CSL Toronto Croatia visits British Columpbia for game...

[JohnnyCanuck]

In my VERY humble opinion on the matter:

A third rung pro league would calibre wise (out here in BC) be the same as the FVSL/VISL/VMSL Premier Divisions, and as such would simply water down the leagues, having say 4 or 5 from each league go "pro",

financially it would never fly, the VISL/VMSL/FVSL can't get their crap together to market and highlight themselves where they DON'T charge $$ to attend games... also you have to remember that the Southern Ontario to Montreal area is underserved. It's a massive populace...There you can serve up the equivalent to Premier Amateur Mens Soccer and charge $$ for tickets and claim to be "profesional" and you'll draw players and people will come. That will never happen out here. The space between towns etc is much more vast with WAY less people... Nobody will pay that here when only 5k show up to pay menial prices to see VWFC at Swangard in Burnaby, which (transportation issues aside) is smack dab in the very centre of the Metro Vancouver Area.

ACBC is really like fifth or sixth (calibre-wise) imho of the top amateur teams from BC... based on last year's final standings and the BC provincials you'd have to say that... Victoria Gorge(VISL), Surrey United FF, West Van, and a great many other VMSL teams would likely rank ahead of ACBC who only lost one game in the season sched in the FVSL Premier, and ACBC outplayed TMC's team at Swangard.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The player said the clubs aren't ready.....

The player had nothing to say on that subject. The info is in the It's Called Football podcast link at the time indicated.

[bettermirror]

BBTB - which means the player really didn't say much at all, then, doesn't it?

The area would embrace something like CSL - but as to Johnny's comments it would mean the demise of the VISL/VMSL/FVSL. As they stand.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I've already stated twice that the relevant part in the podcast is immediately after rather than during the interview with the Toronto Croatia player. Listen to the clip at the time I have indicated if you want to find out what was said by whom and on what basis.

[bettermirror]

Thanks for taking the time to comment BBTB....gracias. (no sarcasm).

[Richard]

BBTB - which means the player really didn't say much at all, then, doesn't it?

The area would embrace something like CSL - but as to Johnny's comments it would mean the demise of the VISL/VMSL/FVSL. As they stand.

It would certainly bump all the existing amateur leagues down a notch but I have to wonder how many of the VISL/VMSL/FVSL players would really be interested in making the commitment required to go professional or even semi-pro so the impact may not be so great after all. We saw this in the days of the Vancouver 86ers, there were many players who either declined invitations from the 86ers or gave up playing for them after a season or two because the money did not make up for the impact it had on their real jobs - the jobs that paid the rent and fed the family. Granted the travel demands wouldn't be quite so severe with a regional league but even then it could mean weekends away over an extended period.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

According to the info provided on a recent It's Called Football podcast there is no prospect of CSL expansion proceeding in BC in the near future so the point is moot in that context. I can remember a soccer journalist from the Vancouver area called Vic Bianchi (sadly no longer with us from what I remember) making himself very unpopular with Southsiders on the old network54 board by arguing that the 86ers/Whitecaps shouldn't be taken too seriously because they weren't able to attract all of the best players from the VMSL. Eventually when Greg Kerfoot became owner finances stabilized and the Whitecaps were able to move to a genuinely full-time pro setup and that ceased to be an issue but I suspect the failure to put sufficient finances together to attract the best players locally due to low crowds and a lack of deep-pocketed ownership could still be a problem for BC entries in the new USL Pro if the much rumoured D3 level western conference of the USL does get off the ground.

[Richard]

According to the info provided on a recent It's Called Football podcast there is no prospect of CSL expansion proceeding in BC in the near future so the point is moot in that context. I can remember a soccer journalist from the Vancouver area called Vic Bianchi (sadly no longer with us from what I remember) making himself very unpopular with Southsiders on the old network54 board by arguing that the 86ers/Whitecaps shouldn't be taken too seriously because they weren't able to attract all of the best players from the VMSL. Eventually when Greg Kerfoot became owner finances stabilized and the Whitecaps were able to move to a genuinely full-time pro setup and that ceased to be an issue but I suspect the failure to put sufficient finances together to attract the best players locally due to low crowds and a lack of deep-pocketed ownership could still be a problem for BC entries in the new USL Pro if the much rumoured D3 level western conference of the USL does get off the ground.

Agreed, a domestic attempt at CSL in BC would likely be a non-starter for commercial reasons. Lower mainland attempts at USL Pro would struggle too in my opinion though the Whitecaps might be able to make an entry successful by association. If the Victoria Highlanders went up to USL Pro I suspect they would be quite successful judging from the support they've enjoyed for their PDL club - it helps being on an island. ;-)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Latest on the It's Called Football podcast is that only 2 or 3 clubs in BC can meet the CSL's "standards". Given that may be very much tied into attaining D3 status with the CSL that sounds like an insurmountable hurdle to me. It would be easy enough to set up a network of regional leagues from coast to coast under the CSL's name if there were to be some realism about where that level of the sport is actually at right now. If 50 people are showing up for games in the GTA insisting on a rigid set of "standards" elsewhere to maintain some of the trappings but not the substance of pro level soccer is a case of putting the cart before the horse.

[bettermirror]

Agreed BBTB. Few teams could meet the standards. A Grandfathering approach would be best. Allow a regional CSL in BC, BUT, only allow those who meet the standards to be eligible for national competitions.

[Richard]

Then what would be the point, half baked, not-quite-CSL? Now there's a recipe for success!

[Bill Spiers]

Latest on the It's Called Football podcast is that only 2 or 3 clubs in BC can meet the CSL's "standards". Given that may be very much tied into attaining D3 status with the CSL that sounds like an insurmountable hurdle to me. It would be easy enough to set up a network of regional leagues from coast to coast under the CSL's name if there were to be some realism about where that level of the sport is actually at right now. If 50 people are showing up for games in the GTA insisting on a rigid set of "standards" elsewhere to maintain some of the trappings but not the substance of pro level soccer is a case of putting the cart before the horse.

Not sure that these are the CSL's standards as much as the CSA's standards for professional soccer. And these standards will apply to any team wishing to play professional or semi-professional soccer in Canada (whether in a Canadian league or a US-based league).

However, I'm still not clear on what the CSA's definition of semi-professional soccer is.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Oops one of those "CSL"s obviously should have been a "CSA" as Bill Spiers just indirectly pointed out. Find it hard to believe that the standards could be all that stringent if London City and the North York Astros are going to be involved but on the other hand there has been at least one hint on here from a league insider that the ownership "clique" made up of charter franchises won't be in control in future.

[Alex D]

^It's not even that the "clique" is trying to maintain total control by not allowing others from being full members. It's just that it was easier to expand by giving the option of paying a franchise fee and gaining a financial stake/decision making ability, or not paying a fee and becoming a "non equity member". The new teams that came in chose to be non equity members. It's not as sinister as you are making it out to be.

Anyhow, as the league grows the best will rise and the crap will fall. Any new team that comes in and raises the standard will push the old teams to compete or step aside. That is why there is some sentiment that if Forrest City were to go pro, they should go CSL instead of USL, because the league needs more strong clubs to force change.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The issues with the small clique of charter franchises predated last season's mini-expansion. There was the whole saga of the Ottawa Wizards being ousted from the league, for example, back when they were the only team in the league with something even vaguely resembling a full-time professional setup courtesy of Omur Sezerman's deep pockets. The word at that point was usually that key decisions like that were being made primarily by the owners of London City and the North York Astros.

As long as City hold the CSL franchise rights to London the point you make about Forest City joining is moot. There's no way in for them even if they wanted to go that route. Personally think if there are CSL franchises that want to take things to another level they should seriously consider joining forces with USL Pro rather than competing with it. Not sure who would be able to do it though as I don't see much scope for regular crowds of more than 2000 for any of the GTA based teams and there is the stumbling block of whether the Lynx still control the USL franchise rights to the Golden Horseshoe based on their PDL team.

[Alex D]

Im not so sure that drawing 2000 will be necessary for USLPRO. If you look at the teams they have signed up and ready to go, there are 3 teams that could top 2000 quite easily. The rest however will be lucky to average over 1000. There will be some stabile clubs in the 1200-1500 range but there will be an equal amount of clunkers pulling 500-800 a game. Brantford and the eastern block clubs could compete at this level but Brantford is a very small market for the USL and they don't seem keen on the idea of ethnic clubs.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Odds on most of the USL D3 level franchises that struggle to attract 1000 spectators won't be around 5 years from now, while those that attract over 2000 like the Charleston Battery will be. The USL are talking in terms of having four regional conferences covering the United States, Canada and the Caribbean. That's a completely different scale of operations from the CSL where just about everything happens within 2 hours drive of the CN tower in much the same way as in the corresponding elite amateur league, the OSL. USL Pro is aiming to be more like the original CSL in scope with expenses to match and the crowds of 100 or so that many/most present day CSL teams tend to attract can't even come close to sustaining that. Thirty years ago in the old NSL when the likes of Toronto Italia and Croatia could still routinely draw four figures crowds it would have been a different story but the GTA doesn't have that type of local soccer scene any more even if attitudes and expectations haven't fully adjusted to the present day reality yet.

Beyond that, how much of the Brantford Galaxy's announced attendance this summer actually been paid at the standard ticket rate as opposed to being based on comp tickets or massively discounted group deals involving local youth clubs etc? There have been other examples of new CSL franchises (e.g. Windsor Border Stars and Serbian White Eagles) initially drawing good crowds but having interest dwindle considerably in subsequent seasons. I'll be very surprised if the same trajectory isn't followed in Brantford's case.

[soccersmart]

Beyond that, how much of the Brantford Galaxy's announced attendance this summer actually been paid at the standard ticket rate as opposed to being based on comp tickets or massively discounted group deals involving local youth clubs etc? There have been other examples of new CSL franchises (e.g. Windsor Border Stars and Serbian White Eagles) initially drawing good crowds but having interest dwindle considerably in subsequent seasons. I'll be very surprised if the same trajectory isn't followed in Brantford's case.

As a fan of soccer in ontario, I asked myself how is it that the Brantford Galaxy can afford to pay their players with such low numbers of PAID attendance?

I have come to the conclusion after attending their past 6 home games and seeing their owner walk towards the pitch and speak to the players (DURING THE GAME!!!) that they are either paying with dirty money, or they are fixing their games.

How does a team with 10 imports from europe have enough money to pay these players with, lets just say 100 PAID spectators, most of them being discounted, so lets say they make $600 at the gate, where do they get the money to pay these guys from?????? I will tell you where it comes from...........match fixing!!!

I hope that people realize that this team was rumoured to do this from the start when the expansion talk started back in 2009.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Not sure if you have been influenced by the Declan Hill sort of stuff about match fixing but I think it should be taken with a pinch of salt. Online betting companies have the software needed to spot "unusual betting patterns" a mile off and would quickly pull the plug on the CSL games if there were even a hint of it happening. For example even in the former Yugoslavia people are getting arrested reasonably promptly these days when they try to fix games because people elsewhere in Europe can quickly spot that something very suspicious has happened:

http://forum.bettingadvice.com/showthread.php?p=1089223

Odds on the Galaxy had sufficient startup capital to commit to paying the salaries of the imports for one season (based on dirty money or otherwise and past links to the Hamilton Thunder do tend to set off alarm bells in that regard) and will now be downscaling their operations if they return for a second season.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The latest on the CSL's expansion plans courtesy of the TakeThePiss forum:

http://www.takethepiss.com/forums/attachments/bc-soccer-general-discussion/8377d1286552527-csl-pacific-division-csl-information-pdf

10k to enter, projected annual budgets of 150k with a minimum of 9 players being paid 3k each and $16.8k on league fees and registration. Assuming an average of $10 per spectator the breakeven point on the projected budget (based on what are probably optimistic projections of other potential revenue streams so likely to an underestimate) appears to be about 500 as paid attendance. Not too many CSL teams achieving that right now in the Golden Horseshoe so maybe not surprising that people appear to be skeptical that this could fly in a BC context:

http://www.takethepiss.com/forums/bc-soccer-general-discussion/16555-csl-pacific-division.html

[Raven]

Hmm On 24th Minute, Dominic Di Gironimo mentioned there was no expansion fee and the Pacific division may not be ready to go until 2012, but are trying to get it done. It will be also be interesting to see how this affects the NASL expansion into Canada, if as the CSL says it wants to be the layer below (2nd tier) the professional teams in the MLS.

[coppercanuck]

Major expansion into Eastern Ontario and Quebec? Awesome. BC Expansion may not be ready until 2012? Understandable. $10,000 expansion fee is "not exuberant"? Maybe. Seems high to me.

Look, in Ontario alone there were 56 teams with National ambitions via the Ontario Cup. London Portuguese, London Benfica, London Marconi, London/St. Thomas Croatia, London White Eagles and Champs AEK London FC. Add in Forest City London of the PDL and London City of the CSL all feeding off the 352,395 in London's 2006 Census. Really? I've got to figure that 10% of these teams can pony up the $10,000 and can run the proposed budget that the CSL is offering. The trick is to allow the teams a way of dropping back down if necessary ... without folding. These senior leagues all have a promotion / relegation system, it just needs another layer or 2 to combine the smaller leagues into a bigger concept, a professional concept.

BC, nay Vancouver can handle 6 teams. Vancouver, Surrey, Burnaby ... add Victoria and Saanich; should be easy. With a controlled tight plan, it should work.

The more I follow this topic, the more I'm ok with the city centred controlled build that the CSL is doing. Cover the Quebec-Windsor corridor and the Vancouver-Victoria and you've covered a fair chuck of Canada's population. Slowly add teams and expand those boundries, I think in 10 years you'll see some great players come out of that system.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

... without folding. These senior leagues all have a promotion / relegation system, it just needs another layer or 2 to combine the smaller leagues into a bigger concept, a professional concept....

All that really needs to change is for the Ontario Cup and National Championships to be in an open cup format (i.e. open to both amateur and semi-pro teams) and for teams in the top provincial and district leagues to be allowed to sign players openly on a semi-pro basis (rather than making payments under the table) for something similar to the state leagues in large Australian cities to be able to emerge. Somewhat bizarre that Canadian soccer still draws a distinction between amateur and semi-pro leagues at an elite competitive level (the word amateur does not imply a rec league in this context I'm referring to leagues like the OSL) about 40 years after that divide ceased to have practical relevance in most sporting contexts given the changes in eligibility in the Olympic Games. The focus should be to get all the best clubs in a large metropolitan area into a single division (with what happens out on the field of play being used to determine that based on pro/rel) and to try to market it properly as a niche spectator event worthy of some column inches in the main local newspaper and of a mention on local sports newscasts. The CSL name might be a useful vehicle for achieving that last bit.

[ted]

...the CSL says it wants to be the layer below (2nd tier) the professional teams in the MLS.

I think you mis-read somewhere or I missed some monumental dreaming. There is no way that the CSL could make a bid for Div II status at this point. I could see a reasonable case for Div III but anyone suggesting anything more is smoking something.

[BugerKing]

^ Are there formal criteria that a league must meet to be considered Div II or Div III? I've always wondered why there's so much talk about when there's no formal league structure in Canada (or North America) with promotion and relegation. Is it just semantics or there an official awarding these statuses?