CSL Toronto Croatia visits British Columpbia for game...

[ted]

Most of you older folks are pretty cynicle on here, especially Richard. You have seen soccer fail in North America, and you are slow to get your hopes up at all. Pretty bitter and it shows.

I resemble that remark! Although at only 43 I hope it's not too late to learn some new tricks.

I am young, not from Canada and new and excited about soccer. I only started getting interested with the Toronto FC being on the CBC. Everything is positive, and soccer will only be bigger and more succesful from here on out with maybe a few small dips and dives.

I was exactly where you are after the '94 World Cup. I think you make some good points and certainly the kind of passion you bring can be a really positive thing. You are right about ups and downs and certainly after a lot of downs it can be hard to get excited. It does however also lend some perspective that can also be useful.

Keep those guns blazing...just keep 'em aimed the right direction

[DJones]

Just for some update on football in BC that might shed some light on the potential of this encounter...

The past year a super league involving the Vancouver Metro League, Vancouver Island Select League and the Fraser Valley Select League was proposed and attempts to ratify the league went on for more than a year. It collapsed as some wanted it and others did not. The VMSL is considered the top men's league in BC and many people felt that the way that teams were going to be selected into the league was a problem. The VMSL (players, coaches, team administrators) felt that they didn't need the new league as teams from the other leagues would bring down the calibre compared to the current VMSL. The VMSL has a lot of former 86'ers/Whitecaps and the extra travel to the Island and interior was something that many didn't want to happen. If you wanted that type of travel league, join a league like the PCSL.

In saying that, most involved feel a need for a top tiered league but the semantics is what kept it from happening. Some want to continue the talks while others want it to die.

To read more on the breakdown:

http://www.takethepiss.com/forums/bc-soccer-general-discussion/14776-bcpl-bc-premier-league-proposal.html?daysprune=-1

Now, there is talk of a youth elite league that has all the youth heavy hitters currently involved ; BC Soccer, Vancouver Whitecaps, Super Y League representation, Girls Metro and Boys Select league representatives, District representatives and members of the big youth clubs. The seriousness of the project seems to be evident with the suggestion of the end of the provincial team program (I agree with this), the end of BC's Super Y League involvement (I don't agree with this) and a filtering of the players out of this league into the Whitecaps U17 and U19 programs.

There is also talk of getting a Champions League set up with Washington State, Oregon (already exists in those two states) and Alberta (once they solve their issues) with the intent of a Canadian league similar to the Super Y League and hopefully a Canadian version of a USSDA. The hope is that this will expand to all the provinces and be the top tier of youth soccer across Canada with one website and true qualification for a national final.

CSL would like to start/has a youth program and talks with them could be fruitful in creating a east and west division.

Problem is that this is Canadian soccer and there are a lot of people who are looking out for their little empires.

Could be interesting.

[Macksam]

Just for some update on football in BC that might shed some light on the potential of this encounter...

The past year a super league involving the Vancouver Metro League, Vancouver Island Select League and the Fraser Valley Select League was proposed and attempts to ratify the league went on for more than a year. It collapsed as some wanted it and others did not. The VMSL is considered the top men's league in BC and many people felt that the way that teams were going to be selected into the league was a problem. The VMSL (players, coaches, team administrators) felt that they didn't need the new league as teams from the other leagues would bring down the calibre compared to the current VMSL. The VMSL has a lot of former 86'ers/Whitecaps and the extra travel to the Island and interior was something that many didn't want to happen. If you wanted that type of travel league, join a league like the PCSL.

In saying that, most involved feel a need for a top tiered league but the semantics is what kept it from happening. Some want to continue the talks while others want it to die.

To read more on the breakdown:

http://www.takethepiss.com/forums/bc-soccer-general-discussion/14776-bcpl-bc-premier-league-proposal.html?daysprune=-1

Now, there is talk of a youth elite league that has all the youth heavy hitters currently involved ; BC Soccer, Vancouver Whitecaps, Super Y League representation, Girls Metro and Boys Select league representatives, District representatives and members of the big youth clubs. The seriousness of the project seems to be evident with the suggestion of the end of the provincial team program (I agree with this), the end of BC's Super Y League involvement (I don't agree with this) and a filtering of the players out of this league into the Whitecaps U17 and U19 programs.

There is also talk of getting a Champions League set up with Washington State, Oregon (already exists in those two states) and Alberta (once they solve their issues) with the intent of a Canadian league similar to the Super Y League and hopefully a Canadian version of a USSDA. The hope is that this will expand to all the provinces and be the top tier of youth soccer across Canada with one website and true qualification for a national final.

CSL would like to start/has a youth program and talks with them could be fruitful in creating a east and west division.

Problem is that this is Canadian soccer and there are a lot of people who are looking out for their little empires.

Could be interesting.

If BC goes down this route, I whole heartedly support it. A place for developing youth is really important.

[DJones]

If BC goes down this route, I whole heartedly support it. A place for developing youth is really important.

It is vital for our national programs to improve. Our U17's and U20's are struggling because too many players are left out of the identification system and not enough players are in an environment that has standards like clubs do in first world soccer nations.

If this league comes to fruition like it could be, a league like this will at least keep us on pace with the yanks - forget everybody else. To rely on 3 pro teams to do it all is a recipe for disaster! The US has 75 clubs producing players in a similar program to USSF/Bradenton academy and TFC with the same standards and guidelines BUT with a national league to play in. In two years, at our pace, we will have 3 clubs with no league to play in. If we stay the same, we will never, ever catch up.

We are going through a lean spell and I don't see it getting better for a few more qualification rounds.

To think that we only need to develop 20 good youth players is suicide. Defections, life changing decisions, drugs/alcohol, injury, lack of continual development and lack of opportunities can change that number to zero really quick.

[Alex D]

This is veering even more off topic, but what if 20 year old CSL players were MLS draft eligible? Of-course MLS academy players would be off-limits and there would have to be small transfer fees (maybe a set amount based on draft position) involved, but this would be great incentive to keep our best U20's playing in Canada and get more Canadians into MLS.

[Macksam]

This is veering even more off topic, but what if 20 year old CSL players were MLS draft eligible? Of-course MLS academy players would be off-limits and there would have to be small transfer fees (maybe a set amount based on draft position) involved, but this would be great incentive to keep our best U20's playing in Canada and get more Canadians into MLS.

This is what I see in the future for the CSL.

[bettermirror]

Now, there is talk of a youth elite league that has all the youth heavy hitters currently involved ; BC Soccer, Vancouver Whitecaps, Super Y League representation, Girls Metro and Boys Select league representatives, District representatives and members of the big youth clubs. The seriousness of the project seems to be evident with the suggestion of the end of the provincial team program (I agree with this), the end of BC's Super Y League involvement (I don't agree with this) and a filtering of the players out of this league into the Whitecaps U17 and U19 programs.

There is also talk of getting a Champions League set up with Washington State, Oregon (already exists in those two states) and Alberta (once they solve their issues) with the intent of a Canadian league similar to the Super Y League and hopefully a Canadian version of a USSDA. The hope is that this will expand to all the provinces and be the top tier of youth soccer across Canada with one website and true qualification for a national final.

Could be interesting.

Exactly, DJones. I have the ear of one of the organizers of the youth league, and it's all good. And will stretch to involve u11 to one degree or another. Thank goodness. The regional championship idea is a great one. The winners of which can then enter tourny's such as Surf Cup, or something in Texas, and possibly continue with the SYL finals.

A "Canadian Super Y League" would be better than being involved in the American one...if it meant direct filtering into the MLS clubs. I am a supporter of trashing the Provincial Programs. I am a supporter of separating from SYL, but only if a regional league with Oregon/Wash is replacing it and/or a Canadian SYL.

[Vic]

DJones thanks very much for sharing all that. It all sounds interesting. The best part is people have development on their minds and are talking and at least on the surface open to the best possible solution. Only good can come of that. And same as with the thread title, I hope people rise above their politics and achieve greatness.

It is vital for our national programs to improve. Our U17's and U20's are struggling because too many players are left out of the identification system and not enough players are in an environment that has standards like clubs do in first world soccer nations.

Changes like both the CSL & BC are proposing in terms of youth infrastructure are great positive steps. But it's the main side dish, the real problem is how do we magically summon hundreds of coaches to match the infrastructure. We have a good supply of coaches who can take the simple mind and atheltics of a child and get them to the top of the world game at 13, but we do not have the talented coaches to get them from 14-17. I would guesstimate that we have 2-3% of countries like Germany, France, and Holland by comparative per capita standards.

At the top end of youth competitive soccer kids pay $3,000 - $8,000 a year all-in (travel, hotels, fees, training, coaching, league fees, tournament fees, club fees, pizza parties, etc). Their money goes 5-10% into coaching and at minimum 50% into things that do nothing to develop the player. Flipping that around so that it goes into coaching in a healthy ratio and providing a professional-ish framework is fantastic, natural and evolutionary - but good money and fancy clothes don't make the emperor. Without a supply of coaches who can take kids from 14-17 all the money in the world and right moves organizationally can't turn out better players. The players will be the same posers the coaches are.

We need to find a way to bring in great coaches from weak economies who will accept the paycheque.

[foreverthursday]

Please don't lock this. I just wanted to add one last thing, because I was pondering it for a long time today, and I am not sure if Richard checks his inbox often.

Richard,

I want to head down to Vancouver sometime next season to a Whitecaps game, and maybe I can take you for dinner before. I am not being sarcastic or fake right now. I know I have been unpleasent towards you, and I am very sorry. A lot of people on here really respect your opinions.

And my name is Daniel.

[JohnnyCanuck]

I'm going to the game tonite, actually looking forward to it.

It's worth noting a few things.

ACBC Finished as the class of the FVSL last season, winning the FVSL Premier Division and losing the Pakenham Cup in the semi's to the eventual winners.

ACBC had a falling out with the management of the PCSL (the best quality summer league run in BC), which Richard is a part of, over a game scheduled to be played in Kamloops or Kelowna during the final of the World Cup, this was the straw that broke the camels back in an ongoing feud over ACBC being upset that the league was never ultimately what they were promised, and the rates to pay to play in the league stayed static, even though less games were being played and the competition isn't as good as it used to be.

ACBC was then suspended by the PCSL, but it's not really a suspension afterall is it if BC Soccer and the CSL and CSA Sanctioned this game.

I'm no ACBC apologist. I'm just stating what I know/heard/read.

read here for the story on the fallout between ACBC and the PCSL:

the poster "ghouse" is the guy that runs Athletic Club of BC.

[Lord Bob]

The game ended 3-2 for Athletic Club of BC. A pretty good game - not good in the sense that the level of play was really high but good in the sense that it was entertaining. Got quite rough in patches and a few cards were handed out. Athletic Club #9 scored the prettiest goal of the game, but unfortunately I can't appear to find an ACBC roster for love or money.

I wrote a rather-too-long post about the matter at http://www.eightysixforever.com/2010/8/28/1655288/toronto-croatia-visits-british

[DerHoota]

#9 is Admir Salihovic. Played against him a few times. Hes got a lot of skill but an attitude. I think he played in Serbia for a few months about a year or 2 ago.

[Lord Bob]

Thanks. He was certain, shall we say, playing a confident game, but he also had the skill to back that confidence up so I emerged quite impressed.

[Vancouversoccerman]

Nice piece of writing, Lord Bob.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Salihovic won the FVSL Premier Golden Boot last year, also played for the Whitecaps on and off for a number of years. I believe he was born in the former yugoslavia and has played for Bosnia's Youth National team before. He DID go to Serbia for trials with their top league teams but returned to Vancouver.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I wrote a rather-too-long post about the matter at http://www.eightysixforever.com/2010/8/28/1655288/toronto-croatia-visits-british

On reading the blog entry comment from the ACBC "owner" about a $2000 league fee in the PCSL being "huge" my first thought was wait until he finds out what's involved financially in a CSL context. Sure enough on a recent It's Called Football podcast after the interview with a Toronto Croatia player about the game in BC the word is that the BC clubs are not ready for that:

http://www.24thminute.com/2010/09/its-called-football-live_02.html

{relevant bit is from about 23:00 to 24:50}

The thing to ponder maybe is whether in the absence of genuine full-time professionalism the players out on the field suddenly start to play way better than previously if you spend the extra money to meet the CSL's (probably in part also the CSA's in D3 sanctioning terms) "standards" and if the answer is no what exactly is the point?

[Richard]

The ACBC 'owner' was an enthusiastic promoter of and advocate for the PCSL and couldn't wait to join the league while money was no object for him. When he failed to meet his commitments by his second year in the league and was called on it, suddenly his tune changed. If he can't afford the PCSL or meet its relatively modest expectations - like fielding a team for scheduled games - he certainly couldn't afford the CSL.

[bettermirror]

Richard, Ghouse can't afford the costs on his own for CSL...but tell it like it is. He fielded a "for fun" side in PCSL; AND they scheduled a league game at the same time as the WORLD CUP FINAL!!! Are you kidding me? It was a meaningless game at that. Honestly, there is no excuse for not pushing the game forward or back 2 hours to accommodate. Rules are meant to be broken, especially in an amateur league - which PCSL very much is.

[Richard]

He couldn't field a team at all, did you not comprehend what I wrote? If he objected to the schedule he had weeks to request a change, all member clubs are well aware of the PCSL scheduling policy which is posted on the league website. He complained less than 48 hours before the scheduled kickoff. The PCSL is extraordinarily accommodating when it comes to scheduling, amateur or not, but the scheduling rules and procedure for requesting changes were well known to RG. He came to the PCSL and enthusiastically begged to be allowed to join, he was not sought out by the league. No other PCSL clubs had an issue with playing on the day in question because they planned well ahead. And if he fielded a for fun team it showed in their results - check the standings. I think there are many PCSL member clubs who would take issue with your apparent disdain for it being 'very much an an amateur league'.

[bettermirror]

Wow, Richard, you are a sweetheart. ^"Did you not comprehend..." I can see why folks take issue with you at times. How about keep it to a more professional demeanor from someone so well respected in the soccer community, eh? The PCSL is great for what it is. It really is. It is amateur (though some coaches get paid), and great for it. It took itself far too seriously in this case. "Weeks to request a change." Did the league itself not notice a small tournament in South Africa this summer? The PCSL itself is culpable for scheduling a game at the same time as the World Cup final. Not sure if World Cup sched was released before the PCSL sched....my guess is World Cup. Even if PCSL was out first. A simple email to the 8 teams basically involved stating "All games during World Cup final are to be adjusted so as not to conflict. Please advise of the time change you are able to reschedule for." The League itself "had weeks" to recognize the clash and reschedule. No other team should have been asked to play at the same time as the World Cup.

When the league establishes ID cards with actual photos of players on them, and avoids clashes with World Cup finals then it can call itself something other than amateur - and, you know, pays its players. By any definition its amateur.

"No other PCSL clubs had an issue with playing on the day in question because they planned well ahead." There was exactly one other game on the day in PCSL on the mens side. It was kicked-off at 3:30 - after the World Cup (barely). There were 2 women's premier games @ 2pm. None in mens or womens reserves. Did you ask those Womens premier teams if they had issue? NOT making a fuss is not evidence they weren't ticked off. I'd guess they were being polite Canadians because they didn't recognize the error in not requesting a re-schedule.

http://pcsl.org/schedule-men-premier.htm

I was at a tourny in the states at the same time. They scheduled exactly ZERO games during the World Cup final. So, let's see, a youth soccer tournament can reschedule DOZENS of games, when the PCSL can't look forward and reschedule ONE? All it required was a time shift.

Whether ACBC had a team to field or not is besides the point. My guess is the players said "not missing the final to drive up to Okanagan for a meaningless game, coach. Summer holidays and amateur league and all the rest of it..."

But this was totally avoidable with simple reasoning. World Cup takes precedence over ALL soccer matches on the day of the final.

By the by, calling something "purely amateur" and assuming that means disdain is all about you. The PCSL is wonderful. But it's amateur. Deal with it. Let's not think ourselves something we aren't. A place for kids to play.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You are not comparing like with like with that. In a league like the PCSL the schedule will often be carried in local newspapers and on websites etc and there is an expectation that members of the general public will show up to watch games based on that. That makes 48 hours unreasonably short notice to make a switch in a way that is not the case when the only people involved are participants and maybe some of their friends and family so they probably didn't want to set a precedent.

Way too much is read into the word "amateur" by some people and misleading assumptions are made about the approach to the game on that basis. In some European countries everything below the top full-time pro level is referred to as "amateur". For example, when Owen H_argreaves played for Bayern Munich's B team immediately prior to stepping up to the Bundesliga roster he was playing for a team referred to as FC Bayern München Amateure. I don't think anybody would try to compare that to a youth tournament simply on the basis of the word amateur.

[bettermirror]

You are not comparing like with like with that. In a league like the PCSL the schedule will often be carried in local newspapers and on websites etc and there is an expectation that members of the general public will show up to watch games based on that. That makes 48 hours unreasonably short notice to make a switch in a way that is not the case when the only people involved are participants and maybe some of their friends and family so they probably didn't want to set a precedent.

Way too much is read into the word "amateur" by some people and misleading assumptions are made about the approach to the game on that basis. In some European countries everything below the top full-time pro level is referred to as "amateur". For example, when Owen H_argreaves played for Bayern Munich's B team immediately prior to stepping up to the Bundesliga roster he was playing for a team referred to as FC Bayern München Amateure. I don't think anybody would try to compare that to a youth tournament simply on the basis of the word amateur.

Good points, BBTB. I say the fault lays with the PCSL itself though for scheduling games during the World Cup final, itself. 48 hours is too late. The coach should have noticed WELL before that. Ultimately, it is the leagues responsibility. As a coach I'd not check the exact kickoff time either until 48 hours ahead most likely, because I'd assume the league was smart enough not to schedule a game during the WC Final. Anyway....I'm sure you have a justification to share, Richard....something about the PCSL schedule and the 15 fans that attend games being more important than the WC Final.

(Nothing against those 15 fans...I was one of them at times this year!)

[Richard]

"As a coach I'd not check the exact kickoff time either until 48 hours ahead most likely..."

You've got to be kidding. Then you'd better hope you have a team manager who is a bit more responsible/professional and forward looking. The game in question was part of a two game weekend road trip, not unusual for an inter-city league. Several other games were scheduled for that weekend with nary a complaint from any other club in the league. And RG was not a neophyte to the PCSL, he had already played a full season, was well aware of the scheduling practice and policies albeit his club placed third from bottom in the standings the previous year.

And Bettermirror, you have clearly never attended a PCSL game in the BC interior.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Definitely obvious that bettermirror has never been involved in running a club or a league at an elite amateur level (i.e. top provincial or district league sort of level as opposed to "for fun" rec level leagues). In a rec league the two days before thing might be more or less applicable but at that level there will seldom be a coach once you move beyond youth soccer. Usually the captain of the team organizes things in a player-coach sort of way in my experience. With an elite amateur team that trains regularly on weeknights to play the game competitively at the sort of level where admission will sometimes be charged to spectators and scorelines will often rate a mention by the local media there will be a strong expectation that players will make it out to every single game. In that sort of environment not just the coach and club secretary but multiple players on the team will usually be checking through the entire season's schedule very carefully when they first receive it because they will be arranging their work schedule and social lives months in advance so they don't conflict with their soccer commitments.

It's almost comic that these guys took that long to realize there was a conflict with the World Cup final but it becomes somewhat understandable when you find out it was a lower division FVSL team that was involved (i.e. a group that probably had no business being in a league like the PCSL in the first place). Beyond that, one thing to bear in mind maybe is that one of the oldest tricks in the book that is often played by teams in remoter areas in elite amateur/semi-pro level leagues is to deliberately schedule home games at very awkward times for their opponents in the hope they will lack the commitment level required to field a full-strength team. Hence why London City tend to play on Friday evenings in a CSL context so GTA based teams have to drive down the 401 at breakneck speeds at the end of their regular work weeks.

[Richard]

Re away teams setting their schedule and London City - that sort of thing would not be permitted in the PCSL even if requested by the away club. The league is very cognizant of the demands that travelling places on all member teams. Indeed, the PCSL scheduling policy on their website states: "From three (3) weeks (21 days) before the playing season commences, schedule change requests must be submitted to the designated League official for consideration not less than three (3) weeks (21 days) prior to the affected schedule game dates. The PCSL will not consent to any changes otherwise, except under extreme circumstances beyond the control of the parties concerned." I think that makes it crystal clear. There were 34 teams playing in 4 PCSL divisions during the 2010 season. Many games were played during the WC including on the WC final Sunday, ACBC was the only team with a problem that weekend. The PCSL is a well run, elite league that expects a high level of commitment from its member clubs.