CSL Toronto Croatia visits British Columpbia for game...

[L.T.]

Can we try to reduce the condescending “that would never happen in MY league” attitudes? It has gotten tiresome. I look for any tidbit of information to educate myself on this level of soccer but the little jabs in EVERY post by a handful of people really make it hard to take.

BBTB was not talking about “away teams setting their schedule”. He was talking about the regular home date of London City, so along with being unnecessarily smug, your entire post is also irrelevant.

(personally I find traveling to St. Catharines on a Wednesday night much more annoying than a Friday night game in London…)

[Richard]

If you take statements of fact backed up with references to be condescending then so be it.

[L.T.]

Before my mini-rant totally derails the conversation (sorry in advance if it does), I'm still curious as to what BC folks think is the future of this level of soccer on the West Coast?

I fully agree with the notion that suddenly paying a player that was previously playing for free is not going to make him a better player - but I think there is more to going 'pro' than that.

At our club (Milltown FC), a handful of pro contracts have gone to experienced foreign players that have brought some much needed international experience to this level. The professionalism shown by these players, even on a semi-pro salary, has been invaluable to our young Canadian players.

Do you think that opportunity exists in BC?

Could the investment required in 'going pro' (i.e. salaries, facility upgrades) be offset by attendance/sponsorship (enough to make it viable)?

Are there any individuals/groups that have shown an interest in bringing this type of league to BC, or will Vancouver in MLS/Victoria in NASL pretty much saturate the market?

I think we need to strive towards a structure (pro/amateur/mix whatever) that has strong clubs across the country that provide full-time development (I hate the whole philosophy of sharing players - PDL+university, Summer League+Winter League...) for the best players in their areas. If the means professional in Ontario but amateur in Nova Scotia, fine with me...

[Richard]

I think the two biggest problem will be a) finding owners/sponsors ready to pour the necessary money in to make it work, not many appear to have shown much interest so far and finding enough local players willing to undertake the travel necessary for the kind of league you have in mind. That in large part was what derailed the BC Premier League proposal that failed last year as far as I can tell.

[bettermirror]

OK, Richard - thanks and no thanks for the healthy discussion. It was you who was condascending. And rather offensive.

Re: not checking schedule more than 48 hours? Actually, you are right. I check the schedule at the beginning of the year, and then 7 days before each match, and again 3 days before each match. YA, I have egg on my face...I totally miswrote what I typed above about not checking..! My apologies for that. Any changes within 48 hours require a phone call in any league I've participated in, and failure to do so is a forfeit to the host team.

Yep, ACBC should have checked the schedule! I've conceded that. Have I not? But, honestly, how can you defend an "elite amateur" league scheduling games concurrently with the World Cup final???

Richard Wrote: "Many games were played during the WC including on the WC final Sunday, ACBC was the only team with a problem that weekend. The PCSL is a well run, elite league that expects a high level of commitment from its member clubs." No problem with games being same time as other World Cup games. BUT THE WORLD CUP FINAL? C'mon. You have to concede it takes precedence? Surely. Heck, all of Brazil takes a holiday for a Brazilian friendly match.

BBTB - I think the point is not checking well in advance, which ACBC should have done, but that ACBC was quite correct in believing the league game would never be at the same time as the WC Final. Turns out they were wrong to assume that.

L.T. - yep, there is a great chance for professionalism to grow here on the west coast! For sure there is. Like Richard, and MANY others, I sure hope the BC Premier League comes off. It's a WONDERFUL idea! I can imagine the youth development prospects in such a league as well. Richard is correct re: the committment to travel. A large part, it appears, is that the Vancouver Metro league really is the premier league and they are probably correct in believing they weren't being adequately represented.

[Richard]

My firm tone was a response to earlier posts which tended to put down the PCSL, rather offensively I might add so I sense a bit of the old pot and kettle here, if you interpret that as my being condescending and offensive then so be it.

As for the BC Premier League, the VMSL president (now VP I see) himself was the one carrying the torch for the BC Premier League and was thoroughly ticked off when his own member clubs voted it down.

[bettermirror]

Yes, it's a real shame about the VMSL not wanting to be a part - yep, I know the prez was behind VMSL joining, but clubs not wanting to.

Agree to disagree eh Rich? You were a prick, and so was I - according to each other. Moving on? Though I find it odd you still haven't stated whether you think a pretty meaningless PCSL game (in terms of the league table) should be played concurrently with the World Cup Final. If you don't think the WC Final should impact PCSL sched, that's fine (we'd really disagree then! ) - but you haven't actually answered the question.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I suspect the element you may still be missing, Bettermirror, is that Kamloops will probably have provided the league with a very limited set of dates and times when their home field was going to be available to them and may actually have been more than happy to play at the same time as the World cup final in the expectation that they would gain an advantage by having a higher commitment level than the visiting team.

Don't want to jump directly into a conversation between L.T. and Richard but the key issue on clubs being amateur and not being able to raise standards by bringing in experienced pro players from overseas (in a similar sort of way to state league clubs in Australia helping players emigrate) is that the provincial cups and national championships are still amateur only (for reasons that were originally tied into the old-fashioned ideas about amateurism that used to surround the Olympic movement and until very recently limited the options of players interested in an NCAA scholarship) and outside of the Golden Horseshoe that's still very much seen as the big prize within the sport so in institutional terms Canadian soccer is currently set up in a manner that places a very real limit on what top clubs can do (openly at least it's often an open secret that some amateur level players do actually get paid to play) to strengthen their teams.

Instead of reinventing the wheel by creating a completely new tier of the sport from coast to coast the obvious solution, in my opinion, is to make those top cup competitions open to clubs with players signed to semi-pro contracts, have the provincial associations allow teams in all the provincial and top district level leagues to openly sign players on a semi-pro basis if they can dream up the fundraisers required to fund it (a lot more difficult to do nowadays and less likely to happen than it would have been 20 to 30 years ago unfortunately) and then just let things grow organically from there.

[Richard]

"I find it odd you still haven't stated whether you think a pretty meaningless PCSL game (in terms of the league table) should be played concurrently with the World Cup Final."

I did not say that. I strove to make it clear that the PCSL publishes its schedule months before the season kicks off and invites clubs to review and request changes which are generally OK'd by the league. However from three weeks before season kicks off the league expects clubs to have reviewd the schedule and resolved their schedule issues, including any anticipated clashes that might affect the club's ability to perform. ACBC clearly neglected to do this. I suspect RG's reaction was in part due to his realising his error.

[ted]

I have to say that the PCSL (and even my beloved Highlanders) really screwed the pooch on the World Cup. They should have been finding ways to host or participate in viewing parties rather than schedule games in competition with WC matches especially for the final.

[bettermirror]

Richard - I know you didn't say you think the schedule takes precedence. I asked if you believe the PCSL should or should not respect the time the World Cup is being played make sure no matches are being played concurrently with the WC Final - play on the same date, sure, but not the same time. It's a simple question. I don't care what your position is (IE< I won't argue you), I am just very interested now!

Ted - excellent point re: Kamloops field availability. And yes, all leagues, the world-over, should respect the World Cup and have organized viewing parties - great idea! The tournament in Washington State did just that for the youth teams. No games when the Finals were being played. They played immediately before and after, but not during.

[Richard]

All clubs but ACBC made sure their games did not clash with other events where it mattered to them, before the season began, as provided for in the league scheduling policy. As far as I can recall there were no PCSL games scheduled concurrently with the WC final anyway. The league was told the players flatly refused to travel over that weekend at all because they wanted to watch the WC games on their big screen TVs at home. What sort of commitment is that?

Arranging viewing parties is an entirely different matter. For organisers of a weekend youth tournament to set up congregated WC viewing is very different from an elite adult league that has clubs from Kamloops to Victoria doing it. I think the suggestion is assinine frankly.

The PCSL record relative to any other league in the country speaks for itself really, doesn't require any defending by me.

[bettermirror]

Richard. Nevermind. *shakes head*. It was a pretty simple question...can't understand your refusal to answer. You win. I give up.

[Richard]

"...as I can recall there were no PCSL games scheduled concurrently with the WC final..."

Is that not an answer?

[Regs]

FWIW, the game was scheduled for KO in Kamloops @ 2PM

WC Final Kicked off at 11:30AM I believe and probably ended close to 2PM, no?

To put this into perspective, how many elite adult hockey leagues had games scheduled on February 28th, 2010 around noon?

[Richard]

The PCSL routinely invites clubs to advise their desired blocked dates before the schedule is even drawn up, then gives clubs almost three months to review their individual schedules before the schedule is frozen. The only club out of 35 in the league that had a problem with the WC was ACBC. I think objections being voiced here are being blown out of all proportion and are probably motivated by something other than the issue being discussed.

[bettermirror]

The PCSL routinely invites clubs to advise their desired blocked dates before the schedule is even drawn up, then gives clubs almost three months to review their individual schedules before the schedule is frozen. The only club out of 35 in the league that had a problem with the WC was ACBC. I think objections being voiced here are being blown out of all proportion and are probably motivated by something other than the issue being discussed.

If you say so, Richard. Are you sure you aren't in politics? Can't answer a simple Yes/No question.

Cheers.

[Richard]

You got an answer, at least twice, and as I said, the PCSL's 70+ year history doesn't need defending from the likes of me.

[bettermirror]

"...as I can recall there were no PCSL games scheduled concurrently with the WC final..."

Is that not an answer?

No. Because that wasn't my question.

Yes, Regs, I have no problem with games being on the same day. Already conceded that.

Um....anyway, very poor communication which I bet would have been solved over about 60 seconds if in person! Rich you think I was a prick, and I think you were a prick. We've punched each other in face. Ready to move on? I am. Cheers.

..

BACK ON TOPIC! Did anything decent come out of the ACBCvCSL game? (can't call it PCSLvCSL). The league members collaborated????

[Regs]

Yes, Regs, I have no problem with games being on the same day. Already conceded that.

My post was directed at Richard, not you BM - my point was that I find it difficult to believe that an elite adult hockey league would schedule games at or near the same time as the Olympic Gold medal game which was one of Richard's points concerning an elite adult soccer league.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I missed out on watching the 1998 World Cup final live because I was coaching a lower division amateur game in London, Ont. that the league in question refused to switch when contacted over a month in advance because conflict with the World Cup final didn't meet the criteria set out in the league constitution under which a game could be moved. I was less than pleased about that but could understand that they probably didn't want to set a precedent and was a lot more careful at scheduling meetings after that. The thing people are clearly missing here is that teams will often only be able to provide league execs with a very limited set of dates and times when they have access to their home fields making it very challenging to squeeze in a short summer season schedule in a manner that pleases everybody (e.g. games on long weekends, midweek or Sunday morning trips to the furthest geographical extremities of the league). The people who really should be asked what they were playing at on this are the Kamloops Excel, in my opinion.

[Regs]

A player from Kamloops said this:

"Can we also mention how this is a mean nothing game as ACBC and Kamloops have almost nothing to play for in terms of playoffs, 2011 draft picks, etc.

I play for Kamloops and I don't understand how anyone would want to be part of that game at that time (officials, spectators, players from both teams). Unless...we all agreed to all turn off phones, etc. and went directly into the changing room after to watch a PVR replay."

Granted, he's just a player but it sounds like they weren't really in favour of it either.

[bettermirror]

Regs and BBTB - good comments. I think in principal none of us would want a game at or very near the time of a WC Final - especially elite soccer players, amateur or otherwise. They want to watch! Heck, the Olympic hockey GOld medal game was concurrent with a youth soccer cup final and the boys were distracted enough! brutal.

anyway.....

BACK ON TOPIC: Anything come of the discussions between PCSL/BC soccer execs and CSL?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Posted on that a few pages back. Answer appears to be no:

http://www.cansoc.org/showthread.php?40523-CSL-Toronto-Croatia-visits-British-Columpbia-for-game...&p=367910&viewfull=1#post367910

[bettermirror]

The player said the clubs aren't ready. Sorry, can you add more notes on those comments he made. Was he referring to the financial aspect (make sense), or the footballing aspect? I'd imagine the top BC teams are behind those CSL teams in many ways on the field, but ACBC showed they'd compete game-to-game for sure. Realizing they would not have regular season matches between CSL and BC.