molten lava filled cave with the pukes over at the CSA who abdicated their responsibility to ensure Canadian teams paying to play in an American league played under the same domestic quota rules as the USA based franchises. There. I said it.

And don't trot out the argument "Oh, there isn't enough domestic(Canadian) talent. The franchise would be a disaster." bit. Kerfoot and Saputo didn't sign $35,000,000 cheques without planning. And part of that planning was to destroy the quota system for Canadians from day #1 for their own purposes. Just like Trader Mo advised. I was going to write Kerfoot & Saputo aren't idiots but anybody who takes any page out of Trader Mo's Playbook for Success in MLS can't be called a genius.

'Caps can say whatever they want but it's all just a bunch of mouth. It's what they've done and are doing which matters. They're going to have to wear this policy for a long, long time.

P.S. Thanks for pushing the button. This should be fun.

[finchster]

There were too many excuses from the Caps organization last year from top to bottom. As a Caps fan, I am disappointed with the direction of the team and I cannot defend anything they did last year. While they have a history of developing Canadian talent, pushing for the elimination of the quota eliminated the good they did. I don’t deny with three Canadian MLS teams there needed to be a reduction, but three is pitiful and the way the caps handled this was shameful.

I won’t turn my back on the Caps, but if fans keep making excuses for poor management and the current ‘promotion’ (or lack thereof) of Canadian soccer then nothing will change.

[Lord Bob]

It's possible to want the Whitecaps to sign Canadians without advocating protectionist quotas that may be great for Andrea Lombardo and Cristian Nunez but don't do much for Canadian soccer.

[Macksam]

I got over the quota thing a long time ago. However, I am miffed the organization let Soehn treat the Canadian talent the way he did.

[Lord Bob]

I got over the quota thing a long time ago. However, I am miffed the organization let Soehn treat the Canadian talent the way he did.

Yeah, they should have shown their disapproval with Soehn's management by kicking him where he can do no harm and putting some fresh blood in charge; maybe a young NASL head coach with a history of success.

[Macksam]

Yeah, they should have shown their disapproval with Soehn's management by kicking him where he can do no harm and putting some fresh blood in charge; maybe a young NASL head coach with a history of success.

Notice how I was speaking in past tense

[Soccerpro]

Yeah, they should have shown their disapproval with Soehn's management by kicking him where he can do no harm and putting some fresh blood in charge; maybe a young NASL head coach with a history of success.

Kicking him where he can do no harm? To me that means no longer in the whitecaps organization, what's his title now? It doesn't exactly sound powerless to me..

[finchster]

Kicking him where he can do no harm? To me that means no longer in the whitecaps organization, what's his title now? It doesn't exactly sound powerless to me..

Yup Soehn shouldn't have any job with the Caps, but yet he does.

[Lord Bob]

Soehn doesn't make player decisions anymore. He's got blanket permission to talk to other teams about taking a job. He is, basically, kept on the payroll to lend advice and save both him and the organization the embarrassment of a firing.

[finchster]

Soehn doesn't make player decisions anymore. He's got blanket permission to talk to other teams about taking a job. He is, basically, kept on the payroll to lend advice and save both him and the organization the embarrassment of a firing.

Have any proof of this? Soehn is Director of Soccer Operations, the same job he held prior to replacing TT. So they saved the embarrassment of a firing by letting him return to the same job he held prior to managing the club? Soehn wasn’t hired to be a manager, he was hired as Director of Soccer Operations and letting him return to this position doesn’t suggest what you are stating.

[Grizzly]

Soehn doesn't make player decisions anymore. He's got blanket permission to talk to other teams about taking a job. He is, basically, kept on the payroll to lend advice and save both him and the organization the embarrassment of a firing.

Either way, it is the wrong way to do things. It is not good to have an emasculated former boss hanging around or if he does have some power, it is not good to have an incompetent involved in decisions. Not that the Impact situation with NDS is much different.

[canucklefan]

There's a very interesting link was posted by Soccerpro in http://www.cansoc.org/showthread.php?43632-ESPN-article-on-youth-development-(American-coaches-but-applicable-to-Canada)

Here's a direct link: http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/7468594/prominent-us-coaches-discuss-problems-american-soccer-leander-schaerlaeckens

The title of the article is "How to improve US soccer". I'll post quote what I thought to be the most interesting comment from the article news:

Thomas Rongen, academy director, Toronto FC

Résumé highlights: U.S. U-20 national team coach, 2001-2005 and 2006-2010; 1999 MLS Cup winner

"I think there are two components that, to me, are very important that right now we're not addressing and if we don't, we'll continue to produce pretty good but not great players. First, we need full-time skills teachers at the youngest levels who can teach in a game context, through repetition, proper technique for both feet that's required at the highest level. In the successful countries, you see the best coaches at the youngest ages. We still fall short there, because coaches are paid much more to oversee the older players.

During the NASL days, the Whitecaps were considered the best club to develop young players in the country. Can we say they are still the best club in that regard? Do they still care about it?

[Lord Bob]

Have any proof of this? Soehn is Director of Soccer Operations, the same job he held prior to replacing TT. So they saved the embarrassment of a firing by letting him return to the same job he held prior to managing the club? Soehn wasn’t hired to be a manager, he was hired as Director of Soccer Operations and letting him return to this position doesn’t suggest what you are stating.

It is, I confess, a surmise from the following data points:

1) Martin Rennie, according to himself, has final say on player personnel decisions. He also is picking his own coaching staff.

2) This was not the case during the Thordarson-Soehn era, where Thordarson had input but the decision was Soehn's.

3) The Whitecaps let Soehn negotiate for a job with Colorado and didn't seem too cut-up that he might leave.

4) Soehn no longer has much of a public role; he doesn't appear at press conferences, etc. Previously, as he was the guy signing the player, he would speak even mor ethan Teitur about why he went after the player he did.

5) Every time the Whitecaps make any personnel change, certain people wave it around as evidence that Vancouver is dysfunctional as **** and why can't they have any stability?

[tmcmurph]

+1.....

Yes the caps have done great things in their NASL days for Canadians, they didn't do anything last year. I don't place all of the blame on the organization itself, I direct my fury towards one man: Tom Soehn.

Yes he really had a preference for NCAA players over any academy product, Canadian or other. We'll see what Martin brings us this year. So far we have a lot of experienced players and I think he is trying to setup a winning team first off and secondly to create a situation where the academy players are pushing them for a spot.

It is too bad that Phil didn't stay but I can understand MLS minimum wage rejection. Good luck in your career Phil.

PS. finchster; can you say "glorified scout"? TS ain't doing much. It is all Martin and that is as it should have been.

[ThiKu]

There's a very interesting link was posted by Soccerpro in http://www.cansoc.org/showthread.php?43632-ESPN-article-on-youth-development-(American-coaches-but-applicable-to-Canada)

Here's a direct link: http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/7468594/prominent-us-coaches-discuss-problems-american-soccer-leander-schaerlaeckens

The title of the article is "How to improve US soccer". I'll post quote what I thought to be the most interesting comment from the article news:

Thomas Rongen, academy director, Toronto FC

Résumé highlights: U.S. U-20 national team coach, 2001-2005 and 2006-2010; 1999 MLS Cup winner

"I think there are two components that, to me, are very important that right now we're not addressing and if we don't, we'll continue to produce pretty good but not great players. First, we need full-time skills teachers at the youngest levels who can teach in a game context, through repetition, proper technique for both feet that's required at the highest level. In the successful countries, you see the best coaches at the youngest ages. We still fall short there, because coaches are paid much more to oversee the older players.

During the NASL days, the Whitecaps were considered the best club to develop young players in the country. Can we say they are still the best club in that regard? Do they still care about it?

As much as I agree with this - particularly age 6-10 - the problem is the kids sign-up to play soccer. Not repeatedly pass the ball back and forth. Which is how some folks will take this comment. I realize there are many ways etc etc - and I do speak from first-hand as I have been coaching 10-11 year olds the last two years. They don't mind putting in the work if they see the benefit but also always have the most intense focus during the 3v3 or 4v4 - which is a great place to work on touch, movement, etc...everything really.

[youllneverwalkalone]

T

During the NASL days, the Whitecaps were considered the best club to develop young players in the country. Can we say they are still the best club in that regard? Do they still care about it?

Although several Canadians obviously played for the Caps from 1974-84, the vast majority of the starting 11 was always foreign. Bruce Wilson, Buzz Parsons, the Lenarduzzis, Glen Johnson, Gerry Gray, and maybe Brian Budd pretty much covers the list of players "developed" in that era. There was nothing even remotely comparable to the current Residency program. And in 2021, you'll have a list 10 times as long and much more impressive in terms of development. I have no doubt. As mentioned, the USL Caps have already surpassed what the NASL Caps were able to produce. Many of these coming from the Residency program that is only 5 years old, ffs.

What remains however, is Lenarduzzi. When I voiced my displeasure with the quota to him, he flat out told me that the he didn't believe the current residency grads were at a high enough level. He had no comment for the obvious rebuttal that the MLS level is quite low when it comes to most NCAA grads. I don't really know what to make of his comments, but it left me with the impression that he thinks he came through in an era when Canadians had to be better than foreigners to make it in the NASL. Fair enough, though he doesn't seem to acknowledge that, given the current MLS American quota system, this analysis falls apart in 2012.

Developing footballers is an art and a science that hundreds of academies the world over struggle to get even 10% right. It's completely unfair to expect the Whitecaps to exceed the high-end of the average from bringing academy players through to the first team. If Clarke and Fisk sign by March 10, that we'll be 4 players to graduate to the first team in 2 years. I realize that Winter signed 4 guys in one year alone, but generally speaking I don't think any other clubs in the world are doing much better than the Whitecaps. Two players per year is my guess as to what would be considered a high integration rate. Rennie has hired a coach specifically to transition players between the levels. He's clearly thinking about this issue and is one of the few coaches in the World to have top UEFA licensing at both the youth and senior levels.

Finally, like Massimo, I have grown really tired of the hate. One guy has some derogatory comments about BC in his Vs signature. How does that make sense? The Residency and families in Burnaby are taking in your kids from all across this country and giving them a chance at professional training. Is Halifax FC doing this? Saskatoon FC? St. John's FC? Only people from Toronto can levy criticism with any creditbility. The Residency is an integral part of the Whitecaps Football Club and slamming the club for it's lack of Canadian content is completely ignorant unless you acknowledge the work being done at the U14, U16, and U18 level where these kids are receiving top instruction from top UEFA trained coaches.

The Cascadian which is growing in me, and I think others who support the Caps, is actually quite glad that the U14 level is almost exclusively local players. Obviously the "Residency" suggests that we will continue to recruit from around the country, but frankly, I don't care if we do or do not. My hope is that with Fisk and Clarke, that we see the beginning of a new era for BC players who start to join the first team and/or who go on to succeed abroad as Straith and Haber have done recently.

[Drew Shaw]

Yes, the stupid anti-BC signature line that someone here uses, on a web site for supporters of Canadian soccer, has to be the stupidest thing on this website.

[ThiKu]

haha, glad to see people upset about something other than an anti-QC note for once! imagine if someone slammed the fleur-de-lis!?

Yep, anti-anything Canada in a sig is ridiculous to be here for sure....dumby.

[Strider]

it left me with the impression that he thinks he came through in an era when Canadians had to be better than foreigners to make it in the NASL. Fair enough, though he doesn't seem to acknowledge that, given the current MLS American quota system, this analysis falls apart in 2012.

In 1973 the Philadelphia Atoms won the title with a mainly American squad. But that was the end as the expansion Los Angeles Aztecs won with a largely Latino club; And when the New York Cosmos signed Pelé in 1975 it was game over expecting to win with local talent. By 1981 the NASL put a quota on the need for a minimum number of American/Canadians on the field, due to the rash of foreign signings.

Though the League folded in 1984 the plan was to gradually increase this quota. Check out the influx of English signings on the Whitecaps in 1979, for example. Canadians had a 5 year (6 if you include indoor) head start on foreign competition prior to 1979.

[masster]

Sorry for taking so long to reply and thus digging up a now dead thread but allow me to respond to some of the comments that have been made.

First off, I am not a fan of the quota and I am ashamed that my club was a part of reducing it to the current number. However, the fact that Vancouver last year and Montreal this year will most likely have players around just to meet this already low quota should be an indication to us CMNT fans that we are perhaps over estimating the talent and/or preparedness of some of our young players.

Secondly to slam the Whitecaps for their Canadian MLS record while ignoring what happened in the A-League and USL days is putting way too much emphasis on a small sample size and minimizing the considerable talent gap between the leagues that I and many others were guilty of doing.

The appreciation of Canadian talent between the Teitur and Soehn regimes was like night and day. Teitur understood the importance of local/Canadian players, which is why he signed Davies and Harmse and really wanted Porter to be around. Soehn didn't give a flying ****. As we obviously saw, everything Soehn touched was a nightmare. Now that the club has effectively castrated him, I am confident things will at least swing back to some sort of equilibrium.

Finally, those that are making the argument that the Whitecaps were bad so they might as well have played Canadians have no idea how much the poor record has hurt season ticket renewals. The teams’ goal should always be to win games, not to be some sort of charity case. Obviously, they didn't do a very good job last season, but the fact is that if the Whitecaps would have gone with a midfield of Dunfield, Harmse and Davies, they would have been even worse. It pains me to say it. I admire those players and wish them the best, but removing my maple leaf glasses and watching these guys with my own eyes, it is fact.